Will Standard Pressure Modern Ammo Damage a .38 Special Victory?

[VictoryOwner]

Here and elsewhere I've read that it's best to use 158 grain lead ammo in these old guns because this is the ammo the guns were designed to shoot. However, I'm confused about the reasoning behind this advice.

I certainly understand that it's unwise to use +P ammo in these guns, simply because they weren't designed to handle the higher pressure of +P loads. But there's a fair amount of standard pressure ammo available nowadays that isn't the old 158 grain lead ammo, and I don't understand why shooting it would risk damaging the gun.

It does make sense to me that shooting a modern standard pressure load in an old Victory might require making some mental adjustments to aiming, because the sights are fixed for a different load. But I wouldn't think that this would be too difficult after a little practice. Most importantly, this is an issue of aiming, not of damaging the gun.

So I'm left to conclude that the only downside of shooting standard pressure modern ammo is sighting, but I don't know if this conclusion is correct. Maybe modern powders are different in ways that can damage an old Victory even at standard pressures? I don't know.

I'm leaning toward something like Hornady's Critical Defense, which at least the data on the Lucky Gunner website show works pretty darn well in .38 revolvers. I can't for the life of me understand how ammo like this would damage my gun (or blow up my hand), but maybe I'm missing something. If I am, please tell me. Thanks.

 

[Mbrgr1]

Here and elsewhere I've read that it's best to use 158 grain lead ammo in these old guns because this is the ammo the guns were designed to shoot. However, I'm confused about the reasoning behind this advice.

I certainly understand that it's unwise to use +P ammo in these guns, simply because they weren't designed to handle the higher pressure of +P loads. But there's a fair amount of standard pressure ammo available nowadays that isn't the old 158 grain lead ammo, and I don't understand why shooting it would risk damaging the gun.

It does make sense to me that shooting a modern standard pressure load in an old Victory might require making some mental adjustments to aiming, because the sights are fixed for a different load. But I wouldn't think that this would be too difficult after a little practice. Most importantly, this is an issue of aiming, not of damaging the gun.

So I'm left to conclude that the only downside of shooting standard pressure modern ammo is sighting, but I don't know if this conclusion is correct. Maybe modern powders are different in ways that can damage an old Victory even at standard pressures? I don't know.

I'm leaning toward something like Hornady's Critical Defense, which at least the data on the Lucky Gunner website show works pretty darn well in .38 revolvers. I can't for the life of me understand how ammo like this would damage my gun (or blow up my hand), but maybe I'm missing something. If I am, please tell me. Thanks.

Modern commercial loads are more tame than the originals, we joke that "+P" just means they added the (P)owder they took out back in.


There are a few threads on the reloading forum about this subject.

 

[Model19man]

The standard WWII issue ammunition was steel jacketed .38 Special load with 158-gr. bullet. It's pretty hard on rifling so the common replacement is a 158 grain Lead Round Nose bullet. Pretty much anything you buy is safe to shoot in that revolver provided it is in good condition mechanically.

More here:
De-Mystifying .38 Special Military Loads - American Handgunner

 

[DWalt]

The WWII .38 Special military ball load was used mainly, but not exclusively, by the U. S. Navy. It had a 158 grain steel jacketed bullet, and that load had more pep than standard lead bullet loads of the time, the exception being the much higher pressure .38-44 loads. I did chronograph a few rounds of it some years ago, and got a MV, as I remember, in the high 800s from a 4” barrel. Early in WWII production, S&W changed the steel alloy used for barrels to one which had greater wear resistance to the steel jacketed bullets. The USAF continued to use that same load into the 1960s. It did not work so well in the lightweight alloy revolvers used by flight crews. There is a long story about the USAF’s involvement with various types of .38 Special ammunition which is too involved to get into. I will say that much of what information you may find on the internet is absolute bull **** written by those who have apparently made it up rather than researching it. And there was never a .38 Special low pressure round made for use in those USAF alloy revolvers. Mostly, it was the 130 grain M41, and an earlier identical round without the M41 designation, which I will call the pre-M41, dating from the late 1940s. Its typical MV from a revolver is approximately 800 ft/sec. There was a much higher pressure and MV .38 Special round designated as the PGU-12/B adopted by the USAF during the Vietnam era.

To answer your question, any .38 Special ammunition available today, with the possible exception of the high pressure loads made by Underwood and Buffalo Bore, will not damage your Victory.

 

[rct269]

Here's some food for thought. It has absolutely nothing to do with ammunition aside from the fact that happens to be the topic at hand.

The Plaintiff's Bar exists to obtain remedy for their clients who have been injured, or whose property has been damaged by another person(s) or product. Each and every manufacturer of ammunition of any stature whatsoever is acutely aware of their presence. Each and every manufacturer of ammunition follows a strict risk management regimen. The last thing any of them want to see is a TV ad that ends with the request to CALL 1-800-BAD-AMMO.

