Weapon lights and lasers on M&P pistols... useless???

[CouchPotato]

There appears to be some who want to have this debate. Instead of continuing to hijack threads of a different topic, let's just discuss it here.

I personally find great value in weapon attachments, others apparently think that they're the dumbest thing in the history of things. Debate is welcome.

Proper weapon light usage appears to be difficult for some people to comprehend. Before we can have this discussion, one thing must be gotten out of the way first:

A weapon mounted light is only to be used AFTER a justified reason to draw your gun has presented itself.

Now read it again...

A weapon mounted light is only to be used AFTER a justified reason to draw your gun has presented itself.

A weapon light is not a flashlight and must not be used in the same way.

Let's move on...

Obviously a lot of defensive situations don't include enough time to be diddling around with weapon attachments, but still... alot of them do.

Tom Grieve recently cited a statistic by John Lott which is that approximately 98% of the time when a person who's defending themselves presents a firearm, the attacker gives up, and usually runs away. This means, if you do have to draw your gun, it's highly probable that you won't have to shoot. Don't depend on that statistic though... just be aware of it.

The weapon light typically will partially blind an attacker and cause him to momentarily look away. This obviously gives you a tactical advantage that can be exploited in a variety of ways, depending on the circumstances.

In the scenario where you've already presented the gun and the attacker has at least stopped in his tracks, at minimum, the light is very useful for obtaining a clear view of exactly what his hands are doing and what's in them.

In a home defense situation, the best thing typically to do is hide behind cover or in concealment and call 911 with a gun ready. However, we all know that situation isn't possible in all circumstances, especially if you have to go collect the kids, or whatever.

If you're moving from room to room with a flashlight or weapon light that's on and there is an armed attacker, odds are that he'll just shoot at the light source, which is not good. Also, with the light on and with an armed attacker in the home, you're giving away your position from around the corner.

Momentary light activation generally is better. If you do find yourself in a situation where constant-on is necessary, it's wise to maintain low ready and use the peripheral splash of the light to see. The rules of firearms safety definitely still apply...

There have been scenarios where a homeowner believed a home invasion was taking place, because of glass breaking or whatever, and when the silhouette of the "intruder" appeared, he fired and dropped the target. After the lights were turned on, he discovered that he just shot a family member.

Scenarios like that can be prevented with a weapon light.

Trigger control and trigger discipline are of the utmost importance yet fine motor movements become difficult in high adrenaline situations. For that reason, positive threat identification with a weapon light should be achieved from low ready.

When used properly, a weapon light allows you to follow the rules of firearms safety in low light, not break them.

• Treat all guns as if they're loaded
• Never point a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy
• Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot
• Be sure of your target and what's behind it.

The weapon light enables you to "be sure of your target" and it allows you to see "whats behind it." When used properly, the gun never gets pointed at anything that you dont intend on destroying and your finger never touches the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

If you do choose to carry a weapon mounted light, you must be able to easily activate the light. I personally prefer one where I can smoothly activate the light with my support hand during the draw stroke. A lot of practice activating the light is necessary, it should be a function of muscle memory, and it shouldn't add any time to the draw stroke. I also need to be able to easily activate and deactivate the light from low ready or compressed ready.

Weapon lasers can also be helpful. If I had to choose between just a light or just a laser, I'd choose the light, but my actual pick is the light/laser combo whenever possible.

A weapon laser comes with a major caveat because in outdoor daylight conditions, the laser will not be visible, especially in sunlight. No matter what color laser you pick, they're all mostly useless in daylight conditions, or even at night with too bright of a weapon light against certain colors of clothing. You cannot become dependent on the laser as an aiming solution.

With that out of the way...

In a defensive situation where you've presented your gun, a lot of people report that they were unable to unglue their eyes from the attacker, unable to see their iron sights, or unable to find the dot in their optic. This threat focused vision is a natural byproduct of your adrenaline fueled flight-or-fight response. Because a weapon laser appears on your target, you have an aiming solution even with threat locked vision. You'll also have an aiming solution if you're aiming from an unconventional position, such as with the gun near your own body for whatever reason.

In a scenario where the gun is drawn at low/compressed ready, and the weapon/laser is activated, you'll be able to see exactly where the gun is aimed through your peripheral vision.

