Which 40 S&W load would you choose?

[125JHP]

I made up a bunch of 180gr Berry's CPL-FP test loads using 4 powders and 4 or 5 charge steps each. Due to the number of loads, I only chronographed 3 shots each on target. The powders were N-350, AA-5, HS-7 and N-330. I then measured each 3-shot target group to find the top 3 or 4 (which also just happened to be in the upper range of velocity). I shot at 10yds using a just a hand rest off the tailgate.

I eliminated all HS-7 and N-330 loads due to size of group (maybe unrealistic with just 3 shots, but...)

The best group was with 6.8gr N-350 (1.3"@1078fps)
Next was 7.0 of AA-5 (1.6" @ 980 fps)
third was 7.6 of AA-5 (just under 2"@ 1057fps)
last was 7.3 AA-5 (2" @ 1033fps)

ALL of these loads are over the powder manufacturer's load book maximums (both n-350 and AA-5 are over max by .4 gr). so don't try this at home kids.

I worked up to them and checked primers as I shot. All are starting to show signs of pressure in my gun but I don't think its excessive - some flattening of the primer (primer dent is still sharp & deep-not flattened) and some squaring of the shoulder (not always and not filling up the full primer pocket) and a little crater around the firing pin hole (normal even with lower power loads in this gun).

N-350 is slower than AA-5 and as I understand it, slower powders are said to be better in short bbls with heavy bullets (for a given caliber).

however AA-5 meters more consistently and is a lot cheaper.

here in Arizona it gets pretty hot in the summer and can get to the teens in the winter - I am not sure of the temperature stability of AA-5 but I understand that N-350 is supposed to be stable in higher temps (correct me if I am wrong).

I would be using these loads to practice with primarily, might use them for practical shooting matches and would try to work up duplicate performance of SD carry loads using 180 gr JHP such as Gold Dot or some of the others.
So, which powder would you go with for the next batch of 200?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well, 125, it seems that you are asking for validation of loads that are outside of the pressure limits of the cartridge.

Sorry, most of us won't do that. I know that I won't. That being said, with plated bullets, you should be about 1gr less than published jacketed data because you are supposed to load to "lead" bullet data.

As far as powders go, in the 40S&W Unique is as fast as I go with my preferred powder being SR4756. It just seems to have the right balance of velocity/pressure for my non-supported firearms PLUS I have a bunch of it because I use it for other calibers too!

AA#5 is a great powder but what it hates is to be used at the bottom end of it's pressure range. You can stick a bullet by trying to go too low, and yeah, don't ask how I know that!

Slower powders give more velocity than fast regardless of barrel length. What I mean is that in the same length barrel, the slower one will always win that race. You get nothing for free so the energy that isn't used up in the barrel is burnt outside of it which means flash and bang. FWIW


At any rate, sounds like you are having fun. Just be safe.

 

[125JHP]

Thanks for the caution Skip, I do try to watch it, but you know what they say about the cat and curiosity.
I did not know that about AA-5 - Thanks, I'll note that.

What gives me a slightly queezy feeling about AA-5 is all the different owners/manufacturers over the years. I don't know if the formula-process-quality is the same or if load data from 19xx is still good for recent lots. I know their load booklets max charges have changed dramatically but is that due to lawyers and liability or different test bbl or due to formulation? The samples I tried were up to a full grain over 2002 published max yet it did not feel like a stiff load and didn't have much in the way of pressure indication. I find it common to have wide variance of max load recommendations found in different publications or even the same book but different years. Some rifle loads are 3 or 4 grains apart in their max load depending on where you look.

I found several load references for lead and CPL from a IPSC shooters list dated 2003, I used these loads as max known and worked up to them in .3 increments, looking for primer signs and sharp recoil (some even had shorter OAL than I used). What else can you look for, short of kaboom?

I realize they are using custom barrels that _might_ stand higher pressure. I sure wouldn't try these in a Glock or other not-fully-supported chamber design.
I'll check the primers further under the microscope in the next couple days but I didn't have any popped primers, gas leaks, case issues or other signs. Most of the primers, although flat, still have rounded shoulders. I know that isn't a sure sign but it is an indicator of sorts.

