Which Dexron for gun oil?

[Wheel-er]

Does it matter which Dexron ATF?

 

[RussellD]

mobile 1 synthetic...

 

[Smith357]

Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later will work.

I just use what ever is on sale when I'm making up my batches of Ed's Red

From: [email protected] (Ed Harris)
Subject: Ed's Red, Revised

Mix Your Own "Ed's Red" Bore Cleaner... It Really Works!

By Ed Harris Rev. 12-27-94

Three years ago I mixed my first "Ed's Red" and I still think
the "recipe" is a great idea. If you have never tried it, or
maybe lost the recipe, I urge you save this and mix your own.
My followers on the FIREARMS Echo think it's the best thing since
smokeless powder! Therefore, I'll summarize the story again
for the passing parade that didn't get it the first time...

I originally did this because I used a lot of rifle bore cleaner
and was deterred by the high price of commercial products. I
knew there was no technical reason why you could not mix an
effective bore cleaner using common hardware store ingredients
which would be inexpensive, effective, and provide reasonable
corrosion protection and adequate lubrication.

The "recipe" is based on proven principles and incorporates two
polar and two nonpolar ingredients. It is adapted from a formula
in Hatcher's Notebook, Frankford Arsenal Cleaner No.18, but
substituting equivalent modern materials. I had the help of an
organic chemist in doing this and we knew there would be no
"surprises" The original Hatcher recipe called for equal parts
of acetone, turpentine, Pratts Astral Oil and sperm oil, and
optionally 200 grams of lanolin added per liter.

Pratts Astral oil was nothing more than acid free, deodorized
kerosene. We use K-1 kerosene of the type normally sold for
indoor space heaters. An inexpensive, effective substitute for
sperm oil is Dexron (II, IIe or III) automatic transmission
fluid. Prior to about 1950 that most ATF's were sperm oil based,
but during WWII a synthetic was developed for use in precision
instruments. With the great demand for automatic transmission
autos after WWII, sperm oil was no longer practical to produce
ATF in the quantity demanded, so the synthetic material became
the basis for the Dexron fluids we know today. The additives in
ATFs which include organometallic antioxidants and surfactants,
make it highly suitable for our intended purpose.

Hatcher's original formula used gum spirits of turpentine, but
turpentine is expensive and highly flammable. Cheaper and safer is
aliphatic mineral spirits, which is a petroleum based "safety solvent"
used for thinning oil based paints and as automotive parts cleaner.
It is commonly sold under the names "odorless mineral spirits,"
"Stoddard Solvent" or "Varsol".

There isn't anything in Ed's Red which will chemically remove
copper fouling, but it does a better job on carbon residue than
anything out there. Several users have told me, that with
exclusive use of "ER" does reduce the buildup of copper fouling,
because it removes old impacted fouling which is left by other
cleaners, reducing the adhesion of abraded metal to the surface,
and leaving a cleaner surface which reduces subsequent fouling.
It appears that "ER" will actually remove metal fouling it if you
let it "soak" so the surfactants will do the job, though you may
have to be patient.

The lanolin is optional. The cleaner works quite well without
it. Incorporating the lanolin makes the cleaner easier on the
hands, and provides better residual lubrication and corrosion protection if
you use the cleaner as a protectant for long term storage. If you want
to minimize cost, you can leave the lanolin out and save about $8
per gallon. Mix some yourself. I know it will work as well for you
as it does for me.

CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner

1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS #64741-49-9,
or substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or equivalent,
(aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.

(Optional up to 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon,
OK to substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)

MIXING INSTRUCTIONS:

Mix outdoors, in good ventilation. Use a clean 1 gallon metal,
chemical-resistant, heavy gage PET or PVC plastic container.
NFPA approved plastic gasoline storage containers are also OK.
Do NOT use HDPE, which is breathable because the acetone will
evaporate. The acetone in ER will attack HDPE in about 6 months,
making a heck of a mess!

Add the ATF first. Use the empty container to measure the other
components, so that it is thoroughly rinsed. If you incorporate
the lanolin into the mixture, melt this carefully in a double
boiler, taking precautions against fire. Pour the melted lanolin
it into a larger container, rinsing the lanolin container with
the bore cleaner mix, and stirring until it is all dissolved.

I recommend diverting a small quantity, up to 4 ozs. per quart of
the 50-50 ATF/kerosene mix for use as an "ER-compatible" gun oil.
This can be done without impairing the effectiveness of the mix.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR USING
Ed's Red Bore Cleaner:

1. Open the firearm action and ensure the bore is clear.
Cleaning is most effective when done while the barrel is
still warm to the touch from firing. Saturate a cotton
patch with bore cleaner, wrap or impale on jag and push it
through the bore from breech to muzzle. The patch should be
a snug fit. Let the first patch fall off and do not pull it
back into the bore.