In a defensive situation where you have the luxury of time and distance, and you're not facing an attacker who has a gun, a laser in their eyes will have a significantly higher blinding effect than the brightest light will. Think of any scenario where there's time to give verbal commands. It's an edge case scenario that can (and has) allowed people to avoid shooting an attacker. For whatever reason, some attackers take a weapon laser very seriously, even if they're not taking your gun seriously. I've seen it first hand.

Because of morals, perhaps your spiritual beliefs, and certainly because of the inevitable legal aftermath of a justified self defense shooting, it's highly desirable to avoid shooting an attacker whenever possible. Simultaneously, when faced with an armed attacker, it's critical that you can quickly and accurately put multiple shots on target without being dependent on lasers, optics, or even iron sights. For that reason, becoming skilled with "point shooting" is a huge asset in a defensive situation where there's just no time and when fractions of seconds matter.

If you conceal carry, being able to quickly draw from the holster is necessary. Speed comes from efficiency and muscle memory which are byproducts of training and practice, lots of practice.

During dry fire practice, a weapon laser presents unique training opportunities. With it on, you can see how your grip and trigger pull mechanics affect your point of aim in real time. While practicing drawing from the holster, you can leave the light on and when you draw, you can see the exact path the muzzle takes, which should be a straight line from your holster to the target and not a zig-zag across half of the room. Furthermore, you can practice "point shooting" because you can see your point of aim without your sights being in front of your face.

On top of everything I've already mentioned, a weapon light attachment causes the handgun to be more flat shooting which is highly beneficial when fast follow up shots are necessary. The obvious reason is because you're adding more weight near the muzzle.

For those who use an extra high grip with their support hand, you'll have better ergonomics for your support hand index finger and you'll be able to more easily keep it out of the way of the trigger guard while tightly wrenching down on the gun. For those who dont know, this is where the knuckle of your support-hand middle finger meets the bottom of the trigger guard, instead of your index finger knuckle. The benefit of this grip style, once mastered, is superior recoil management.

No matter what attachments and accessories you put on your gun, it will only ever be as good as the person who's operating it. Mastering the fundamentals and constantly being conscious of the fundamental rules for firearms safety are the most beneficial and most important things. You can not buy your way into being a good shooter. Practice is the only way.

 

[TM44]

Why do you speak to everyone else as if they are idiots?

 

[ShallNotBeInfringed]

Photo of quote:

Why do you speak to everyone else as if they are idiots?

What a helpful reply... Would it be so bad to just either weigh-in on what he is asking about, or say nothing at all? There seemingly are an abundance of trolls on these threads at times; people who just want to pick fights on the interwebs, instead of contributing anything of worth to any conversation. They just say childish things to mock the OP of any thread.

Really, why say such a petty thing? I'll ignore it when its someone saying trash to me - but the OP put together a long, well thought-out post asking for feedback, and all you can think to do is mock his writing.

You are the one speaking to others "as if they are idiots".

 

[CouchPotato]

Why do you speak to everyone else as if they are idiots?

Specifically regarding my original post for this thread, your observation is not entirely off the mark. I do however want to draw a distinction between people who say idiotic things and people who truly are idiots... There's a difference, but let's not pretend that the internet is devoid of idiots either.

It's worth noting that my final draft for that post had a line about keyboard commandos and another line about mall ninjas, which I deleted so as to minimize how much I provoked various readers.

I offer no apologies.

In various places over the last couple of weeks, including this forum, I've been drawn into this weapon light debate a number of times. The reoccurring objection by those who oppose weapon lights involves their misconception that a weapon light is used the same way as an everyday flashlight. Their demagoguery of the subject prevents the conversation from moving past that point, especially with their tirades about how everyone in a dark parking lot is getting flagged, about how I'm breaking all the rules of firearms safety, and about how I'm going to go to prison because of a weapon light.

Obviously, those people are completely failing to understand how to use a weapon light. You can accuse them of being idiots if you wish however I'll say that their opinion on weapon lights, most decidedly, is idiotic.

Now you know.

 

[Equus]

Photo of quote:

What a helpful reply... Would it be so bad to just either weigh-in on what he is asking about, or say nothing at all? There seemingly are an abundance of trolls on these threads at times; people who just want to pick fights on the interwebs, instead of contributing anything of worth to any conversation. They just say childish things to mock the OP of any thread.

Really, why say such a petty thing? I'll ignore it when its someone saying trash to me - but the OP put together a long, well thought-out post asking for feedback, and all you can think to do is mock his writing.

