What's the Value for a .455 HE target version?

[Tony M.]

I'm looking at a Hand Ejector (second model from the information here) in .455 that *appears* at first look to be an original target version.

(I had originally posted in this thread some spurious information, and I have edited it out for ease of reading to those coming later)

I'll get a serial # over the weekend, and maybe a few photos as well.

I'd be interested in the gun as a piece that I can enjoy shooting as much as I would enjoy looking at it.

What would you all say would be a fair price to pay for something like this?

 

[DCWilson]

Be cautious here. The serial number, barrel length, and type of adjustable sight are going to dictate whether this gun is a rare factory original or a modification of some other model.

The Model of 1917 US Army was made only in 45 ACP/AR as far as I know, and if I remember correctly only one commercial 1917 has turned up with adjustable sights. A .455 revolver without an ejector rod shroud would be a .455 Hand Ejector, Second Model, most of which were made in 1916 under a British military contract. I have one of those converted to take .45 Colt and with a target sight, but the sight was a later modification and dates (probably) to the 1950s or 1960s.

1917s had a 5.5 inch barrel, and the .455 HEs had a 6.5 inch barrel.

I assume the gun you are looking at says something like SMITH & WESSON .455 on the barrel. If the cylinder is unmodified, can you say that the face of the recoil shield has not been planed to increase the headspace for the thicker rims of non-.455 chamberings?

Pics and a list of the different markings on this gun will be very informative and helpful.

Sorry if I sound paranoid and suspicious, but there is a lot of uncertainty with some varieties of these early N-frames.

 

[Hondo44]

That would be a very valuable and unique piece but as David suggests, proceed with caution. I don't want to rain on your parade and I think it would be a very fun gun to have and shoot. The Model 1917 and .455 cartridge combination didn't exist. As David said, it's more than likely a second model .455 Mark II Hand Ejector (a 1st Model would be a 'triple lock"). A very few were made for the commercial market but Target models are not known.

Most often target sights were added and barrel shortened if not 6 1/2".
Not to be redundant but confirm which cartridge actually fits the cylinder chambers, as most often they were converted to 45 Colt or 45 ACP for readily available ammo. Be suspect if there is no serial number on the back face of the cylinder as this will indicate a rework of the cylinder for another cartridge other than 455.

A date on the left side of grip frame under the grip would indicate S&W did some work on it, perhaps the sight installation or could be for something else as well.

I wish I could go with you, these are always fun to figure out and correctly identify! If the price is appropriate for what it actually is, I wouldn't hesitate to buy and enjoy once I knew for sure. Have fun and please let us know.

 

[Tony M.]

I'm sure you're quite right about it not being a 1917, but rather a HE in .455.

The serial is still present on the rear of the cylinder, and I didn't see clear signs of the recoil shield being machined. The barrel remains at about 6.5" (I didn't measure it, but it's not 5.5)

I'll plan to take a much closer look at everything and see if I can get some photos. It very well could be a factory rework as suggested. I'm not sure at all.

The stocks are checkered walnut with medallions, and are the right shape and size for the period, the sights look like the other target sights I've seen on "target models" from the same time frame, and I didn't see any dishing or soft edges to the markings. Closer examination may reveal that to be inaccurate.

I admit though, I was in a rush when I first saw the gun, as I had made an unplanned stop on the way home for dinner, and didn't want to get in trouble with the wife. I'll try to give it a closer examination when I have the chance to.

Thanks for the advice and telling me what to look for guys, I do appreciate it.

 

[beagleye]

Shroud?

Does the ejector rod hang openly or is it in a shroud under the barrel?

Open=mk II
Shroud=mk I, triple lock (bonus points for less common with neat feature)

Here's a mk I with a bobbed hammer that I picked up last week. It has the recoil plate machined for accepting the 45 acp with moon clip. I have been enjoying the heck out of it. Accurate.

 

[Tony M.]