2. Wet a second patch, and similarly start it into the bore
from the breech, this time scrubbing from the throat area
forward in 4-5" strokes and gradually advancing until the
patch emerges out the muzzle. Waiting approximately 1 minute
to let the bore cleaner soak will improve its action.

3. For pitted, heavily carbon-fouled "rattle battle" guns,
leaded revolvers or neglected bores a bronze brush wet with
bore cleaner may be used to remove stubborn deposits. This
is unnecessary for smooth, target-grade barrels in routine
use.

4. Use a final wet patch pushed straight through the bore to
flush out loosened residue dissolved by Ed's Red. Let the
patch fall off the jag without pulling it back into the
bore. If you are finished firing, leaving the bore wet will
protect it from rust for up to 30 days. If the lanolin is
incorporated into the mixture, it will protect the firearm
from rust for up to two years. For longer term storage I
recommend use of Lee Liquid Alox as a Cosmolene substitute.
"ER" will readily remove hardened Alox or Cosmolene.

5. Wipe spilled Ed's Red from exterior surfaces before storing
the gun. While Ed's Red is harmless to blue and nickel
finishes, the acetone it contains is harmful to most wood
finishes).

6. Before firing again, push two dry patches through the bore
and dry the chamber, using a patch wrapped around a suitably
sized brush or jag. First shot point of impact usually will
not be disturbed by Ed's Red if the bore is cleaned as
described.

7. I have determined to my satisfaction that when Ed's Red is
used exclusively and thoroughly, that hot water cleaning is
unnecessary after use of Pyrodex or military chlorate
primers. However, if bores are not wiped between shots and
shots and are heavily caked from black powder fouling, hot
water cleaning is recommended first to break up heavy
fouling deposits. Water cleaning should be followed by a
thorough flush with Ed's Red to prevent after-rusting which
could result from residual moisture. It is ALWAYS good practice
to clean TWICE, TWO DAYS APART whenever using chlorate primed
ammunition, just to make sure you get all the residue out.


LABEL AND OBLIGATORY SAFETY WARNINGS:

RIFLE BORE CLEANER
CAUTION:
HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED.

KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN

1. Flammable mixture. Keep away from heat, sparks or flame.

2. FIRST AID, If swallowed DO NOT induce vomiting, call
physician immediately. In case of eye contact immediately
flush thoroughly with water and call a physician. For skin
contact wash thoroughly.

3. Use with adequate ventilation. Avoid breathing vapors or
spray mist. It is a violation of Federal law to use this
product in a manner inconsistent with its labelling. Reports
have associated repeated and prolonged occupational
overexposure to solvents with permanent brain and nervous
system damage. If using in closed armory vaults lacking
forced air ventilation wear respiratory protection meeting
NIOSH TC23C or equivalent. Keep container tightly closed
when not in use.

This "Recipe" is placed in the public domain, and may be freely
distributed provided that it is done so in its entirely with all
instructions and safety warnings included herein, and that proper
attribution is given to the author.

In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed

 

[Wheel-er]

Thanks for the info, guys.

 

[chief38]

Gee, I wonder which GUN OIL I should put into my car's transmission, Hoppes or CLP?? LOL, LOL

Merry Christmas Everyone!

chief38

 

[badguybuster]

Ha Ha ^^What he said.

 

[Wheel-er]

Ha Ha what he said.

 

[Babalooie]

If you're looking for something exotic that works, try Kroil. It's a synthetic that is used in industry, and sold by Brownell's and Midway USA. Great stuff. Too expensive to use as trans fluid.

 

[radman]

new to the site so bear with me.........
i have an older model S&W 22cal double action revolver with a 5" barrel (1960's)
wood checkered grips.
no model number on the piece at all
22 long rifle ctg stamped on one side of barrel / smith*wesson on the other side.

anyone have any ideas on this piece or value guess

 

[Wheel-er]

So it sounds exotic?

 

[Sully]

Smartest, sharpest gunman I know of ( the smith I use...) uses Mobile 1 5W-20.! I intend on switching as soon as my FP-10 runs out

 

[Sully]

Hi Chief38

You bring up a very legitimate point. As that is EXACTLY how it hit me when I first read Dexron made a superior gun oil.......

Dexron is a HYDRAULIC fluid...it is NOT a "preservative / lubricant" product.

 

[Babalooie]

Thanks, Babalooie.