Accordingly, you can rest assured NO commercial entity with the sense God gave a peanut is going to manufacture ANY ammunition which will damage ANY firearm ever made for that particular cartridge. They are nowhere near that damn dumb!! And in the somewhat unlikely event you are ever asked to acknowledge and sign a hold harmless agreement for any sort of product whatsoever, RUN---and keep on running.

And as an aside, the + part of +P stands for the increased profit margin of the folks that make it------------and that's EXACTLY why they make it.

That's the end of the food for thought. So think!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Alk8944]

^^^^^


What dwalt said! Any current manufacture .38 Special is safe and will cause no damage to any S&W M&P made since 1935 or probably earlier. I agree that I would stay away from the Buffalo Bore and Underwood +P or Outdoorsman loads, but anything else will be fine. The only reason to not use +P from any of the major companies is cost, but not safety.

 

[MajorD]

Any standard pressure ammo is fine, and as mentioned lead bullets are a bit easier on the bore than jacketed though you would likely have to shoot thousands of rounds, if not tens of thousands before it would matter.
The height of the S&W sights was designed or commonly called regulated, to hit point of aim with 158’s, so that is a big part of why most people recommend them. A lot of the current modern non plus p loads used for general range use/ paper punching is even milder in pressure than the old standard 158. Very common for some odd reason these days especially at bog box stores like cabelas is the 130 grain FMJ. This is a completely safe load to use, just bear in mind ,depending how particular you are in regards to accuracy that it may not shoot close to point of aim. I suspect most peo these days who use such a gun to occasionally ring say a 6” steel gong target at ten yards, ever notice.

 

[Mbrgr1]

" The last thing any of them want to see is a TV ad that ends with the request to CALL 1-800-BAD-AMMO."

Ralph Tremaine


Too funny! I called 1-800-BAD-AMMO


Did you know you qualify for a free medical alert device if you're over 65?


I may need it if I do get some bad ammo!

 

[DWalt]

Fixed-sight handguns do have the drawback of not always shooting to the point of aim with ammunition it was not regulated with. Different bullet weights and MVs can make a large difference in where the bullet strikes the target using the same POA. It might not make much difference what ammunition you use if your target is only ten feet away, but you might miss the target completely at 25 yards using the wrong ammunition.

 

[Pisgah]

A Victory will easily handle any standard pressure .38 load. Loads using 158 gr. bullets will usually hit closest to POA.

 

[rct269]

A Victory will easily handle any standard pressure .38 load. Loads using 158 gr. bullets will usually hit closest to POA.

All true---every word!

So, just for the sake of enlightenment, what's the standard pressure of a .38 load today---a standard .38 load? Lacking that particular information, I reckon muzzle velocity will do just fine----seems like they're close kin. Next on the list, what was it before they reduced it---whenever that was? (I only have that information from S&W catalogs----one from 1925, the other from 1932 (maybe 1935, as I'm pretty sure the 357 Magnum's included in the later one). (The enlightenment is for the folks who don't already have access to this information.)

I interpret the enlightenment to show yesteryear's loads were reduced at some point in time between then and now----don't know when or why----don't even care---it was done. Then, taking note of the significant increase in firearm sales and carry permits, the ammunition folks saw an opportunity to increase their profits via the introduction of a new product (+P)---at what I suppose was an increased price----because it was better.

Okay, better than what? It's for sure better than today's standard stuff, but the difference between today's +P and yesteryear's standard stuff is a different story. I reckon you'll see there isn't much difference at all. Now today's +P can be had in more than a few bullet weights, but I'm thinking yesteryear's fodder was probably plain vanilla----the 158 grain bullet----and the only difference between one company's product and another was the color of the box. That being the case, just tell us about the 158 grain bullet cartridge's performance.

Then do whatever you do when you think you're being scammed.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Matt_X]

But there's a fair amount of standard pressure ammo available nowadays that isn't the old 158 grain lead ammo, and I don't understand why shooting it would risk damaging the gun.

There are a variety of powders a manufacturer or reloader can choose from. If loaded properly they will all perform within the operating pressure. Their rate of burn can effect how much the barrel length and cylinder gap may change velocity. Combine that with different weight and shape bullets and point of impact can vary.

SAAMI specs the industry standard for the maximum pressures in a loading. There are several ways for a manufacturer to check the pressure, but for sake of discussion the 2022 maximum average pressure is 17,000 psi for .38 Spcl and 20,000 psi for .38 Spcl +P.
SAAMI Standards - SAAMI

As far as point of impact versus point of aim, its always a good idea to check yourself as each gun may be different. In my opinion, its best to do this after establishing a distance and target you (the operator) can produce discernable groups.


This is a well worn Victory using NRA B-8 targets.
12 shots on the first three targets. 18 on the last.