Those pictured above are the type of grips on this one, but the ejector rod does hang without a shroud.

I'll try to get photos either today or tomorrow.

 

[DCWilson]

Here's a thread I started about a year ago dealing with my converted .455 HE/Second.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...0-455-he-second-modified-target-shooting.html

I understand that what you are describing shows subtler modifications (if they are modifications), but I wanted to show what some of these .455 HEs turned into. They make fine .45 target revolvers.

 

[Hondo44]

Here's a thread I started about a year ago dealing with my converted .455 HE/Second.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...0-455-he-second-modified-target-shooting.html

I understand that what you are describing shows subtler modifications (if they are modifications), but I wanted to show what some of these .455 HEs turned into. They make fine .45 target revolvers.

David,
I went to your thread above. I always find these modified N frame discussions interesting, probably because the guns are different and unique yet still so shootable and exhibiting such craftsmanship many times although not all. And they are such mysteries without any definitive answers usually, but lots of intrigueing speculaion.

I find the "45 S&W" marking interesting as well. Some have speculated on it referring to the 45 Schofied. But that isn't likely IMO since it's a shorter cartridge and therefore a different chambering. I tend to agree with one poster that it has more to do with a personal inability to stamp Colt on a S&W. There's historical precedent for this sensitivity when one considers after S&W introduced the .38 S&W Spl, Colt saw fit to rename their version as the .38 Colt Special. Today, this sensitivity is almost non-existent, but may have existed 50 years ago. On the other hand, the factory didn't seem to have an issue stamping 45 Colt on their N frames so chambered early in the last century.

The only other thing I can speculate is that the "45 S&W" stamping was a knowledgeable and loyal reference to the actual 45 S&W cartridge the factory proposed during the introduction c. 1908 of the 44 New Century Military a.k.a. 44 Triplelock. According to the SCSW it was a factory endeavor to capture military contracts for their new N frame revolver since the military definitively declared they were seeking a 45 caliber handgun. The result of which as we all know of course was the Model 1911 Auto in 45 ACP. Just my 2 cents and mental girations.

 

[Tony M.]

Well, I had a chance to grab some photos and look a little more closely at the gun.

After looking again, I suspect that the cylinder was swapped out for a model 1917 version, as the serial does not match the rest of the gun, and there would seem to be about the right headspace for AR or moon clipped ammo.

Otherwise the gun still looks to me as though it hasn't been refinished, but I find only one mark on the frame that might be a proof mark of any kind. It's in the photos. There is also some kind of mark on the rear of the cylinder along with the (non matching) serial.

Standard 2 line address, and the frame and barrel serials match. Looking at the sight base for the front sight, I'm inclined to think it's probably an original sight, but I'm not sure. The rear sight has 2 elevation screws (I guess?)

Please see photos for more details. I suspect the gun would clean up pretty well, but there's no telling how much nicer it would or wouldn't look with a little bit of elbow grease, a silicone cloth and a soft bristled toothbrush.

The photos:

 

[mikepriwer]

If this gun is 1920's, or thereabouts, that is not a factory original
adjustable sight. It doesn't even fit right. The front sight does not
look factory , either.

Mike Priwer

 

[Tony M.]

Well, I guess Mike answered the question about originality.

How much should something like this one be worth as a shooter?

 

[DCWilson]

Well, it's a mix-and-match gun with sight modifications. Hard to put a value on that, but if I saw it on a shelf at a gun store with a $400 price on it, I'd probably buy it. The thing is that original or not, an early .45 ACP with adjustable sights is not something you see every day. At $500 I would negotiate, and at $600 or above I would probably pass it by in silence.