 

[fredj338]

I haven't used the VV powders in handgun rounds, great stuff, but too pricey & not always available. I have run several diff powders w/ diff bullet types in the 40 & really like WSF or Unique under all bullet wts/styles. I have a very picky 4006 that wasn't particularly accurate w/ most ammo. Then I fed it some 165gr Berry's w/ WSF & was getting 1 1/2" groups @ 50ft. So tried it w/ my fav cast 175gr bullet & sim results. It's cheaper, available, I would give WSF a try & get back to me. Nothing wrong w/ AA powders, if I were to choose between #2 & #5, it would be #5 all day. Just a bit more room to manouver than w/ AA#2.

 

[Rule3]

Well to be blunt. With only 3 rounds tested(of plated bullets) outside of recommended loads what answer do you expect?

Only you can determine what is right for you.

Why reinvent the wheel?, that's why manuals have published loads indicating the most accurate.

 

[rsrocket1]

Unique is probably the best powder to use for max loads. You can get max velocity out of a 180g bullet with Power Pistol, but the flash will be enormous which may not be desirable. Unique gets you within a couple dozen fps of Power Pistol for the same pressures (insignificant), but has built-in flash suppressors.

 

[125JHP]

Well to be blunt. With only 3 rounds tested(of plated bullets) outside of recommended loads what answer do you expect?

Only you can determine what is right for you.

Correct. and I intend to find an answer I'm comfortable with.
I find Unique too dirty and is faster than AA5. I generally don't like to use it.

What I'm looking for is further experience and insight on using a fast powder vs a slow powder at the upper edge of safe loads from knowledgeable users on this and other forums. I also feel there is a difference in the published data safety factor (usable in a wide variety of guns and other variables) and the very real safe limit for a max load used in my gear. I also know that when I decide what I think that is... to back off a little from that and be satisfied I did the best I could. Why do climbers climb a sheer cliff?

My main concern with the two powders is that there is little room for error with the faster powder, such as seating the bullet a little too deep, or throwing a tenth grain too much powder.

I've looked at the two loads under the microscope and can easily see that the AA5 loads are much higher pressure than the N-350 (The photos attached to this post are N-350. The black marks are from a sharpie-not powder or gas).
I think there is room to work with this load and reduce it some and still make major and duplicate OEM velocities for JHP it appears the better of the two to explore further. That will take more than 3 rounds.

thanks for your input

 

[125JHP]

Here are some of the AA5 loads. Note that I did shoot some with higher powder charges with similar looking results.

These primers are noticeably flatter with machining marks visible and much more squared shoulders

 

[cjw3]

I used a good bit of #5 with 180 grain bullets when I started loading .40 back in the '90's. I stuck with the available recipes and was always satisfied with how consistently (and smoothly) it went through the measure and how clean burning it was.

Being a little less expensive than some of the other powders available was also a plus.

 

[125JHP]

I used a good bit of #5 with 180 grain bullets when I started loading .40 back in the '90's. I stuck with the available recipes and was always satisfied with how consistently (and smoothly) it went through the measure and how clean burning it was.

Being a little less expensive than some of the other powders available was also a plus.

That's what I like about it too.

 

[Titegroups]

In an autoloader the slide bottoming out also indicates your over max. if not for the cartridge for the gun. I've done the same type of things you have with a plastic 10mm. Now I stick to factory loads in autos and use heavy built revolvers which are better suited for such things.

 

[Rule3]

Why not try some Power Pistol or Win Auto Comp with regular FMJ 180 bullets. Both Speer and Hornady list top loads for them especially PP

Hornadys top load of PP with a 180 gr FN is 1100 fps out of 4" SW 4006. YMMV

It's a tested load.

Pushing the envelope does what? For SD if it achieves 1100, what will 1200 do that it will not?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Pushing the envelope does what? For SD if it achieves 1100, what will 1200 do that it will not?

Exit? Then you have other worries!

 

[125JHP]

I hear ya on the issue of increasing recoil spring weight as ya increase power. Don't wanna batter the slide.

OK to answer some of your other questions...