 

[BC38]

There are a variety of powders a manufacturer or reloader can choose from. If loaded properly they will all perform within the operating pressure. Their rate of burn can effect how much barrel length nad cylinder gap effects velocity. Combine that with different weight and shape bullets and point of impact can vary.

SAAMI specs the industry standard for the maximum pressures in a loading. There are several ways for a manufacturer to check the pressure, but for sake of discussion the 2022 maximum average pressure is 170,000 psi for .38 Spcl and 200,000 psi for .38 Spcl +P.
SAAMI Standards - SAAMI

As far as point of impact versus point of aim, its always a good idea to check yourself as each gun may be different. In my opinion, its best to do this after establishing a distance and target you (the operator) can produce discernable groups.

I believe you accidentally added a zero to those pressure numbers Matt_X
SAAMI standard for 38 special is 17,000 PSI (SEVENTEEN thousand PSI - not ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY thousand PSI) and 38 special +P is 20,000 (TWENTY thousand PSI - not TWO HUNDRED thousand PSI)

 

[shawn mccarver]

The original question was whether standard pressure 38 Special ammunition would harm a Victory Model.

Answer: No

 

[stansdds]

With standard pressure 38 Special ammo, that Victory Model will outlast you!

 

[Matt_X]

I believe you accidentally added a zero to those pressure numbers Matt_X
SAAMI standard for 38 special is 17,000 PSI (SEVENTEEN thousand PSI - not ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY thousand PSI) and 38 special +P is 20,000 (TWENTY thousand PSI - not TWO HUNDRED thousand PSI)

Yes. You are right!
In the pdf its the value times 100 and I typed it as 1000.
I'll see if its not too late to edit. Thank you

 

[Matt_X]

The standard WWII issue ammunition was steel jacketed .38 Special load with 158-gr. bullet. It's pretty hard on rifling so the common replacement is a 158 grain Lead Round Nose bullet. Pretty much anything you buy is safe to shoot in that revolver provided it is in good condition mechanically.

More here:
De-Mystifying .38 Special Military Loads - American Handgunner

Regarding steel jacketed bullets. This likely refers to a 'bi-metal' jacket made from a sheet of soft steel and copper joined together. Any additional supporting (or refuting) info on this would be appreciated.

In Bruce Canfield's article for American Rifleman, the photograph of the steel jacketed Remington catridges show a copper finish which apparently is thicker than a wash or plating.

Illustrated on the Milsurps forum and described in post 41 regarding .30 carbine M1 Ball cartridges.

 

[Matt_X]

Partial answer to documentation about the make up of steel jacket bullets.

A post WW2, 1961 version of TM 9 - 1305 describes .30 carbine Ball using a gilded steel jacket. That's got to be the bi-metal. Same TM describes the .38 spl 130 gr M41 cartridge using a gilding metal but the 158 gr steel jacketed .38 Spl as copper plated. Interesting.
It states the M41 cartridge is for the lightwieght M13 revolver.

maximum average pressures listed:
M41 16,000 psi; Avg muzzle vel. 950 fps
Wadcutters 14,000 psi; Avg muzzle vel. 770 fps
Others 18,000 psi; Avg muzzle vel. 870 fps

 

[BC38]

The WWII .38 Special military ball load was used mainly, but not exclusively, by the U. S. Navy. It had a 158 grain steel jacketed bullet, and that load had more pep than standard lead bullet loads of the time, the exception being the much higher pressure .38-44 loads. I did chronograph a few rounds of it some years ago, and got a MV, as I remember, in the high 800s from a 4” barrel. Early in WWII production, S&W changed the steel alloy used for barrels to one which had greater wear resistance to the steel jacketed bullets. The USAF continued to use that same load into the 1960s. It did not work so well in the lightweight alloy revolvers used by flight crews. There is a long story about the USAF’s involvement with various types of .38 Special ammunition which is too involved to get into. I will say that much of what information you may find on the internet is absolute bull **** written by those who have apparently made it up rather than researching it. And there was never a .38 Special low pressure round made for use in those USAF alloy revolvers. Mostly, it was the 130 grain M41, and an earlier identical round without the M41 designation, which I will call the pre-M41, dating from the late 1940s. Its typical MV from a revolver is approximately 800 ft/sec. There was a much higher pressure and MV .38 Special round designated as the PGU-12/B adopted by the USAF during the Vietnam era.

To answer your question, any .38 Special ammunition available today, with the possible exception of the high pressure loads made by Underwood and Buffalo Bore, will not damage your Victory.

FWIW, I shot a few of those M41 loads and they seemed pretty mild - almost whimpy.

 

[DWalt]

FWIW, I shot a few of those M41 loads and they seemed pretty mild - almost whimpy.

They are pretty much .38 Special standard velocity loads. Depending on the specific revolver and barrel length, the average M41 MV will be in the high 700s to low 800s range. And that is not a guess, I have actually chronographed M41 ammunition in different revolvers. Certainly not +P ballistics, but the military believed that it was adequate for field use.