VZ 24 (Czech Mauser)

[scoobysnacker]

I inherited this soldier from my dad, I'll try to get some nice photos shortly. It's not pristine, but definitely a great shooter. It's a carbine length bolt action rifle, chambered in 8mm Mauser, akin to the K98 but shorter. I went through some surplus rounds my dad got with it (not all), and it was a blast!

Ok, now a question- the surplus ammo is running out for this, and most of what's new is running around $1 a round, or more.

I say "most"; there is some Romanian steel cased new manufacture from PW Arms, price is under $.50 a round on some sites, and it's definitely got some tough reviews.

I took a chance, due to the price. Here's what I have found, and I am asking the forum for input regarding this, especially re: safety.

These are steel cased, green lacquer painted around the rim and the primer. I think there might be clear lacquer on the cases. I have not yet shot any.

I have manually cycled 1 box worth (20 rounds), loading them into the magazine, cycling them into chamber, cycling them to eject and chamber the next round. I did this keeping the barrel pointed to a safe area, with the safety engaged.

None are quite as smooth as the surplus, although to the naked eye the ammo appears to have the same dimensions, and they have the correct caliber marking on the box. The case head has SADU and 13 on it.

Of the 20 rds I cycled, I found maybe 14 or 15 to be just a little stiffer to close the bolt, a few more were much stiffer, and 2 to be extremely stiff. However, they did all close, using just 1 hand to work the bolt handle, other hand on the foregrip.

I suppose
question #1: is it safe to cycle ammo through like this, and then reuse it?

From everything I can see, the bullet does not seem to have set back any, but I don't know 100% just by eyeballing it.

Ok, back to the observations.
I did the same thing, loaded and cycled the same 20 rounds, again. This time around, the bolt worked a lot easier on them. I'd say 18 seem almost "normal", and 2 were "a little" stiff.

A third and forth time through the process, and all now are smooth; no worse than the surplus ammo. I don't see any marks on the cases, bullets or anything like that... they look identical to the unchambered rounds from another box.

Question #2: again, from a safety standpoint, would you say this is safe ammo to shoot?

I'm not looking to determine if this is good ammo to shoot at 500 yds for 1" groups, I want stuff to plink with, without dropping $20-$30 per box of 20, that won't endanger the rifle or shooter.
Thanks

 

[scoobysnacker]

To add, maybe help describe what I call "stiff":

I was trying to be gentle and not sling the bolt around, to minimize how much impact I'm imparting on the case. All of the rounds stripped from the magazine with ease, and the bolt slid very easily with minimal pressure, no resistance beyond what you would expect. I never had to force the bolt forward, or anything like that.

Upon coming to the point where the bolt is "closed", but not turned down to lock, this is where the stiffness occurred. I didn't have to slap the bolt handle down, or change my grip, but I did find I had to apply more torque, than I did when I shot my surplus ammo. I'm able to apply this torque open handed, like turning a small ratchet.
This amount of torque has reduced in following runs through the cycle, for each round.

I'm moving the bolt gently, taking a couple of seconds to move the bolt, not firmly and quickly moving it.

After a couple of times through the cycle, none require any more force or torque applied, than to close my Mosin on an empty chamber; but still more than on this VZ 24 on an empty chamber.

All eject freely and easily afterwards, nothing seems sticky. I don't see any scuffs, but PERHAPS the case isn't as shiny... maybe it's the slightest bit too much lacquer??

 

[LVSteve]

Do the cases or the bullets of the PW ammo show any marks after cycling? Does the bullet look like it gets set back? If none of these apply, you are probably good to go.

BTW, the specs for that ammo are pretty tame compared with full house German 198 gr stuff from WWII. That was rated about 2550 fps. The PW ammo is 170 gr at 2360 fps, probably so it is safe in GeW 88s.

 

[Arik]

Yes and yes.

The green lacquer is sealant for long storage

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[scoobysnacker]

Do the cases or the bullets of the PW ammo show any marks after cycling? Does the bullet look like it gets set back? If none of these apply, you are probably good to go.

