Why the .350 Legend?

[BB57]

The 350 Legend will go the way the 30 Super Carry, the 327mag and all of the other cartridges that have been lost to time. 50 years from now you will be able to go onto some future version of the website and see a S&W 350 Legend pistol for a ridiculous price because it is a rare collector gun that has hardly been shot.

This is one rabbit hole that I won't be going down. I am already going down the 460 Mag rabbit hole.

No it won't. 30 SC and 327 FM were launched into the CCW market where its 38 380 9mm or 45 in accordance with the gospel
350 answers a hunting regulation problem while extending the practical applications of the AR platform rifle. It's quickly gaining a reputation as an easy handling straight wall deerslayer

It’s done quite well so far as a rifle cartridge, and it’s gained acceptance as a hunting round.

On the other hand, mid caliber .35 rifle rounds have historically not done all that well.

The .351 Winchester, the .35 Remington and .348 Winchester pretty well bracketed the range of power in .35 caliber lever guns, yet the .35 Rem barely hangs on and the others only lasted about 30 years.

As noted before the .375 Win was badly introduced (rifles but no significant ammo availability for 2-3 years after the rifles showed up) and also targeted a mid bore market that historically hasn’t been a thing in the US since the .38-55.

The .35 Whelen is an exceptional round by any standard, and yet it’s never been a huge commercial success.

So..I’m skeptical about the .350 Legend’s long term prospects, especially in our modern marketing environment where newer is better.

The odds are there will be a .375 WWF or something equally stupid that will catch the public eye and the .350 Legend will be yesterday’s news and quickly become an orphaned cartridge that makes all those .350 Legend rifles reloader only propositions.

Given almost all of them are AR-15s where you can swap barrels and move on to something else, owner loyalty won’t be strong.

I hope there is a S&W forum with handguns for sale 50 years from now. That said, the 350Legend has already caught on around here for deer. Revolvers, we will see.

I’m dubious about the revolver. I have seen ballistics numbers in 12” AR pistols and they are around 1950 fps, and someone cut down a 25” barrel in 1 inch increments to 7” and velocity for the 145 gr load drops from 2380 fps to 1900 fps.

That’s a slightly bigger hit than what I saw with 220 gr bullets in my 20” BB 94 and 10” Contender - velocities falling from about 2350 fps to around 1900 fps.

In an 8” revolver it’s going to be be a 145 gr bullet at around 1800-1850 fps once the cylinder gap comes into play. That’s still just .357 Maximum performance, and I suspect it will be just as hard on forcing cones given the operating pressure.

 

[Dave Lively]

In an 8” revolver it’s going to be be a 145 gr bullet at around 1800-1850 fps once the cylinder gap comes into play. That’s still just .357 Maximum performance, and I suspect it will be just as hard on forcing cones given the operating pressure.

The 460 and 500 S&W are rated at 65,000 and 60,000 PSI. Higher than the 350 and 357 Maximum. And I haven't heard any complaints about forcing cones or flame cutting.

Part of that is probably design. Better materials and the X-frame was designed from the ground up to handle powerful and high pressure cartridges.

Part of it might be usage though. I remember the 357 max being popular with silhouette shooters that put a lot more high power ammo through their guns than someone that wants an extremely powerful gun for the range or hunting.

Even if the 350 revolver is a short lived product there are enough rifles out there to keep loaded ammo and components available long term.

I bet S&W sells more X-frame revolvers to people want them because they are the biggest handguns you can buy than they do to people that actually hunt with them or use them for bear defense. A non-reloader that has always wanted a X-frame revolver for the range but was scared off by the cost of 460 or 500 ammo might buy a 350 revolver just because the ammo is 75% less expensive.

 

[venomballistics]

I'm also combing through available load data for 350L.
The problem with most 35's is the oddball rifle bullet which is typically something like a 250 grain slugs. And that's all you got.
This one is either a 357 or a 9mm bore, much like the 38 super. As such, it's born into a very large family with no shortage of playmates.
I think it will earn its keep in agile carbines as a kinder gentler brush gun.
In a revolver... I suspect it'll be a novelty, though the contender guys and silhouette shooters might take a polish to it as well.

 

[BB57]

I'm also combing through available load data for 350L.
The problem with most 35's is the oddball rifle bullet which is typically something like a 250 grain slugs. And that's all you got.
This one is either a 357 or a 9mm bore, much like the 38 super. As such, it's born into a very large family with no shortage of playmates.
I think it will earn its keep in agile carbines as a kinder gentler brush gun.
In a revolver... I suspect it'll be a novelty, though the contender guys and silhouette shooters might take a polish to it as well.

