What happened? .357 Rupture

[rodell]

I had some .357 158 gr that were ostensibly "new", purchased from a gun show in 1990-ish. I took out a few to shoot (getting to the bottom of the barrel) and shot 46. 23 looked like this, scarring the cylinder of my Performance Center 627. Needless to say, I'm not a happy camper.

Theory 1: The brass is old and brittle.
Theory 2: They were reloads, and, hot. (No primer problems, though.)
Theory 3: A combination of theory 1 and 2.

I used a plug gauge to check the cylinders, all were fine.

Any other theories? I have hundreds of these, and, now I'm afraid to shoot any of them in any of my firearms. Maybe I should go find an old Ruger????

 

[Culina]

I would vote for brittle brass

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Are they Remington brand? I have had a boatload of factory Remington ammo do that in several calibers, and a few Federal redbox 30/06's too. I seriously doubt that your chambers are scarred. It would take quite a few to do that, and they would all have to split so that the escaping gas hit the chamber wall in the same place everytime. Peak pressure and heat are forwards of the case mouth a bit too.

 

[rodell]

It is R-P brass, all of it. The primers were sealed, too. None of the primers (including in those that didn't split) show any pressure signs.

I tried to clean out the cylinders, even put some JB on a patch on a wire brush and chucked it. The marks are definitely there and they seem to want to stay. If you have an idea on how to clean it out, I'll give it a whirl.

I generally don't load a full cylinder, particular on this 8x weapon. I used a few cylinders the most.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Try attaching some 0000 steel wool to a rod and polish the chambers with a dremel tool. Go slow and check often. You don't need ultra high speed, or much pressure usually either. A little Flitz will usually do the trick too.

I figured it was R-P brass as soon as I saw the thread. I have had R-P brass bought new that was not heat treated properly before leaving the factory. It was .300 Weatherby brass, and I couldn't even use starting loads in it without the primer pockets expanding and dropping the primers out upon opening the bolt. the brass would also flow into the ejector hole makinh turning the bolt to open the action hard, not to mention that doing so resulted in tiny brass shavings getting into the inside of the bolt body which required disassembly to remedy.


BTW- Welcome to the forum.

 

[Bruce51]

I usually only see this happen with 30 or 40 year old rifle brass splitting at the neck. The obvious answer is brittle brass. I'm still loading 1980's vintage Remington .38 and .357 cases without splitting of the sides of the cases. It doesn't take a hot load to crack old brittle brass.
You may want to pull and salvage the bullets from the rest of these loads. The brass is not worth saving.

Bruce

Gun 4 Fun Good to see you posting.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Thanks Bruce. I appreciate it.

 

[2hawk]

Hydrogen Embrittlement?

Was that brass really shiny?

Reloaders have been cautioned for years against using ammonia based cleaners to shine up brass because of hydrogen embrittlement, and if you look up the term you'll see brass with stress fractures pretty much like what you've got.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

My vote would be poorly reloaded ammo.

Did the ammo come in commercial Remington boxes?

What type of bullets are loaded? Can you post a clear pic of a few rounds from the batch of ammo? That would help determine if it's reloads or factory loaded ammo.

 

[NE450No2]

I would contact Remington, send them pictures and ask for replacement.

I would not shoot ANY more of them.

 

[one_fast_ls1]

I would have stopped shooting them after the first cyllinder!

That sucks!

 

[andyo5]

On the case laying down on the left, I think I see a faint ring near the base that indicates contact with reloading tooling. I think the resizing process leaves this mark. Check the other cartridges to see if you can find any marks that would indicate reloading.
I see this mark on all of my reloaded cases, but never on new factory ammo.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Rarely will reloaded ammo burst along the sides like that unless it's a catstrophic failure, and then there isn't enough left to tell anything from. If they were overloaded rounds, the primer would have let go long before the sides would have split with normal and decent brass.

The op said the primers appear fine, so I would lean towards some type of brass weakening, whether from the factory itself or an aftermarket loading supplier.

 

[Texas1941]

The only first time fired brass I've seen split that far down into the head were R-P 45 Auto Rim rounds that were made in the '60s. They were about 20 years old when I shot them.

Just for the heck of it, I ran some of the cases that did not split through a carbide sizing die. Most of them split at the neck, making me think that the brass was extremely brittle. With that brass, I wasn't really surprised, because the R-P AR cases often split on the second or third reloading.

Brass hardens with age; you will often see neck/shoulder splits in old (30+ years) military brass, even if it has been properly annealed. But commercial brass should be good for at least 20+ years.