WAP is very close to AA5 and PowerPistol is very close to N-330 Unique is faster than both N330 and AA5

I use the powders I do because I have them on hand and its convenient, if there is load data available I want to see how it performs. I use AA5 and N350 in a number of other loads so I am not inclined to buy powders I haven't used before unless there is compelling reason. I tried Varget due to its wide range of uses and temperature stability and switched to it for some of my standard loads due to its performance. I have also tried W231, N-320 and AA-7, so for this test I was using some of the other powders I had on hand instead of buying powder-du-jour of similar burn rates.

I will often make up test loads with different powders to see which gives me the performance I am looking for with a particular bullet. Sort of like ladder testing. Then I load up a larger quantity for general use until I run out. This way I can compare powder performance and find the one that works in the fewest number of experimental loads. Then I can refine from there.

Many times (and this is one of them) I am trying to duplicate a factory load velocity in an economical practice round. So, if for example, I chrono a factory Hornady Critical Defense or a Speer God Dot or a winchester ranger SXT round out of my gun and it clocks 1100 fps then I should be able to come up with a similar load for practice - yes? 180 gr should shoot pretty much the same at pistol distances, regardless if it is a JHP or a Copper Plated Lead, as long as the velocity is about the same. If I go thru the available load books and find one source says the max load/vel is only XXg/980 fps, and another source indicating a slightly hotter load as max with a velocity of 1050 fps and some competition shooters are loading past that point, it leaves me wondering if I can safely work it up in my gun to match the OEM 1100 fps. Many times I can. I do know that some of the OEM hi performance rounds I have shot have considerable more recoil than what I am putting together. Even the Blazer and S&B practice ammo clocks close to 1000 fps in this same gun.

Since manufactures don't publish their data, you only have their bullet weight and velocity in your gun to go on and secondary indicators of how well your achieving the desired results safely.


So does anyone have any opinions of the primer pics I posted?

 

[Rule3]

Manufacturers have powders we don't. I just recently bought a bunch of PP and have been playing with it in several calibers.

It is the go to powder for Hornady in the 9mm. I pretty much use HP 38 for most range blasting but PP is definitely different. It must have more nitro in it as it is certainly louder. Burns clean and a lot of velocity in the 9MM and 40SW.

 

[noylj]

For my three .40s, AA5 and Silhouette are the most consistently accurate. However, I do not approach max loads in the .40 and would not want to. ANY error, such a bullet set-back or a weak case or whatever, can turn your loads into a mini-bomb.
I would probably NOT shoot the AA5 load as, to me anyway, it is too fast for a max load.
Finally, primer appearance only really shows an effect after you are well above handgun pressure.
I like to start with at least 100 virgin cases. I fire factory ammo and measure the expansion bulge (about 1/4" above the extractor groove) before and after firing--and measure at least four times around the case.
Then I work up loads with the virgin brass, watching for recoil heavier than factory and case expansion equal or exceeding factory expansion.
180gn plated
6.8gr N-350 (1.3"@1078fps): in all my compiles data, I do not have any loads for lead or plated using N350. For jacketed bullets, my lowest max is 6.0gn for 1040fps. I would call this load over max.
Next was 7.0 of AA-5 (1.6" @ 980 fps): I have one manual that shows 6.0gn as max. Max loads should not be getting much over 975fps--this would appear to be your max load
third was 7.6 of AA-5 (just under 2"@ 1057fps): I consider this to be over max pressure
last was 7.3 AA-5 (2" @ 1033fps): I consider this to be over max pressure
I would stick with the N350 load, as being the only load that is probably not over max pressure.
I have found loads of 5.6-6.5gn AA5 to be accurate.
For a plated 180gn I found that 6.2gn of Silhouette and 9.0gn of AA7 was accurate.
Loads with AA7, Silhouette, and 3N37 would be "safer" than using a relatively fast powder

 

[bluetopper]

I've really never done any load testing at 10yds. I assume if you are load testing you are shooting from a rested/bench position. Give the gun a little more credit than that, stretch it on out to 25yds at least, then you can tell a little more as to what's going on as far as group sizing goes.

