Winchester 64

[Jessie]

I haven't seen much written about this one.
I have my Grandfathers in .32 Win. Special.
It has classic lines with its semi pistol grip lever action.
Mine is probably 95+% and I think he bought it right after WWII.
Don't have a pic right now, but will post one up later if the interest is there.
Does anyone else have one of these? What are your thoughts on it?

 

[30-30remchester]

It is nothing more than Winchesters famous model 94 with different length barrel and different stock. A great classic rifle designed by none other than John Browning. Brute tough action built from milled steel.

 

[Jessie]

I remember my Dad saying that his Dad wanted the "power house" .32 special. I guess back then it was.
Funny how times change.

 

[RobertJ.]

Never had one.

Always wanted one!

IMO, one of the finest looking lever actions ever made. And the .32 Spec. and the .30-30 have been getting the job done for a long time. Nowadays, those cartridges are for the experts.

 

[Jessie]

I don't think they're for the experts. I think they've been the everyday hunters cartridges. Maybe not the .32, but most assuredly the 30-30.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

The Winchester Model 64, like the straight gripped Model 55 it replaced, were longer barreled rifle alternatives to the Model 94 carbine. The grip is more pronounced than the original curved grip 1894 rifle, and was designed by Townsend Whelen (same grip design as the Models 71 and 65).

The 32 Special was a transitional cartridge. Back when the 30-30 was introduced, smokeless powder was problematic for reloading. Black powder would fill up all available space in a cartridge case. In fact, leaving any air gap could result in a secondary explosion effect and ring chambers. Smokeless was more powerful and loaded in lesser amounts and measurement was critical, with testing being done by the batch of powder to tailor it to factory loads.

The 32 Special was created as a smokeless powder factory cartridge which could then be reloaded with black powder. Something the 30-30 was not designed to do, as its rifling twist was too great. Increase the bore diameter for the same approximate weight of bullet and the twist rate can be reduced. This is just what was done and a 32 Special bore when fouled has less of a detrimental effect on the bullet than a 30-30 bore.

When original introduced, many 32 Special rifles and carbines had a rear sight that had a blade that was quickly adjustable between factory smokeless and black powder reloads. Once the 32 Special was no longer routinely reloaded with black powder, regular sights were used.

Is there any practical killing difference between the 30-30 and the 32 Special? Nope, dead is dead. However, when bores go bad, the 30-30 will continue to shoot fairly well, while the 32 Special won't tolerate a bad bore. I'm not sure why, but suspect the smaller diameter bullet's longer length has something to do with it.

My opinion is that, if you deer hunt, do some practice and take your grandfather's rifle deer hunting. Then pass it down as a tradition. If kept clean and not shot a lot it should last a couple more generations at least.

I wish i had my grandfather's deer rifle. Greedy relatives got their hands on it and flipped it cheap at a gunshow. I wudda paid a ransom several times that just to have it.

 

[Jessie]

This gun has probably 200 rounds through it max. I put 100 of them and am guessing on the first 100, which is probably more than Pa put through it.

 

[RobertJ.]

I don't think they're for the experts. I think they've been the everyday hunters cartridges. Maybe not the .32, but most assuredly the 30-30.

Perhaps, but maybe not so much anymore, at least around here. I certainly can't speak for the rest of the country, but lately around here I see a lot of the younger hunters with newer, hotter rounds, like the .300 WSM. When I see an older guy packing an old lever action, I figure he knows what he's doing.

 

[Jessie]

Perhaps, but maybe not so much anymore, at least around here. I certainly can't speak for the rest of the country, but lately around here I see a lot of the younger hunters with newer, hotter rounds, like the .300 WSM. When I see an older guy packing an old lever action, I figure he knows what he's doing.

I appreciate that thought, although it may be misplaced. Can't judge a book by its cover.
Remember, the smokeless 30-30 was the wonder cartridge of its time.
Either one will work. It's just matter of what gun you want to carry. Bullet design has come a long way.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

The 30-30 used to be the deer cartridge by which all others were judged.

It fell out of favor because...

More modern cartridges and rifles could shoot more accurately and flatter over longer distances. This is important because a lot of deer hunters are not shooters. So they don't practice much.

And not practicing much, their group size opens up and they shoot further than they should, leading to mortally wounded game that runs off, sometimes being lost.

Fewer hunters were handed down proper hunting techniques, which resulted in substitution of longer range rifles in place of skills.

For a medium power big game cartridge, it's recoil is out of proportion with the weight of the gun. Many husbands would get a 30-30 for their wife or kids, and in the light carbine model, especially with a solid buttplate, they didn't like it.