Perhaps that brass was marginal when it left the factory and time put it over the line.

Speculation, of course. Your guess is probably better than mine.

Charles

 

[cjw3]

I would contact Remington, send them pictures and ask for replacement.

I would not shoot ANY more of them.

He would have to send some of them to Remington on his own nickel for them to examine. Only after all of that will he find out if they will do anything for him even if they turn out to be factory loaded, which seems questionable.

I wrote them a letter last year complaining about the poor quality of some of their bulk pack .22's. The above is the company line I was fed in a form letter. The form letter was originally composed for somebody complaining about some centerfire cartridge (which I can't recall now) and all they did was change the address heading, so that shows how much it meant to them.

The moral of that story for me was not to buy any more Remington ammunition. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[rodell]

So, the plot, but not the brass, thickens.

I went to take one apart with my impact puller. It took me a good ten minutes. Here's the result of that one.

I think we know why the brass split.

It varies. They are all hard to get out, not all this hard. When I use an impact puller to get them out, the hollow point deforms because I have to hit it so hard/repeatedly.

Here's a look from the top - they are clean inside. Some seem to have a little discoloration at the base, others don't. No tool marks of any kind, though, other than where the bullet was seated.

For the poster who would have stopped - I would have if I had known. I was in a darkened shooting booth, and, just dropped the brass into my bucket. I didn't know about it until I looked at the brass.

I'm not going to shoot any more (!), and, I'm not going to tear them apart. I think they were reloads with good case prep - or were "new" from a reloading house. Not the Remington factory. The reason I believe this is they have red primer sealer on them, and, I don't think I've ever seen that on Remingtons.

BTW, they were loaded with 7.1 gr of a flat circle powder.

Bob

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I have a box of factory Rem .357 mag JHP that have that red sealent on them, and 3 out of 5 cartridges fired in 4 different guns the primers pierced upon firing. I tried them in that many different guns to make sure it wasn't just a bad firing pin or pin bushing in one. A while back I called them, and yea, I have to send them back on my dime for them to examine. I haven't yet, but I may now. There really is no excuse for this kind of thing these days.

 

[john traveler]

Those cracks in the thicker web part of the case are somewhat unusual. And worrisome.

Cartridge cases are manufactured on high-speed automated machinery and case anneals are likewise done on automated production lines. It's likely that those cases somehow missed an anneal operation or were otherwise improperly heat treated.

This reminds me of early reports of 5.56 NATO service ammo case failures in the early months of the Afghanistan campaign in 2002. Canadian and American forces incidents were reported. Case cracking was traced to selected ammo lots and a single case manufacturer. So, it is not entirely unheard of.

Last week I got around to firing a couple boxes of 7mm Mauser I reloaded back in the 1970s. Cases were reformed from .30-06 and 7.92 Mauser cases. On firing, almost 100% case mouths cracked down to the shoulder. I guess over 35 years of the seated bullets straining the case mouths was too much.

 

[Bruce51]

Brass questions?

I'm no metalurgist but the cases appear to be new from the pulled bullet pictures. When these were bought, were they in original Remington boxes?

It is my understanding is that the brass is stressed upon forming and unless properly annealed will split, as it is no longer elastic. Ok metal guys, does the zinc in the brass also crystalize over time making the cases more brittle. I have found loaded rifle ammo with split necks or split necks after firing. Yet I have fired most old ammo without any problems at all including ammo I loaded 30 years ago.

Time for the scientists to weigh in on the forming and failure of brass.

Bruce

 

[rodell]

Try attaching some 0000 steel wool to a rod and polish the chambers with a dremel tool. Go slow and check often. You don't need ultra high speed, or much pressure usually either. A little Flitz will usually do the trick too.

I worked on the cylinder tonight. It is pitted, like a gas cut (which is what it is). I tried everything in my arsenal, including bronze wool, 0000 steel wool, Flitz, jeweler's rouge and a dremel polishing tip, etc. They shine, but, the pits are still there.

I may order a chamber hone from Brownells, or, see if S&W will take just the cylinder and do it for me. If they would, it would save me a lot in shipping. If not, I'll just order the hone and oil.

When I bought these rounds, (1990-ish) they were "bulk" packaged, I can't remember how. I don't seem to remember the Remington colors.

I believe these "blew" due to a variety of factors, the most being that the crimp is way too tight and I'm guessing these were carefully prepared cases, but reloads. I've never had loads before that flattened the end of the kinetic puller to get one out.

I'm still irritated!