I use Kroil on occasion, but also like Remoil and some good old fashioned motor oil. My father used to use it instead of Three in One oil, back in the day. Have a few bottles in my garage for cars I no longer own. 10W 30 or 5W something.

Penetrating oil has properties that remove or dissolve rust. Bluing is a form of rust. Guess that's why it isn't recommended for long term storage. I suppose it wouldn't hurt a stainless steel gun, but who knows?

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I still predominately use WD-40 and 3-1 oil. Works and has worked for years.

 

[chief38]

Wheel-er:

I was just poking some good clean fun, and did not mean anything derogatory; I just couldn't resist!! Personally, my thoughts are similar to yours on the fact that most of the products sold to and for hobbyists are repackaged products that are used by other larger industries. Albeit, sometimes those smaller resellers do add a "secret ingredient" or two which unfortunately, manufacturers never tell us about.

Truth be told, for the way that most of us on this Forum take care of our guns, almost ANY oil and bore cleaner would work just fine! The reason I say this is because I would think that most of us are really into our collections and actively care for and properly store them. You can take a guy that uses the best oils, lubricants and preservatives in the world, and if he neglects to use them or doesn't inspect his guns on a regular basis, they will eventually fail - nothing lasts forever - except of course death & taxes.

My personal all time favorite is a product that is currently unavailable (I purchased 10 gallons of it when I heard it was to be discontinued though) is Rig #2 Oil. It is a wonderful product that is a cleaner, lubricant and preservative, much like CLP. The consistency is very thin and the carrier soon evaporates leaving behind a microscopic wax to protect the metal. The product will not attract dust, dirt, powder, etc and will therefore not turn into a gritty mess inside your action.It has never failed me, and the good new is that I got an e-mail from Birchwood - Casey just last week letting me know that they are planning to manufacture it (this coming year) once again.

Hope all you Guys and Gals have a Merry Christmas!!

Regards,
chief38

 

[SMSgt]

I've used just about everything over the years, and the only product that was a major disappointment was WD-40. Not only is it terribly gummy, halfway through a hunt in a light snow, the barrel broke out in rust. Never put a drop of it on a firearm again.

As far as current gun lubes go, I'm using up a bottle of Gunzilla. Tried it on a suggestion, less than impressed with the price, and haven't seen any "better than the rest" results. Mobil-1, 3-in-1, Singer sewing machine oil, ATF fluid, marine bearing grease; used them all at one time or another, and they all work if reapplied as needed. The only downside to ATF is your gun smells like leaky tranmission and leaves drip spots on the floor of the safe!

I clean/oil/lube my guns after every outing--seldom inbetween. I recently pulled some firearms out of cases that hadn't seen daylight in near 20 years and none showed any sign of rust. Last thing used on them? Hoppes and plain old Outers gun oil.

 

[SMSgt]

Dexron is a HYDRAULIC fluid...it is NOT a "preservative / lubricant" product.

Hydraulic fluids also are a lubricant and coolant, just like engine oil ... or else hydraulic systems would bind up in a hurry.

 

[tomcatt51]

This is one of those things where "what are you asking?". Want a lubricant for yor revo? Rem Oil or Mobil 1. If you want a cleaner, the Ed's Red mix. Want to store your gun? Corrosion X.

 

[rburg]

We lose perspective in this kind of discussion. Those with guns made in the 19-teens or 1930s must have had them stored in a sealed canister out in the desert. Back then, what do you think the owners did? Drive to a prehistoric Walmart and loot the guns section for some high dollar gun specific oil? A better guess: they used anything at hand. I'd guess coal tar or bacon grease were in the mix. Whatever they had and used, somehow it worked wonders for the last 70 to 90 years, or more. You just don't need $10 an ounce oil to lubricate and protect your treasures.

I always tell a story in these posts so here goes: Way back in the dark ages, I worked like a dog to accumulate the funds for a then brand new 870 Remington. I was tired of getting sent into the briar patch to flush the rabbit or quail. I wanted to be a hunter, not the pooch. So we went to a local sporting goods store with my catch of money. They'd put an ad in the weekend paper and the 870s were being discounted. I bought it, plus a bunch of ammo, some useful, others useless(7/8th ounce slugs and #4 buck.) But when bunny season opened, Dad and I went hunting! And one day in the first week or two the forecast called for a chance of a shower. OK. We went anyhow.