Because of their solid receivers requiring more work and parts than many bolt actions, costs often went beyond what lower tier and even some medium tier bolt actions cost.

And gun writers would constantly blather on about how not having the latest .300 He Man Manly Magnum, you were not only going to not get any deer, but your manhood would be called into question and you risked having your man card revoked.

 

[Aircrewman]

Have been considering getting the Browning/Winchester version which is at my local Cabels's.... They are really proud of it however..... They want c. $1,300 for it.... Still, I am considering it because I like the grip and the longer barrel.

 

[Texas Star]

The M-64 Deer Rifle was a fancier version. I'd have spent the added money, for I like guns to look the way they should.

The cynic will say that checkering, a pistol grip cap, and a sling don't make the gun shoot better, but it won't shoot worse, and it looks better.

The M-71 in .348 also had a fancier version.

 

[kevin in nh]

Model 64 Deluxe 1950 in .32

Model 71 Deluxe Short Tang 1951 .348

Model 64 Standard-2 Model 71 Short Tangs Marlin 1895 45-70

 

[2152hq]

M64 is a nice rifle,,a M94 rifle version as someone already stated since Winchester stopped selling M94 'rifles'.
I personally like the longed gentle curved pistol grip of the pre-war Winchesters,but certainly wouldn't kick a nice 64 aside if one came my way!

The 32Special is a nice cartridge, an 8mm by any measurement which if listed that way wouldn't bring any sales in the USA.

It was designed as a smokeless HV cartridge and came after the intro of the smokeless HV 30-30.
It was meant to take the place of the BP era 32-40 which was already being chambered in the M94. The 25-35WCF also was added to the 94's chamberings and was a smokeless HV offering from the beginning.

The 32-40 was a Marlin (Ballard) target cartridge. It shares the same bullet weight (165/170gr) with the 32Special and the same twist rate (1-16). With good reason, the bullet weight & dia at those velocitys stabilizes nicely in that twist range.
The 32 Remington (autoloader) is .320/321 dia, the near twin of the 32Spec ballisticaly and is 1-14" IIRC. Never intended to be a BP cartridge, it's from around 1905 or so (same as the 32Spec) and throws the same bullets around accurately.
Smokeless HV cartridges were on the market,,no looking back.

Certainly you can load 32Spec w/ BP and it'll be accurate. You can load 30-30 w/BP and it's very accurate,,try it. Plenty of Scheutzen shooters do it. 303 British was a BP cartridge originally too.
No secret science to it.
It wasn't Winchesters intent IMHO to look backwards at the start of the 20th century and the smokeless powder era to get people to start loading BP for their new HV smokless powder cartridges and designing them so.
Could they be loaded w/ BP,,certainly. Designed specificly for that duel purpose,,I doubt it.

I have a 94 TD Deluxe 1/2 oct rifle in 32Special made in 1913. It's quite a shooter. It was a good buy with it's reblued recv'r and bad re-stock. I've since restocked it(but not quite finished!).
It has the 'Smokeless Sight' on the rear which I understand was special for the 32Special. Not my favorite rear sight but special enough that it'll stay I guess,,at least for now.
A friend of mine took out his fathers old M94 rifle in 32Spec this last fall whitetail season. First time the rifle has been out in probably 60+ yrs, maybe more.
It put down a buck at 70yrds or so with one shot, no wandering off. He was impressed. I asked him what else did he expect from a 170gr thin jacketed soft point bullet @ 2100 or 2200fps.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

Historically, yes, the .32 Special was a dual purpose cartridge. Factory smokeless, blackpowder reloadable. This went away in well under a decade because smokeless reloading displaced it. There are plenty of historical references to the development of the .32 Special by Winchester historians and collectors.

This was a similar reloading situation with 12ga steel shot, which initially were factory only because of reloading issues, and once conditions leading to overpressure caused by some reloads were figured out, reloading steel shot at home became mainstream.

BTW, I should have mentioned the other factor besides blackpowder was that the slower twist of the 32 Special also worked better with cast bullets as compared to the faster twist 30-30. Many making their own bullets back in the day used lead instead of lead alloy. Today you'd use a hard cast bullet in your .30-30 and not have any issues with it.

BTW, speaking of 32-40, I have a Winchester 1885 Single Shot with a Lyman 15x Targetspot scope on it. I make my own bullets from old moulds, which are 110, 165 and 185 grainers, and reload with blackpowder. I use these for blackpowder cartridge varmint hunting, at least when the fields aren't dry because of the flammable ejecta problem.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

Kevin, nice collection. I went with Winchester and Browning 1886s in 45-70 instead of the Model 71. Nice wood on that Marlin 1895. Did you restock it?