Limited bullet selection was an issue with the .375 Win as well. Winchester made 200 and 250 gr factory loads and suitable 375”

Hornady used to make a 220 gr round nose soft point bullet for handloading butnits been discontinued.

Currently Speer makes a suitable 200 gr flat nose, and Barnes makes a 255 gr flat nose soft point, both perpetually out of stock.

Vollmer Precision has started making 200, 220 and 255 gr bullets for the .375 Win, but he’s perpetually back ordered as a one man shop.

——

There are some AR guys looking to develop a “.358 Legend” chamber reamer that will allow the use of factory .350 Legend ammo using .355” bullets, as well as handloaded .358” bullets in the same cases, presumably with a larger expander ball.

That will at least open the door to some of the heavier .357” bullets out there - up to about 158 grains for jacketed bullets and up to 200 grains for gas checked cast bullets.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If I remember correctly the 350 Legend was created for those states who only allow hunting with straight walled cartridges. It fits that bill well but I'm not sure about the 350 in a handgun.

Hey, I guess if hunters can use the 45-70, the 30-30 and the 450 Marlin in a Magnum Research BFR why not the 350 Legend? (or X frame) That type of hunting just isn't for me but I don't think it's wrong for other who want it.

Where I live there are no restrictions against normal rifle cartridges so I can shoot the 30-30 and 45-70 from a levergun or the 30-06 in my bolt action rifles for deer.

 

[IAM Rand]

No it won't. 30 SC and 327 FM were launched into the CCW market where its 38 380 9mm or 45 in accordance with the gospel
350 answers a hunting regulation problem while extending the practical applications of the AR platform rifle. It's quickly gaining a reputation as an easy handling straight wall deerslayer

Because there isn't the 30/30, 460 mag, 500 mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.......

Still don't think the 350 Legend will be a long term cartridge.

 

[venomballistics]

Because there isn't the 30/30, 460 mag, 500 mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.......

Still don't think the 350 Legend will be a long term cartridge.

5 rimmed cartridges in a mag fed world ...
Lets look at the 30-30 ...
This was state of the art and rose to the challenge along with the rifles that wore its roll stamp, The Winchester model 94.
the 30-30 was nearly always cartridge enough while the 94 was dependable and pleasant to use. This combination skyrocketed to the being Americas rifle. For generations, it won it's popularity contest, and nearly everyone had one.

Something I did not expect to happen, did.
The patent for the AR 15 ran out and it has replaced the Winchester Model 94 for the title of Americas rifle.
Will a 30-30 feed in an AR 15? ...
No .... but the 300 blackout will.
Will a 460 magnum, 45-70, or 454 feed in an AR 15?....
No .... but the 450 bushmaster and 458 SOCOM will.
Will a 38-55 feed in an AR 15? ...
no ... but a 350 Legend will.
Between .223/5.56, 6.5 Grendel, 300 Blackout, 350 Legend, 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM and 500 Beowulf, the AR 15 has evolved to address virtually every need from prairie dog popper to moose missile.
The 350 Legend is part of the continuing body of work that has made this phenomena so.
It is designed around a wildly popular bore, lending to it an extensive array of suitable projectiles, and addresses a legal requirement imposed upon those hunting in a handful of states.
Of the many cartridges that have been tried, more thought went into the 350L than any of them.
It's going to stick.

 

[BB57]

5 rimmed cartridges in a mag fed world ...
Lets look at the 30-30 ...
This was state of the art and rose to the challenge along with the rifles that wore its roll stamp, The Winchester model 94.
the 30-30 was nearly always cartridge enough while the 94 was dependable and pleasant to use. This combination skyrocketed to the being Americas rifle. For generations, it won it's popularity contest, and nearly everyone had one.

Something I did not expect to happen, did.
The patent for the AR 15 ran out and it has replaced the Winchester Model 94 for the title of Americas rifle.
Will a 30-30 feed in an AR 15? ...
No .... but the 300 blackout will.
Will a 460 magnum, 45-70, or 454 feed in an AR 15?....
No .... but the 450 bushmaster and 458 SOCOM will.
Will a 38-55 feed in an AR 15? ...
no ... but a 350 Legend will.
Between .223/5.56, 6.5 Grendel, 300 Blackout, 350 Legend, 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM and 500 Beowulf, the AR 15 has evolved to address virtually every need from prairie dog popper to moose missile.
The 350 Legend is part of the continuing body of work that has made this phenomena so.
It is designed around a wildly popular bore, lending to it an extensive array of suitable projectiles, and addresses a legal requirement imposed upon those hunting in a handful of states.
Of the many cartridges that have been tried, more thought went into the 350L than any of them.
It's going to stick.