And the rain started as we were leaving the truck. Just a sprinkle, as predicted. But after a while it became a downpour. Then it continued. We sought refuge in a half fallen down barn. The fallen half was sitting on top of an old Ferd 8N tractor. We'd brought our lunch, as had been our habit for all the time I could remember. So we ate, and the rain increased, even though we didn't think that was possible. And I looked down at my new 870 and saw it turning red before my eyes. I was upset, and even considered abandoning the hunt and making a run for the truck. But had I done that, I'd have lost my father and hunting. So I suffered for a while.

Then I got a bright idea. I went to the fallen half of the barn, found the dipstick on the tractor, and pulled it out. It had a congealed mass hanging on the bottom. More like tar than oil. But when I smeared it on a convenient piece of wood, it seemed to have some oil like qualities still.

So I cut the tail off my shirt (to the great amusement of my father) and after about a half dozen dips, I had an oily rag. I took it over to where he was sitting and proceeded to smear it on the barrel an action of my new gun. He was watching. Then when I looked, there was red on the rag but none on the gun. I was pretty proud of myself. Even more so when he said "give me that rag when you're done." Yes, it worked on his M12, too. (Currently my oldest son is in possession of it.) With a good coating of ancient contaminated oil, we hunted back toward the car, me considering hunting down the TV weatherman and making him a casualty of the Remington. Everyone survived. But my trust for weather guessers went to zero (where its remained for 45 years.)

The chemicals we use on our guns is more aimed at soothing our guilt than having any superior qualities over the next item on the shelf.

I do use gun specific gun products. Mostly CLP these days, because I have an ample supply. But I also have WD40, which I take with me more places than I'd like to admit. Its the best gun first aid developed. For getting caught out in a downpour, not for long term storage, etc. I'll defend it against all attackers. Its better than your wonder lube, its available at almost every convenience store, hardware, grocery, you name it. It will tunnel under the rain or swamp water to metal. Then it will defend its parts for the duration of that day, and even the next. And if you reapply it, it'll make like the energizer bunny and keep on working.

By the summer of '66 (that's 1966, not 1866 you wise guys) I'd bought a then new Browning T2. It was the prettiest gun I'd ever seen to that date, and it was all mine. Still is. The owner of the gun shop took mercy on me when I bought it, too. Maybe because it had been on his shelf far too long, I don't know... But he threw in some ammo (different brands, speeds, bullet weights.) From that I discovered the gun liked Remington gold bullet hollow points. But the styrafoam in the cardboard box had a can of Browning oil. He threw in a 2nd and said if I was careful, it would last the life of my rifle. Who knew how long I'd last..

So that little rifle has had nothing but that oil used on it. Still looks pretty good for the life it had under my stewardship. But I'd bet no one here would recommend it as being "good". It does the job.

As for using automotive products, I don't. But I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I had nothing better. I run my jeeps on Mobil 1. Yes, in the engine and in the differentials (they make Mobil 1 gear oil). My reasons for not using it is its tendency to rub off on my clothes. I don't need engine oil on my pants!

But if you want an impressive test, get a little Mobil 1 (you pick the weight). Then get an equal quantity of your high dollar wonder lube. Put them in some kind of container and put them in the freezer overnight. Yep, with the thermostat all the way down. Then the next morning get a couple of beer cans (soft drink cans would be OK but less fun to empty). Pour both in the cans (cut them in half to expedite that.) What, the wonder oil doesn't pour? Sorry, if necessary, allow it to warm to room temp. Don't worry, Mobil 1 is liquid at -30. Then for fun, put both on a hot plate (showing my age again) or the stove. And watch what happens. The Mobil 1 will get pretty darn hot, but won't boil off or steam or anything. It just sits there getting hotter. I have no idea what your wonder lube will do, but I'd bet the best you can hope for is the same performance as the Mobil 1.

The moral to all this is you can do worse than Mobil 1 for about any purpose, including keeping your engine running just fine. And there's a lot of profit built into the gun products. Not so much at Walmart automotive section (5 quart jug for maybe $25.) And back during the pre-WWII period, then didn't have either. But the guns survived. Some very nicely.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

We lose perspective in this kind of discussion. Those with guns made in the 19-teens or 1930s must have had them stored in a sealed canister out in the desert. Back then, what do you think the owners did? Drive to a prehistoric Walmart and loot the guns section for some high dollar gun specific oil? A better guess: they used anything at hand. I'd guess coal tar or bacon grease were in the mix. Whatever they had and used, somehow it worked wonders for the last 70 to 90 years, or more. You just don't need $10 an ounce oil to lubricate and protect your treasures.