You are the one speaking to others "as if they are idiots".

Question is, why did his question upset you so much? Your posting is as mocking as his supposedly is. And yes the wall of text was intended to appear superior. A far better discussion invitation would have been limited to the first 2 sentences.

 

[SoCalDep]

Good post! I agree with just about everything you said. I’ll give some background and add my spin.

I thought lasers were a gimmick but when I worked at a large firearm retailer back in late 2000 we started carrying CTC laser grips and I was sent to an 8hr law enforcement training class with Clyde Caseres - the LE trainer for CTC at the time. The class sold me and I bought a set.

Fast forward to 2002 and I was hired by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department as a deputy. While in the academy I learned that CTC grips had been tested and were to be approved soon. I was shooting the Steel Challenge (back when it was held in Southern California) and when my turn came at the prize table I chose the package with a certificate for CTC grips.

I was in the third class held by the department in February of 2003 (it was the second week of the program and the earliest class that fit my schedule). A couple months ago before I retired I pulled the records and found the roster for my class… weird to see my “sign in” over twenty years later.

I went to patrol in early 2007 and used those CTC grips on my Beretta 92FS… A little less than a year later weapon mounted lights (WMLs) were approved and I started carrying my Vertec with a set of CTC grips and a Surefire X200. In many different situations I saw the benefit of WMLs and lasers… Including people who reacted with very satisfactory results and others who could care less that a laser attached to a pistol was pointed at their head.

I did the field training officer thing for a while and in 2011 I was promoted (after a six month testing process) to a full-time firearm instructor with the Weapons Training Unit. In that capacity I had the privilege of updating the academy and in-service low light program and addressing issues with WML training to make our program one of the leaders in the LE world. In addition to some other cool stuff I was also able to evaluate pistol optics, write the proposal, get them approved, and be one of the three main guys to implement the training program. While doing that I completely revised and modernized our academy firearms program.

I never liked our laser training program. After my initial CTC class, going to the department class was a joke. When a request came in late 2021 I agreed to teach a laser class but it would be my way and an 8 hour class instead of the 2.5 hour class the department held. I was very happy (and I think the students were too) with how it came out.

I retired at the end of September after spending almost a year at our armory/administrative office building a modernized department Weapons Training intranet (department only) site and doing a variety of special projects. I also continued to instruct pistol optic and 1911/2011 classes… something that was near and dear to me.

So to add to what has already been a great original post I’ll say the following:

Lasers are in increasing use by certain high-speed LE teams. The advantages of both visible and IR lasers in the proper contexts is simply awesome. I think proper training is key with the understanding it’s a niche tool for specific circumstances and environments.

Having a WML doesn’t mean one can’t use a hand held light when the situation is more appropriate for that. I believe if the choice was one or the other a hand-held light is essential, but that’s not the case… we can have both and both is good.

WML activation is a thing. Proper manipulation technique can be the difference between reliable activation under stress and having to shoot in the dark or in uncontrolled changing lighting conditions… and can mean the difference between safe firearms handling and negligent discharges. I know few people who have really done a deep dive into this. I did, but as I’m just barely retired, I haven’t decided what my future holds yet. At this point I don’t know if it will be a blog subject, YouTube video, training class I offer, or what… but putting a WML on one’s gun without any training is like buying a gun without training… It might be OK… and it might not.

Lasers and WMLs are tools to take advantage or create advantage in specific environmental (lighting) conditions. They are not primary tools such as iron sights or pistol optics. Proper training and an understanding of how these tools fit in the overall skill set and tactical knowledge base will allow the user to apply them in the best way possible.

 

[CouchPotato]

Good post! I agree with just about everything you said. I’ll give some background and add my spin.

I thought lasers were a gimmick but when I worked at a large firearm retailer back in late 2000 we started carrying CTC laser grips and I was sent to an 8hr law enforcement training class with Clyde Caseres - the LE trainer for CTC at the time. The class sold me and I bought a set.

Fast forward to 2002 and I was hired by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department as a deputy. While in the academy I learned that CTC grips had been tested and were to be approved soon. I was shooting the Steel Challenge (back when it was held in Southern California) and when my turn came at the prize table I chose the package with a certificate for CTC grips.