No, nothing visible on the bullets. No scuff or scratch.

No visible setback; the green line of lacquer is uneven among the different rounds, but nothing seems to change after a cycle.

No type of crimping is occurring, visibly at least.

What I THINK is the case, is that these may have a clear coat of lacquer sprayed on the case, and maybe it's a little too thick at times.
The cases are maybe a little less shiny after cycling, but still feel very smooth and paintlike (I've got some Brown Bear in 9 makarov, the cases feel the same). They don't feel like bare steel.
And in practice, I can take a very-stiff loading one, run it through the cycle a couple of times, and after 3 or 4 times, the bolt will close easily... it's never as tough as the first time, and gets better each time.

So.... now I'm faced with the question- should I do just that, run them through a few times, so that when it's time for the range, they cycle easily?
That shouldn't hurt the rifle (I'm going on the assumption that the rifle's steel is far harder than the casings). I suppose I need to take pre- and post- cycle measurements, to be sure.

and, thinking it over, maybe I should clean the rifle out (maybe possible lacquer buildup), after I "fit" the ammo.

 

[scoobysnacker]

Yes and yes.

The green lacquer is sealant for long storage

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Arik, am I correct to read that as

Yes: safe to cycle a few times
and
Yes: safe to shoot after cycling?

Sorry if this sounds a little anal-retentive, I've just never had any ammo that was "not quite" fitting into a chamber, either rifle or handgun. It either fit, or it didn't.

I haven't run into a stiff bolt before. I suppose it's like a slide not fully closing, and if you give it a tap it does. I suppose once it's closed, it's fine. ?

Trying my best to explain the stiffness here...
just guessing, trying to compare from memory, and considering the length of the bolt handle to a ratchet, or a torque wrench.

Some of the rounds felt like I had to apply over 30 ft/lbs of torque to rotate the handle and lock, the first time. A couple felt like over 40 ft/lbs, but then the handle is shorter than a ratchet, so it would be less. Most feel in the 15 ft/lb range, some more or less.
After doing this once, it's easier each time following.

 

[Arik]

Arik, am I correct to read that as

Yes: safe to cycle a few times
and
Yes: safe to shoot after cycling?

.

Correct.

I shoot a lot of steel case in surplus guns. Honestly don't even pay attention to how hard or not hard the bolt closes. Shoot, eject, slam another one in, shoot.... repeat

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[GypsmJim]

Just a few comments, opinions and observations. Take them for what its worth.

I have never liked the lacquered cases, because of the same problems you describe. First of all, repeated shooting may cause some melting of the coating, and thus cause a buildup in the chamber. When you shoot, shoot 8 or 10 rounds and then let the gun cool before proceeding. And of course, be sure to start with a clean chamber. If the coating varies in thickness, not much you can do about that.

I shot 1930's vintage German surplus back in the early 1970's. Didn't like it because it was corrosive and required so much cleaning so I started reloading. Eventually started casting as well, so the surplus was more expensive than my reloads.

In about 2002 I picked up Turk bandoleers for $0.06 per round, so I bought a ton of the stuff in spite of it being corrosive. Its all brass, but not reloadable, but it shoots near 100% reliable.

 

[gregintenn]

Shoot it and have fun. It's made for the rifle, and will be fine. You won't likely damage a Mauser action rifle with normal use. Just think the treatment many of these rifles received in wartime, and are still in working order.

 

[moosedog]

Nice that your father kept it in the family. Congratulations, can't wait for the pictures.
Just remember that some surplus ammo is corrosive and can ruin the bore if not cleaned properly.

 

[scoobysnacker]

terrible cellphone pic

 

[alwslate]

Your rifle looks like a standard VZ 24 short rifle, meaning with a barrel
about 23 1/2" long as opposed to the early Mausers with 29" barrels.
It is not a true mod 98 carbine that has a 17 5/8" barrel. The VZ 24 is
a quality mod 98 and your steel cased ammo as well as domestic SP
hunting ammo is loaded down near 30-30 pressure levels. Most wartime
8mm military ammo was pretty warm so I don't think you need to worry.