 

[fredj338]

Correct. and I intend to find an answer I'm comfortable with.
I find Unique too dirty and is faster than AA5. I generally don't like to use it.

What I'm looking for is further experience and insight on using a fast powder vs a slow powder at the upper edge of safe loads from knowledgeable users on this and other forums. I also feel there is a difference in the published data safety factor (usable in a wide variety of guns and other variables) and the very real safe limit for a max load used in my gear. I also know that when I decide what I think that is... to back off a little from that and be satisfied I did the best I could. Why do climbers climb a sheer cliff?

My main concern with the two powders is that there is little room for error with the faster powder, such as seating the bullet a little too deep, or throwing a tenth grain too much powder.

I've looked at the two loads under the microscope and can easily see that the AA5 loads are much higher pressure than the N-350 (The photos attached to this post are N-350. The black marks are from a sharpie-not powder or gas).
I think there is room to work with this load and reduce it some and still make major and duplicate OEM velocities for JHP it appears the better of the two to explore further. That will take more than 3 rounds.

thanks for your input

Al

Not surprising as V350 is quite a bit slower burning, lower pressure per grain, than AA#5. AA#5 is best used at medium pressure levels in high pressure rounds like the 9mm & 40 IMO.

 

[fredj338]

...

WAP is very close to AA5 and PowerPistol is very close to N-330 Unique is faster than both N330 and AA5
?

Yes & no. Burn rates vary a bit from cartridge to cartridge. In the 9mm & 40, I find AA#5 a bit faster than Unique or WSF, based on my chronograph exp.

 

[125JHP]

Thanks for the analysis noylj & fred... I do a lot of the same things

I don't think I'm living as close to the edge as I originally thought and need to correct what I said above.... These loads are NOT above published data but they ARE above Powder Manuf Data.... thus validating another one of my statements above.

As I had originally looked at the Vhit, AA and Hodgdon load data for each of their powders and found that they were way below the loads I had found listed in an on-line IPSC load list. I had used the list as a high end to work up to and was concerned when my best loads were substantially above the powder manuf. data but I didn't see pressure signs while shooting or in the primers.

While measuring to see if there was excessive case-head expansion, I happened to look at the Speer #13 manual and find all my loads are below what they indicate as max. for each powder. They also list JHP and TMJ as the same loads. According to pg 429 of same manual, TMJ is not FMJ but is their term for CPL-copper plated lead. This suggests using jacketed data and not lead bullet data for CPL (such as Berrys and Rainier). The differences in loads between Speer and OEM powder manuf are as follows;

180gr .40 S&W all out of a 4" bbl
AA-5
7.6 gr @ 1.125-1.130" - Max load I tested
2002 & 2008 Accurate manual Max= 6.6 gr @ 1.135"
Speer # 13 manual Max = 7.8 gr @ 1.120"
--------------
N-350
6.8 gr @ 1.125" - Max load I tested
6.7 gr @ 1.126" - 2002 Vhit guide
6.2 gr @ 1.125" - 2009 Vhit guide What changed?
6.9 gr @ 1.120" - Speer #13

My Max load for HS-7 is below the Speer starting load and a full grain below their max for HS-7

So I guess without losing further sleep, I will use either of the two loads I asked about since they appear ok in my gun.

I agree that AA-5 can raise pressures very quickly especially if any bullet setback occurs. That is one reason I was leaning toward the N-350 load. The 7.0 of AA5 seems to duplicate commercial practice ammo (S&B and Blazer I have tried) so I will probably use that and the N-350 is close enough to JHP SD loads that I can use it with XTP and Gold Dots to simulate commercial carry ammo for practice. (thus avoiding the debate of CCW w/reloads)

I shoot initial tests at 10 yards for a couple reasons, first being my primary concern is shooting over my chronograph 10' away, second is that there isn't much room in the wash I use and I would have to find another spot and third, I'm using small red dots on 8" paper plates as cheap sighting targets. Since I'm out in the desert alongside a dirt road in a dip, I use the tailgate and a hand/barrel rest for Q&D testing. When I want a bench & bags, I have to drive an hour to the range. Fourth, 7 & 10yds are common SD practice distance.