I was in the third class held by the department in February of 2003 (it was the second week of the program and the earliest class that fit my schedule). A couple months ago before I retired I pulled the records and found the roster for my class… weird to see my “sign in” over twenty years later.

I went to patrol in early 2007 and used those CTC grips on my Beretta 92FS… A little less than a year later weapon mounted lights (WMLs) were approved and I started carrying my Vertec with a set of CTC grips and a Surefire X200. In many different situations I saw the benefit of WMLs and lasers… Including people who reacted with very satisfactory results and others who could care less that a laser attached to a pistol was pointed at their head.

I did the field training officer thing for a while and in 2011 I was promoted (after a six month testing process) to a full-time firearm instructor with the Weapons Training Unit. In that capacity I had the privilege of updating the academy and in-service low light program and addressing issues with WML training to make our program one of the leaders in the LE world. In addition to some other cool stuff I was also able to evaluate pistol optics, write the proposal, get them approved, and be one of the three main guys to implement the training program. While doing that I completely revised and modernized our academy firearms program.

I never liked our laser training program. After my initial CTC class, going to the department class was a joke. When a request came in late 2021 I agreed to teach a laser class but it would be my way and an 8 hour class instead of the 2.5 hour class the department held. I was very happy (and I think the students were too) with how it came out.

I retired at the end of September after spending almost a year at our armory/administrative office building a modernized department Weapons Training intranet (department only) site and doing a variety of special projects. I also continued to instruct pistol optic and 1911/2011 classes… something that was near and dear to me.

So to add to what has already been a great original post I’ll say the following:

Lasers are in increasing use by certain high-speed LE teams. The advantages of both visible and IR lasers in the proper contexts is simply awesome. I think proper training is key with the understanding it’s a niche tool for specific circumstances and environments.

Having a WML doesn’t mean one can’t use a hand held light when the situation is more appropriate for that. I believe if the choice was one or the other a hand-held light is essential, but that’s not the case… we can have both and both is good.

WML activation is a thing. Proper manipulation technique can be the difference between reliable activation under stress and having to shoot in the dark or in uncontrolled changing lighting conditions… and can mean the difference between safe firearms handling and negligent discharges. I know few people who have really done a deep dive into this. I did, but as I’m just barely retired, I haven’t decided what my future holds yet. At this point I don’t know if it will be a blog subject, YouTube video, training class I offer, or what… but putting a WML on one’s gun without any training is like buying a gun without training… It might be OK… and it might not.

Lasers and WMLs are tools to take advantage or create advantage in specific environmental (lighting) conditions. They are not primary tools such as iron sights or pistol optics. Proper training and an understanding of how these tools fit in the overall skill set and tactical knowledge base will allow the user to apply them in the best way possible.

Thanks for your kind words and for your great post. I think that with your specific experience, expertise, and skill set, a lot of people would benefit greatly if you choose to share your knowledge. I hope you do. Perspective like yours is of great value.

As a country, we probably have more people who are new to guns and to concealed carry than we ever have. Because of the Bruen and Heller cases, we'll continue to see restrictive gun laws in various states crumble and as a result, we'll see more and more new gun owners that are hungry for knowledge.

I completely agree how the subject of WML activation is a thing that's not easy to master. I carry a M&P Shield with a TLR6 and don't have small hands. It definitely wasn't easy to master hitting that little button in a reliable way. It took some time but eventually I got it... now, somehow, I can't miss.

I'm curious what your opinion is of features found in the Viridian brand, specifically with their auto-on feature. I have tried a couple of their products over the years. If you're not familiar, basically there's a magnetic switch in the WML and a magnet in the holster. The WML gets holstered while on, the magnet turns it off, and on the draw the magnet turns it back on. Their holster compatibility options are very limited but I'm curious what you think of that concept, especially for a civilian in a defensive situation.

My initial concern is that technology would be a crutch that prevents people from training properly.... but since the tech makes the battery of arms fundamentally different, and because civilians don't engage in room clearing, what exactly does "training properly" even mean? The technology makes WML activation automatic at the holster.

For use on a home defense handgun, I've been considering their X5LCam which is the light, laser, and camera in a TLR1-ish footprint. A recent self defense situation taught me the high value of having a camera that captures everything. The thing is so expensive, I'll need to buy a more expensive home defense gun.

 

[czgunner]

After taking some no/low light training, I have a light on all my fighting pistols. Yeah, I sold my old holsters and bought light compatible versions. Zero regrets.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[Eric300]

You can't hit what you can't see (or at least identify as a hostile threat). I'll just leave it at that.