 

[scoobysnacker]

Thanks to all that have replied to this thread. This gun means a lot to me, as it was, I believe, the only gunshow purchase he made for himself with me.

He had various guns, but when I expressed interest in a semiauto (a 9mm), when I was in my 20's, he started going to gunshows with me.

I ended up finding a Chinese Tokarev and a few other surplus things over the years with him, but he stayed pat, only getting ammo at times, until the day I found a Yugo SKS for around $200, covered in cosmoline. I went to find him and show it off, and he was just finishing off his deal- this VZ 24 and 70 rds of Yugo surplus ammo in a bandolier, for $70!

He was diagnosed with a detached retina shortly afterwards (this, after several cataract surgeries), so he never shot it. But he sure was pleased with it.

After laying claim after my mother passed recently (he passed last year), I shot 10 rounds of the surplus, after cleaning it up as best I could, and he picked a good deal. Bore is clean and sharp, and those 10 rds did a nice tight group (and all shot fine).

We're piecing out the rest of his guns; my oldest brother got his Colt 1911, my other brother claimed his High Standard 22lr/22 magnum revolver, and per my dad's late request my brother-in-law got his old 16 gauge shotgun (Dad never really said anything about it all, but when my mother's dad passed, all the guns went to his sons, and my dad and the other son-in-law didn't get any. He didn't bitch about it, but near the end, he told me to give my brother in law a gun, because "that's what should happen"; and that's the gun he designated).

Next round of guns to disperse are- a S&W snubnose, I think it's a Model 10 or a 64, will have to check it out.
A 12 gauge pump, I think it's a JC Higgins model 20.
An old 12 gauge double barrel, old as the hills, I think it's got the Damascus barrel, thing has sat over the fireplace forever.
And finally, not technically a firearm, but an old Crosman pellet pistol, that we found in a drawer.

Before he passed, he dealed out a couple others to us; a Glenfield model 60 with a scope, Remington 20 gauge pump, and a quirky little Iver Johnson Bulldog in 38 S&W.

Looking at it now, none of these were pricey, but he took good care of them and they all worked great. And the sentimental value for us exceeds the monetary value, as they were Dad's.

I thought I remembered others, some rifles, but I think he traded them over the years for things like a riding lawnmower, a boat, and even an early 70's Thunderbird . I guess since he stopped hunting after moving down south, he let his deer rifles go for more useful items.

 

[2152hq]

If you want to check and see if an (uneven) lacquer coating on the cases is what is effecting the chambering,,see if you can remove the lacquer by wiping the cases with a rag damped with lac/thinner or acetone.
Should cut it and remove the coating I'd think unless they used some space-age polymer coating!

Run a few more cartridges through the rifle till you find a couple that give you that heavy resistance to closing the bolt,,but don't close the bolt all the way. Stop right there when you feel the resistance and eject the cartridge.
Then wipe the coating off (if you can). Especially get all the coating off the neck of the case and then try again to chamber that same cartridge and see if the resistance is gone.


The other thing I can think of would be cartridge cases that are in and out of spec by nothing more than a couple ten .000
Not enough for failure to chamber, but enough to feel the difference in resistance on the bolt handle. Some reloaders adjust the die to 'minimum headspace' on bottleneck cases,,little or no setback of the shoulder. That gives slight resistance on chambering.

I'd guess that it's more the lacquer coating though since the condition lessens with each chambering of the case. Sounds like any excess thickness coating is wearing down or more likely compressing each time it's chambered. Brass just springs back the couple ten.000" and gives the same feel each time.

Just my thoughts..


There's a VZ24 in our family to. My uncle gave it to my who father gave it to my brother. Stocks been redone but it's a great shooter.
I still have a supply of the Turk 8mm. I think it was something like $6/ for a 70rd bandolier. Pretty hot stuff it seems! Most 1941 headstamped.

Have fun with your rifle!!