I always tell a story in these posts so here goes: Way back in the dark ages, I worked like a dog to accumulate the funds for a then brand new 870 Remington. I was tired of getting sent into the briar patch to flush the rabbit or quail. I wanted to be a hunter, not the pooch. So we went to a local sporting goods store with my catch of money. They'd put an ad in the weekend paper and the 870s were being discounted. I bought it, plus a bunch of ammo, some useful, others useless(7/8th ounce slugs and #4 buck.) But when bunny season opened, Dad and I went hunting! And one day in the first week or two the forecast called for a chance of a shower. OK. We went anyhow.

And the rain started as we were leaving the truck. Just a sprinkle, as predicted. But after a while it became a downpour. Then it continued. We sought refuge in a half fallen down barn. The fallen half was sitting on top of an old Ferd 8N tractor. We'd brought our lunch, as had been our habit for all the time I could remember. So we ate, and the rain increased, even though we didn't think that was possible. And I looked down at my new 870 and saw it turning red before my eyes. I was upset, and even considered abandoning the hunt and making a run for the truck. But had I done that, I'd have lost my father and hunting. So I suffered for a while.

Then I got a bright idea. I went to the fallen half of the barn, found the dipstick on the tractor, and pulled it out. It had a congealed mass hanging on the bottom. More like tar than oil. But when I smeared it on a convenient piece of wood, it seemed to have some oil like qualities still.

So I cut the tail off my shirt (to the great amusement of my father) and after about a half dozen dips, I had an oily rag. I took it over to where he was sitting and proceeded to smear it on the barrel an action of my new gun. He was watching. Then when I looked, there was red on the rag but none on the gun. I was pretty proud of myself. Even more so when he said "give me that rag when you're done." Yes, it worked on his M12, too. (Currently my oldest son is in possession of it.) With a good coating of ancient contaminated oil, we hunted back toward the car, me considering hunting down the TV weatherman and making him a casualty of the Remington. Everyone survived. But my trust for weather guessers went to zero (where its remained for 45 years.)

The chemicals we use on our guns is more aimed at soothing our guilt than having any superior qualities over the next item on the shelf.

I do use gun specific gun products. Mostly CLP these days, because I have an ample supply. But I also have WD40, which I take with me more places than I'd like to admit. Its the best gun first aid developed. For getting caught out in a downpour, not for long term storage, etc. I'll defend it against all attackers. Its better than your wonder lube, its available at almost every convenience store, hardware, grocery, you name it. It will tunnel under the rain or swamp water to metal. Then it will defend its parts for the duration of that day, and even the next. And if you reapply it, it'll make like the energizer bunny and keep on working.

By the summer of '66 (that's 1966, not 1866 you wise guys) I'd bought a then new Browning T2. It was the prettiest gun I'd ever seen to that date, and it was all mine. Still is. The owner of the gun shop took mercy on me when I bought it, too. Maybe because it had been on his shelf far too long, I don't know... But he threw in some ammo (different brands, speeds, bullet weights.) From that I discovered the gun liked Remington gold bullet hollow points. But the styrafoam in the cardboard box had a can of Browning oil. He threw in a 2nd and said if I was careful, it would last the life of my rifle. Who knew how long I'd last..

So that little rifle has had nothing but that oil used on it. Still looks pretty good for the life it had under my stewardship. But I'd bet no one here would recommend it as being "good". It does the job.

As for using automotive products, I don't. But I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I had nothing better. I run my jeeps on Mobil 1. Yes, in the engine and in the differentials (they make Mobil 1 gear oil). My reasons for not using it is its tendency to rub off on my clothes. I don't need engine oil on my pants!

But if you want an impressive test, get a little Mobil 1 (you pick the weight). Then get an equal quantity of your high dollar wonder lube. Put them in some kind of container and put them in the freezer overnight. Yep, with the thermostat all the way down. Then the next morning get a couple of beer cans (soft drink cans would be OK but less fun to empty). Pour both in the cans (cut them in half to expedite that.) What, the wonder oil doesn't pour? Sorry, if necessary, allow it to warm to room temp. Don't worry, Mobil 1 is liquid at -30. Then for fun, put both on a hot plate (showing my age again) or the stove. And watch what happens. The Mobil 1 will get pretty darn hot, but won't boil off or steam or anything. It just sits there getting hotter. I have no idea what your wonder lube will do, but I'd bet the best you can hope for is the same performance as the Mobil 1.

The moral to all this is you can do worse than Mobil 1 for about any purpose, including keeping your engine running just fine. And there's a lot of profit built into the gun products. Not so much at Walmart automotive section (5 quart jug for maybe $25.) And back during the pre-WWII period, then didn't have either. But the guns survived. Some very nicely.

Excellent post Dick. And true.
Way back......some of you may remember Browning recommended cleaning their firearms with diesel fuel.