 

[SoCalDep]

Thanks for your kind words and for your great post. I think that with your specific experience, expertise, and skill set, a lot of people would benefit greatly if you choose to share your knowledge. I hope you do. Perspective like yours is of great value.

As a country, we probably have more people who are new to guns and to concealed carry than we ever have. Because of the Bruen and Heller cases, we'll continue to see restrictive gun laws in various states crumble and as a result, we'll see more and more new gun owners that are hungry for knowledge.

I completely agree how the subject of WML activation is a thing that's not easy to master. I carry a M&P Shield with a TLR6 and don't have small hands. It definitely wasn't easy to master hitting that little button in a reliable way. It took some time but eventually I got it... now, somehow, I can't miss.

I'm curious what your opinion is of features found in the Viridian brand, specifically with their auto-on feature. I have tried a couple of their products over the years. If you're not familiar, basically there's a magnetic switch in the WML and a magnet in the holster. The WML gets holstered while on, the magnet turns it off, and on the draw the magnet turns it back on. Their holster compatibility options are very limited but I'm curious what you think of that concept, especially for a civilian in a defensive situation.

My initial concern is that technology would be a crutch that prevents people from training properly.... but since the tech makes the battery of arms fundamentally different, and because civilians don't engage in room clearing, what exactly does "training properly" even mean? The technology makes WML activation automatic at the holster.

For use on a home defense handgun, I've been considering their X5LCam which is the light, laser, and camera in a TLR1-ish footprint. A recent self defense situation taught me the high value of having a camera that captures everything. The thing is so expensive, I'll need to buy a more expensive home defense gun.

I have a Shield with a TLR6 as well… It was a backup gun for a while. The light is a bit anemic, but it’s enough for a close range encounter. The laser is the primary reason I got the TLR6, and while I’m not a fan of the switching (I like automatic activation such as the CTC versions better) it’s better than not having anything. Further, as you mentioned, training and (more importantly) practice can make it effective.

I have a little experience with the Veridian stuff, but not a lot. What I see from them is one end of the spectrum which is complete automaticity… they do all the work and you have no choice. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s a very absolute thing, and I’m not a big fan of being absolute. I can see where it could be valuable, particularly with the untrained.

The other end of the spectrum is the non-intuitive activation. This includes what I call digital (think TLR6,7,8,9,10), and mechanical (Surefire X300 series and Streamlight TLR1/2 series). I don’t like digital switching. It’s very difficult to manipulate reliably under stress, particularly if one wants to “control” the light. The mechanical switches are better, and can work very well when manipulated in a cognitive environment where we aren’t stressed enough that our decision-making ability is seriously compromised. They are also more appropriate if using night vision, or if one is tactically concerned with “white light ADs”… If you’re rightly concerned with that… you’re probably not needing my advice.

My “ideal” is the intuitive activation provided by CTC laser grips, the Streamlight Contour Switch, or the Surefire DG Switch. These switching methods allow intuitive/automatic activation under stress (training and practice still required… but less than other activation methods) and still allow control of the light in cognitive situations.

As for video on the gun… I’m torn. We should be decent people and live such that it doesn’t matter that a camera captures what we do. Body camera footage has saved a lot of good cops. It has convicted some bad cops, and that’s good. My real fear with body cameras is that they capture a specific view of an incident. For cops, they have infrastructure that can break down that video, investigate and obtain additional information, and provide context. Can we as individuals do that? If the gun-cam is used who gets the footage? My assumption is it becomes evidence. That means that you and your infrastructure - whatever it is or isn’t - doesn’t have the ability to interpret it first… You probably get it in discovery from the… prosecution.

Prosecution….

The fact is the American judicial system is still set up with the burden of proof on the prosecution. Without a lot of supporting infrastructure (cloud backup interior and exterior security cameras, etc.), I’m not sure that I want the prosecutor to have really good information about my use of lethal force with very little information about the circumstances around or leading up to it.

I’m no lawyer but gun cameras for self defense scares the snot out of me.

 

[BourbonCowboy]

I put a light on every one of my pistols that has a rail. I've even been known to add a rail to a pistol just so I can add a light.