Further info: with that serial number the gun was shipped in early 1916. The crown over 41 (or 11?) is some kind of British viewmark; my converted .455 has a crown over 30 in that location. The serial number on the cylinder suggests it was manufactured in 1938 and originally installed in a Brazilian contract 1917. The rear sight, with two screws in the rear, is a 1930s design. Before that, I believe there was only a single screw on the rear of an adjustable rear sight. The front sight looks home made to me. I don't recognize that as a standard front sight from any company. If you pulled the rear sight, there might be a serial number on the underside of the long base; that might help determine what model that sight was on originally.

If we assume the Brazilian was not available for parting out until the 1950s at the earliest, that dates part of the modification to this gun. But better adjustable sights were available at that time, so the use of the older prewar form may indicate that this gun was originally a target-converted .455, and the addition of the .45 ACP cylinder came along later.

Also, I don't think dropping in a 1917 cylinder would be a simple task. Aren't those cylinders shorter than the regular .44 Special/.455 cylinder? If so, the B/C gap would need to be adjusted, which probably means removing the barrel and planing the back of the surface that mates to the frame to allow another full turn as it was threaded in.

Or maybe my fevered brain is seeing more complexity than needs to be there. Apply Occam's razor. In any event, this is a very interesting gun.

 

[Hondo44]

It looks like a fine revolver, true not collectible but a good looking shooter. Yes, a 455 Mark II HE 2nd Model with at least one UK or Canadian stamp left on the butt. The rear sight is a Smith pre war but of later vintage than the gun which would not have the two screws together, that came later. And as Mike said, it doesn't fit the front end of the top strap like a factory installation. The front base is original but not a factory blade. If it were mine I'd shape it correctly or try to obtain a factory front sight blade to replace it with, it would improve the looks a bunch.

The cylinder does appear to be a late issue 1917 with the proper eagle w/S24 stamp. I suspect it is a re-blue albeit a very nice one, the hammer pin below the cylinder release thumbpiece appears incorrectly polished flat when re-blued. The stocks are period correct 455 commercial pre 1920 but you'll need to confirm the serial # on the inside of the right grip stock matches the gun.

 

[Hondo44]

I see David has left some excellent observations while I was composing my post.

One comment on the cylinder lengths of the 44 Special, 455 and 45 ACP. David is right they are different, nomimal lengths are published at 1.575" for the 44, 1.55 for the 455 and 1.53" for the 45 . But IMO the approximate 1/8" shoulder on your barrel would virtually be eliminated had it been turned one revolution. Since the length given are nominal and considering manufacturing tolerances, the ACP cylinder may have been close enough to work as is.

I agree with his price range as well. What are they asking for it?

 

[beagleye]

Can't quite make it out, it kind of looks like a faint proof mark on the back of the cylinder, opposite side from the number.

 

[Hondo44]

Can't quite make it out, it kind of looks like a faint proof mark on the back of the cylinder, opposite side from the number.

Please see above, "The cylinder does appear to be a late issue 1917 with the proper eagle w/S24 stamp." It's the US military stamp used on all military contract 1917 revolvers oriented to be right side up when read in the 6 o'clock position.

 

[zywina]

I am very happt this conversation came up, as also bought a HE Mark 2 targeted revolver this past winter,yes it may not be original completely but the rear target sight and hammer intrigued me to buy it!
The rear sight in not adjustable for height, only able to be drifted for windage with a set screw to keep it afixed to desired position, dovetail for this sight starts about same location as rear of the cylinder, front sight is a standard fixed front that has been modified by cut away half of the rear of the blade wich has nicely filedhorzontal lines to finnish of this modifcation of the front target blade. The hammer has been shorted and made into a offset checkered target type trigger. Other than this it is a standard 455 HE Mark 2 6.5" barreled commercial finnished with no military markings on the frame other than a British mark on the but of (&30) with serial #69840 wich matches same ser# on barrel, cylinder and but, it also has standard service grips, lanyard. In the next while I will try to get a friend to help post some photos here, as well a factory letter needs to be done. If anyone wants anyother info. please feel free to PM me here or respond right here, cheers Dale Z in Canada!