Western holsters for an 8 inch American/1st Russian

[DesmoEd]

Anyone have non military vintage leather for their 8 inch Americans or 1st Russians?

The holsters I've run across that will accommodate an 8 inch S&W have been few and far between.

I recently picked up this 1st Russian rig

The holster fits perfectly top to bottom as shown and it has a beautiful pattern. The pistol is in the 23,xxx range and all matching incl grips. Factory letter is in the works, it will probably come back as ol M.W. shipped but you just never know...

Please post what you guys have.

 

[opoefc]

Any makers mark or stamps on your holster ? From what I can see in the photos, styling and other features, I would date that holster as at least a century younger than the revolver, however it's very attractive, and was probably made for a Colt SA 7 1/2 inch, but a S&W Model 3 will fit. I have one Model 3 American, in .44 Henry rimfire, shipped to Mexico City, still with it's original Mexican made smooth leather holster decorated with 3 silver Conchos. Model 3 holsters are very difficult to find. Ed.

 

[glowe]

That would be my guess as well. Long barrel Colt, 2nd generation. It seems that original vintage 1870s holsters for Americans and Russians were the slim-jim variety, with very narrow barrel section and a step to accomidate the long ejector housing. The 44 American and Russian revolvers will fit in these, but the Schofield is too large.

 

[DesmoEd]

No maker marks, Guys I never claimed it was an 1870's holster but the idea that its from the 1970's is kinda.....

Here are a couple of Colt SAA holsters I also have

The CP Shipley holster has been dated as pre-1910 by the maker mark and location, and the Brauer Bros 4.75 in rig as pre WW1

And I have owned vintage American leather

That one is actually in Pates book. Im not an expert by any means but not a rank novice either...

The Russian holster is not a SAA holster, it has no indication of ever having a plug and its most definitely sized for an 8 inch barreled pistol. Being so it absolutely swallows a 7.5 inch Colt, it fits so deep you cant even see the TG. As far as date, by the stitching and wear patterns its certainely at least pre-WW1

As a sidenote, I got to see JW Hardin's 1st Russian w/holster at a local show last year. The pistol he used to kill Sheriff Webb with and it was an impressive item.

Anyone else have any vintage leather pics?

 

[opoefc]

I'm probably incorrect on saying your Russian holster was intended for a Colt SAA and it may well be older than the 1970s. The point I was making was that it was not a likely candidate for 1870s era holsters, which were usually single looped, rather than double looped, as they were almost always made by saddle makers, if not owner made, and they were easier to make and stronger with a wide single loop. Top saddle makers usually marked their holsters with their names and those holsters are the "Grail" holsters for collectors. Congrats on your collection of holsters. Ed.

 

[glowe]

As I look at your first images again, I think the 8" barrel is actually too long for that holster, since it extends beyond the holster. I would rather think that holsters should protect the muzzle and therefore be longer than the gun barrel. It also seems that most of the early 1870s holsters were closed toe varieties of slim-jim and Mexican loop styles. Of course, that is not to say that none were made with open toes that early. Also, I do not see 1870s holsters with that amount of heavy leather tooling.

I am with Ed that your holster just does not look that old, plus it does not appear to be properly shaped for a Model 3 S&W. Heavily leather tooled holsters in that style became very popular in the 1900s and well into the early TV Cowboy era, but it could have been made before WWII. Lack of markings just eliminate the possibility of accurately stating when it was made.

As far as the design and shape of the holster, I cannot remember seeing an early 1870s holster without having been shaped to accomadate the long ejector housing. Your other example above clearly shows the shape most often seen associated with a Model 3. One possibility is that it was made for a 44 New Model 3. These revolvers had shorter barrels and a very short ejector housing, plus they were sold up to WWI. You say the holster is too loose to hold a Colt, which is interesting, since I cannot get a Colt into my Slim-Jim holsters made for the Model 3. Another possibility is that it was made for a 44 Double Action S&W, since they require an even larger holster than the Model 3 and were also sold up to WWI.

Lastly, I think you are saying the revolver is a Russian, but mention that you think it probably shipped to M.W. Robinson?? That would most likely make it a 44 American, 2nd. Very nice old hog-leg, just curious about the caliber?

 

[DesmoEd]

Guys, again I never implied or even thought that it was an 1870's vintage holster. IMO, its definitely pre WW1 if I had to guess, made when these pistols were still actually in use. The barrel does not protrude out the bottom, it fits perfectly flush when fully inserted and like I said earlier their is no evidence of it ever having a plug. I had OC Young look at it at an antique show down in Waco this past weekend and he thought it was late 19th century and definitely for an 8 inch S@W.

The pistol is an OOM 1st Russian serial 23,xxx which I'm thinking will letter shipped late 1873

I've owned 2 other 1st Russians and currently have a 2nd Russian that all lettered to MW Robinson even though the 2nd Russian was slated for eventual shipment to SH&G and marked as such on the butt.