 

[CouchPotato]

I have a Shield with a TLR6 as well… It was a backup gun for a while. The light is a bit anemic, but it’s enough for a close range encounter. The laser is the primary reason I got the TLR6, and while I’m not a fan of the switching (I like automatic activation such as the CTC versions better) it’s better than not having anything. Further, as you mentioned, training and (more importantly) practice can make it effective.

I have a little experience with the Veridian stuff, but not a lot. What I see from them is one end of the spectrum which is complete automaticity… they do all the work and you have no choice. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s a very absolute thing, and I’m not a big fan of being absolute. I can see where it could be valuable, particularly with the untrained.

The other end of the spectrum is the non-intuitive activation. This includes what I call digital (think TLR6,7,8,9,10), and mechanical (Surefire X300 series and Streamlight TLR1/2 series). I don’t like digital switching. It’s very difficult to manipulate reliably under stress, particularly if one wants to “control” the light. The mechanical switches are better, and can work very well when manipulated in a cognitive environment where we aren’t stressed enough that our decision-making ability is seriously compromised. They are also more appropriate if using night vision, or if one is tactically concerned with “white light ADs”… If you’re rightly concerned with that… you’re probably not needing my advice.

My “ideal” is the intuitive activation provided by CTC laser grips, the Streamlight Contour Switch, or the Surefire DG Switch. These switching methods allow intuitive/automatic activation under stress (training and practice still required… but less than other activation methods) and still allow control of the light in cognitive situations.

As for video on the gun… I’m torn. We should be decent people and live such that it doesn’t matter that a camera captures what we do. Body camera footage has saved a lot of good cops. It has convicted some bad cops, and that’s good. My real fear with body cameras is that they capture a specific view of an incident. For cops, they have infrastructure that can break down that video, investigate and obtain additional information, and provide context. Can we as individuals do that? If the gun-cam is used who gets the footage? My assumption is it becomes evidence. That means that you and your infrastructure - whatever it is or isn’t - doesn’t have the ability to interpret it first… You probably get it in discovery from the… prosecution.

Prosecution….

The fact is the American judicial system is still set up with the burden of proof on the prosecution. Without a lot of supporting infrastructure (cloud backup interior and exterior security cameras, etc.), I’m not sure that I want the prosecutor to have really good information about my use of lethal force with very little information about the circumstances around or leading up to it.

I’m no lawyer but gun cameras for self defense scares the snot out of me.

You make good points again, the burden of proof is a great one. I can see how an anti-2a prosecutor potentially could twist and contort a situation, especially in some states with some circumstances.

I suppose it's all situation dependent and there isn't a single solution that works right for all scenarios. You might have saved me some money here. I'll probably just keep questioning the need for a weapon camera.

 

[TM44]

Question is, why did his question upset you so much? Your posting is as mocking as his supposedly is. And yes the wall of text was intended to appear superior. A far better discussion invitation would have been limited to the first 2 sentences.

What question? The op starts the thread by referring to a debate but asks no questions at all. All statements. I did not comment on the points he raised. I believe anything that makes one safer or more accurate can be beneficial. I was merely commenting on his presentment.

 

[Equus]

What question? The op starts the thread by referring to a debate but asks no questions at all. All statements. I did not comment on the points he raised. I believe anything that makes one safer or more accurate can be beneficial. I was merely commenting on his presentment.

I was referring to the guy that got upset over your question. That’s why I quoted his rant over yours.

 

[coltle6920]

I'm not debating anything.... Just my opinion of the OP's thread.

First off I would say that the last paragraph would've been better as a leadin to the rest of his statement. Obviously bells and whistles are only as good as the abilities of the person pulling the trigger.

Secondly maybe including the red dot in the conversation is necessary to the pros and cons of addons.

The situation will be different for each of us. I live alone. I usually leave a small light on downstairs. Even if I didn't I know the layout of my house and feel the advantage is mine in a dark house. A flashlight negates that advantage and helps the intruder as to my whereabouts.

I have a Armalaser on a few of my firearms. It activates when you grip the firearm. No need to search for the on/off button.

The last thing I would say is that in a situation I'm not looking for the sights on my firearm. It's point and shoot. It's something I practice at the range.

 

[ShallNotBeInfringed]

I was referring to the guy that got upset over your question. That’s why I quoted his rant over yours.

Priceless.

 

[CouchPotato]

I'm not debating anything....

Them are fightin' words 'round here

(joke)

Secondly maybe including the red dot in the conversation is necessary to the pros and cons of addons.