Pre-1980 Colt only sold about 10,000 AR-15s per year and SGW /Olympic Arms was about the only other player, and they didn’t sell that many either. But after the 1994 AWB numbers exploded and it’s normal to sell upwards of 1.5 million in some election years. There are now more modern sporting rifles in the US than Model 94s and Marlin 36/336 rifles combined.

I didn’t see that coming either back in the 1980s.

From time to time I’ll respond to face book posts promoting a ban on AR-15s. I’ll point out their sporting uses and what a I’ve done with them (service rifle competition, practical rifle competition, Varmint hunting, general plinking, and home defense), and I mention their growing use as hunting rifles.

Invariably I get accused of not being a hunter if I think an AR-15 is a hunting rifle.

Some of that is probably just non gun person ignorance, but then again in the 1970s when I started hunting and into the 1980s it just wasn’t considered ethical to use a military style semi a auto for medium/big game hunting.

It wasn’t logical then as someone could use their Remington semi-auto with a scope attached and no one would bat an eye. However, if I showed up with my M1A Supermatch, with or without scope and a legal for hunting 5 round magazine it would draw some serious side eye.

In some parts of the country that prejudice hasn’t changed and AR-15s are still not seen as hunting rifles.

——

On top of that of course we have a growing PR problem. Mass shootings are still rare. School shootings rarer still, with about 6 times more kids dying in school bus accidents every year than in school shootings. But they get massive attention. Even though MSRs are only involved in 16% of mass shootings they get 100% of the blame.

And of course Americans like easy simple solutions. We as a herd conveniently ignore the reality that for every complex problem like gun violence there is a simple, easy…and wrong…solution. However we’ll jump on that rather than address the social and economic issues that really underpin violence in the US.

—-

But to be fair, there is a grain of truth in some of the anti-gun rhetoric. Like it or not, we do have a defiant sub culture within the larger gun culture, where Meal Team Six or Gravy SEAL type guys in tactical gear pose with their MSR on a social media and then make some stupid comment about being ready and willing to use their gun to defend <insert whatever here>.

99% of them are just blowing smoke and inflating their own egos. But unfortunately some young, impressionable, unsuccessful and poorly socialized youth wanting acceptance and over control over something sees an AR-15, AK or similar MSR as his ticket to both. A small percentage of those become are future mass shooters.

Even though there are are 20 million MSRs in the US and maybe 10 million owners, less than a half dozen are used in mass shootings per year. But those 5 or so individuals threaten the rights of the 9,999,995 owner that don’t engage in mass shootings.

But those facts don’t matter. We as a community need to rein in that small percentage of gun owners who make the rest of us look like ignorant, irresponsible, careless, individuals who should not be allowed to have MSRs.

——-

That’s also the wildcard for the .350 Legend. On one hand, properly promoted as a responsible, Elmer Fudd endorsed hunting rifle it can make great strides in cementing the sporting purpose of the AR-15.

But we’re still just one poorly timed mass shooting and one election away from seeing them banned. We need to start being a little more proactive in terms of both policing our own community and educating non gun owners in a positive way.

 

[venomballistics]

Legend has it the lever action repeater drew much the same shade in the muzzleloader/BPMC era.
Not sure what their equivalent to meal team six would have been.
I've always had an appreciation of the MSR, but never really considered them as practical. Certainly not at the time I took notice of it's growth.
We were just recovering from another ammo crunch and I was strategically looking for calibers no one wanted. The ones I affectionately call the wheezing geezers. 32-20, 30-30, 38-55, 45-70 and others of the ilk. Seemed easier to keep these fed in the clutch than current mainstream cartridges that were always sold out.
Didn't work out quite that way this last time, but that's a different discussion.

A conspicuous blackness descended upon the rifle rack where walnut and camo used to dominate.
The AR was taking over. Fun rifle to be sure... I could see it as a varminter and range mistress... 300 whisper was cropping up in certain circles as was some 6. Something spc...
I didn't really understand that the work had begun, and the platform was going to be embraced and developed far beyond it's strictly specified cookie cutter origins.
We're here now, and it can be had as a bolt action if one so desires. I've even heard of a pump action conversion.
Work has been done, and is still being done.
I'm quite impressed by it to be honest

 

[BB57]

Legend has it the lever action repeater drew much the same shade in the muzzleloader/BPMC era.
Not sure what their equivalent to meal team six would have been.
I've always had an appreciation of the MSR, but never really considered them as practical. Certainly not at the time I took notice of it's growth.
We were just recovering from another ammo crunch and I was strategically looking for calibers no one wanted. The ones I affectionately call the wheezing geezers. 32-20, 30-30, 38-55, 45-70 and others of the ilk. Seemed easier to keep these fed in the clutch than current mainstream cartridges that were always sold out.
Didn't work out quite that way this last time, but that's a different discussion.