Thanks, Ed

 

[rednichols]

Perhaps you would have had more useful feedback had you posted in the holster subforum too lots of hardcore 'holstorians' over there and I just happened to stumble acrooss your thread.

It is a late 19th century design and that it is stitched, if on a machine, is more likely very early 20th century. Sewing machines though available 1890s were most uncommon at saddlers until circa 1910. And holsters were always made by saddlers then.

However, on the plus side, holsters were hand sewn vs laced in that era, too. Which would push it back as far as you like. Bearing in mind that belt holsters didnt exist until revolvers did.

Condition is quite plausible. Condition is affected by storage and I have handled many a hundred year old holster that was in a condition like yours.

I'd say yours is plausibly period to the pistol. Was it made for just that pistol? In that era they were a generic fit anyway. And the lack of a makers mark was also common because the mark was advertising like a website address. Marks consisted of the word maker, his name, his state or territory. City directories of the time meant that was all the info needed for accurate delivery of, for a saddler, a letter of enquiry or an order.

And when these were made for a hardware store, they were unmarked so as not to take business directly away from that shop. Today Iis quite the opposite -- v rare to have no makers mark even for a home hobbyist. Thay are proud of their work and a stamp is bloody cheap

The handsome border effect was applied using a hand cranked roller and originated with saddlery. Not done today because saddlers are not holster makers and vice versa, so not having a roller for saddles, replica makers use hand stamps instead.

Cool, huh?

 

[DesmoEd]

Red,

thanks for your input, that is very cool info.

Here is something interesting I just discovered. A buddy of mine was telling me about the book "Packing Iron" so I ordered a copy and it came in a few days ago.....take a look at this holster on the inside cover:

And guess whats sitting in it - A Russian model.....granted its either a 2nd or 3rd by the spur but a Russian nonetheless.

Now compare the it to mine

From the punch dot background, border design, loop design...ect... they look identical except for having different center floral patterns. Perhaps the same maker?

Now I'm trying to find more info on the holster in the book. Anyone with any more info please chime in.

Thanks, Ed

 

[rednichols]

Red,

thanks for your input, that is very cool info.

Here is something interesting I just discovered. A buddy of mine was telling me about the book "Packing Iron" so I ordered a copy and it came in a few days ago.....take a look at this holster on the inside cover:

And guess whats sitting in it - A Russian model.....granted its either a 2nd or 3rd by the spur but a Russian nonetheless.

Now compare the it to mine

From the punch dot background, border design, loop design...ect... they look identical except for having different center floral patterns. Perhaps the same maker?

Now I'm trying to find more info on the holster in the book. Anyone with any more info please chime in.

Thanks, Ed

Isn't that great . I believe Rattenbury is still at the National Cowboy Museum; give him a hoy for more info. I agree: same maker for both holsters. The Mexican carving, which is done separately from the edge rolling, is indeed different and indicates a different craftsman only (they were called 'leather engravers' in that era). These men moved around from maker to maker and some became quite famous in their own right. Typically they were Yankee-born rather than from Mexico.

Here's one, that we know is a hundred years old, from my friend turnerriver (moderator on the holster subforum here). It's in nearly-new condition:





This one is a Heiser. Notice also it does not have a muzzle plug hand-stitched into it.

 

[rednichols]

Ok, let's have some fun with this, then let your forum get back to worrying about Smith & Wesson revolvers .

I love to try to work things out, so have spent a bit more time on this analysis than a sane person would. "Your" holster and the holster on the IFC of Packing Iron indeed are made by the same person/company; judging by the details in the edge patterning including not only the 'rope' effect but the hand creasing at the edges. And as you say, the use of a 'seeder' tool for the background of the Mexican carving. The overall contour of the holster itself, etc.

You missed another pair of images, and I thank you for, in effect, encouraging me to have another look at the Book because I've generally not paid much attention to those portions that predated the 20th century. They are (plus yours):









I say 'thank you' because it was only this search that caused me to discover, that PI does have an image of an El Paso Saddlery Company holster in its pages; according to its caption. Genuine EPSCo holsters are rarer than one thinks: in business just a very short time, 1890-1902, the modern EPS (in business 1978-present) mob's 'counterfeits' have made it, perhaps, impossible to identify an original by its maker's mark.

I won't take the fun out of all this for you, by telling which pages all these images are from .

 

[DesmoEd]

Thanks Red, you sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

That's an excellent comparison you put together above and now I need to dig a little deeper into the images to find the others.

Turnerriver's holster is magnificent and goes to show, as you pointed out, that with proper care these leather timepieces can survive nicely.

I will reach out to Mr Rattenbury and let you know what I find out.

Thanks and looking forward to hanging out with you guys "over here".

Ed