I wanted to specifically focus on the bottom of the gun where weapon lights and lasers live. It seems like there's been a lot of threads discussing the merits of dots and similar optics over the recent past.

I have a Armalaser on a few of my firearms. It activates when you grip the firearm. No need to search for the on/off button.

The last thing I would say is that in a situation I'm not looking for the sights on my firearm. It's point and shoot. It's something I practice at the range.

I tried the laser only solution for a time however in my case, there's a few scenarios where I'm outside at night while in or near urban areas where there's zero lighting. For that reason, I needed the light too.

Shooting at the range with the laser is fun, a lot like a red dot in some ways, except the gun doesn't have to be at eye level.

Since you brought up dots, it's worth noting that when compared to most lasers, often times the dot has less parallax with varrying distances. Usually (not always) the dot sits closer to the bore than a laser does and the dot is also centered with the bore and not offset to the left or right like some lasers are.

 

[SoCalDep]

I’m going to avoid quoting just because it makes the post even longer than my wordy-ness would otherwise be.

I’ll first offer my thoughts on the red dot, or as I like to say based on regional terminology - a pistol optic…

Should a pistol optic be included (in terms of subjects) with lasers and lights?

No.

The reason for this is that a pistol optic is a primary sighting tool. It’s a 24hr precision aiming reference and as such is very different than a supporting accessory such as a laser (aiming reference in specific environmental and situational conditions - often non-precise and certainly not a primary sighting tool) or a WML (aid for situational awareness, threat identification and management, navigation, and to assist with the acquisition of an iron sight picture in low light).

That said, let’s talk about dots and accessories… because we can.

My last duty pistol (personally owned) before I retired at the end of September was a Staccato P with an Aimpoint ACRO P2 and a Surefire X400 Turbo with the green laser and DG switch. Had it not been for department policies it could easily have been my M&P 5” Pro Series with an Apex Barrel, thumb safety installed. and Trijicon SRO. The X400 would have been great on that gun.

Pistol optics are an advantage… If I was training a new shooter…. I’d train them on a dot. Then, when they had that down I’d introduce irons. For the boomers and the ego-driven nay-sayers I’ll say just keep your irons and leave the better shooting to people who actually want to improve. Yep - I said it and I stand by it even though I’ve carried iron sighted 1911s for the past several months because I can and because I no longer feel required to perform the best I possibly can… I’m carrying because I like guns and that’s good enough for me. If someone attacks me and my family my iron sighted .45, .38 Super, or 9mm will probably be ok. So will yours. You will probably be ok too… so don’t freak out. But also don’t pretend you’re best prepared if you’re not fully trained and running a dot. It’s the best there is right now.

 

[SoCalDep]

Following my previous post, the next thought in my head is how do we integrate a pistol optic and iron sights and a laser… because I’m an advocate of iron sights on an optic-equipped pistol.

I think much of this discussion depends on use. For LE and specifically Special Weapons teams and hostage rescue or in specific close confines scenarios the pistol optic is the reliable always there sight. The laser (if activated depending on the pre-planned staging) is an “if I see it first’ way to increase speed of response in an environment (low or changing lighting conditions) where response time is increased due to diminished threat identification perception and (adding to the problem) diminished ability to obtain sight alignment… or an inability to bring the pistol to eye level at all.

For self defense it is much of the same, and the reality is that based on the context and distance of many self defense encounters, conventional sight alignment is difficult if not impossible. This doesn’t mean misses if one knows what they are doing, but the range isn’t like a two-way fight, and if one hasn’t the experience of a good amount of force-on-force or consistent (I learned from it enough to make a non-anecdotal opinion) gunfight experience, they can’t speak to really knowing what they are doing.

What does all my word salad mean?

The optic or irons are primary sights, but for many people, including those who don’t have a lot of experience, the laser is a big advantage.

For those who have a lot of skill, the pistol optic is the real 2020’s game changer and the laser, when integrated allows unconventional position shooting and faster “fairly” precise engagement at very close distrances where getting the pistol to eye level is slower than perceiving the laser dot.

 

[gnappi]

The whole issue could have been summed up by just answering the thread title...

"Weapon lights and lasers on M&P pistols... useless???"

I fail to see why a simple YES (to me) or NO (I love them) or some such would cause so many wordy and confrontational replies