A conspicuous blackness descended upon the rifle rack where walnut and camo used to dominate.
The AR was taking over. Fun rifle to be sure... I could see it as a varminter and range mistress... 300 whisper was cropping up in certain circles as was some 6. Something spc...
I didn't really understand that the work had begun, and the platform was going to be embraced and developed far beyond it's strictly specified cookie cutter origins.
We're here now, and it can be had as a bolt action if one so desires. I've even heard of a pump action conversion.
Work has been done, and is still being done.
I'm quite impressed by it to be honest

As I understand it the lever actions caught on very quickly. The Native Americans were early adopters much to Custer’s chagrin at Little Big Horn.

—-

It’s very much a multifaceted process to create a success with several things having to align at the same time.

I thought Ruger was on to something with the Mini-30 as it offered .30-30 ballistics in a similarly light, handy package - a modem Model 94 of its time.

However the missing piece was a lack of suitable ammo. Ammo manufacturers and in particular US ammo manufacturers never quite got on board with it. At the time we were awash in cheap surplus FMJ ammo selling for around $79 per crate - about the same price as an SKS at the time.

Ruger was capitalizing on the cheap ammo but also had trouble selling Mini 30s against the SKS competition.

Ammo manufacturers didn’t see much market for a hunting round that would sell for a lot more than the surplus FMJ, until 7.62x39 became an established deer hunting cartridge.

And it couldn’t become an established deer hunting round until there was sufficient availability of suitable hunting ammo.

Even today, people still ask if it’s legal to hunt deer with a 7.62x39.

Against all that, on top of prejudices against semi auto hunting rifles, the Mini-30 has never taken off as a deer rifle and that’s a shame.

 

[venomballistics]

As I understand it the lever actions caught on very quickly. The Native Americans were early adopters much to Custer’s chagrin at Little Big Horn.

They kinda had a bit of a reason to embrace the lever action.

—-

It’s very much a multifaceted process to create a success with several things having to align at the same time.

I thought Ruger was on to something with the Mini-30 as it offered .30-30 ballistics in a similarly light, handy package - a modem Model 94 of its time.

I can see how it lost out though.
The SKS was cheap enough to be expendable, meaning the steel case ammo wasn't any sort of a worry.
The ammo was sold by the pallet, with soft point being a bit rare, it was confined to the range for the most part, where the price differential was kinda hard to justify.
It was also pitted against the AR platform where a magazine and an upper assembly remain a drop in option.

However the missing piece was a lack of suitable ammo. Ammo manufacturers and in particular US ammo manufacturers never quite got on board with it. At the time we were awash in cheap surplus FMJ ammo selling for around $79 per crate - about the same price as an SKS at the time.

Ruger was capitalizing on the cheap ammo but also had trouble selling Mini 30s against the SKS competition.

Ammo manufacturers didn’t see much market for a hunting round that would sell for a lot more than the surplus FMJ, until 7.62x39 became an established deer hunting cartridge.

And it couldn’t become an established deer hunting round until there was sufficient availability of suitable hunting ammo.

Even today, people still ask if it’s legal to hunt deer with a 7.62x39.

Against all that, on top of prejudices against semi auto hunting rifles, the Mini-30 has never taken off as a deer rifle and that’s a shame.

It's not to say attempts weren't made.
WWB was still orders of magnitude more expensive than the pallets of com block fodder. The cartridge failed on its own success. also a victim of non standard bore @.312".
reloading components were a soft point and a FMJ of the same weight.
None the less you see some 7.62X39 migration into a few niche segments. It is hard to ignore but also hard to implement.
Thus, the 300 Whisper, leading to the 300 Blackout which seem to take the same role but in a very well populated bore of .308"

Meanwhile, no one batted an eye at the Remington 740, 7400 and model 8 or the Browning BAR.
Ruger could have made a more pedestrian looking rifle to join the ranks of these, but the market was already dwindling for grandpa's old rifle. The recoil operated rem 740/7400 had some popularity, though it sullied the reputation of the "hunting auto"
Some say these rifles could deliver accuracy. I've never found one. But a gas operated M1 Garand could hold dead on the heals of many bolt actions. I suspect the BAR can deliver as well.
but none of the above offer that modular Lego gun ease of customization.