Winchester 9mm 124 FMJ Nato Specs?

[alwslate]

Sorry LV but my chronograph says otherwise. Rem 115 gr FMJ is underloaded for sure but so is S&B and Fiocchi. Rem and S&B 115 gr FMJ will not even cycle some of my 9mms, including my old BHP made in the 70s that still has original springs. Contrary to what is often said here all foreign 9mm ammo is not hotter than US made stuff. I have some Aguila that will barely make 1,000 FPS. Pathetic junk. Plain 115 gr ammo from Federal and CCI will chronograph around 1180 FPS. I have some CCI standard 115 gr FMJ that chronos at over 1200 FPS. Even Blazer Aluminum runs around 1180 FPS. I should add the info that all of these velocities were chronographed from my 1970s BHP.

 

[Racer X]

With the exception of Remington's old 9BP load and +P marked SD ammo, all US manufactured 115gr ammo is plinking fodder, little more. Fiocchi and S&B have a lot more zip in that weight. It's not just in 9mm this problem exists. Most US produced .380 and .32 ACP ball ammo barely cycles in a European made weapon.

It is VERY obvious when you look at 10mm loadings US vs European

 

[mscampbell2734]

With the exception of Remington's old 9BP load and +P marked SD ammo, all US manufactured 115gr ammo is plinking fodder, little more. Fiocchi and S&B have a lot more zip in that weight. It's not just in 9mm this problem exists. Most US produced .380 and .32 ACP ball ammo barely cycles in a European made weapon.

There's a reason for this.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/27/cip-european-equivalent-saami/

In general, for 9mm the EU standard is about 7.5% hotter then SAMMI standard. This is why old school Euro guns, like in good condition Lugers and C96 Mausers, need hotter ammo to function.

Not exactly sure why this is. I'm read/heard it has a lot to do with the overall colder conditions in Europe, which reduces powder efficiency.

 

[scoobysnacker]

There's a reason for this.

CIP - The European Equivalent of SAAMI -The Firearm Blog

In general, for 9mm the EU standard is about 7.5% hotter then SAMMI standard. This is why old school Euro guns, like in good condition Lugers and C96 Mausers, need hotter ammo to function.

Not exactly sure why this is. I'm read/heard it has a lot to do with the overall colder conditions in Europe, which reduces powder efficiency.

I also think something that people don't take into account- the US has a very high percentage of recreational shooters, compared to any other country.

Let's take S&B ammo- made in Czech Republic.
NATO spec is FMJ, usually 124gr but can be 115gr. Intended to be used in pistols or SMG's chambered in that caliber. Intended to be used against opposing combatants.

S&B, MEN (German) etc probably crank out ALL NATO-spec, whether they stamp it or not. It just doesn't make economic sense for them not to, because they supply their native M&P, and if needs arise, they can divert more of their commercial to the M&P market without a second thought. PPU in Serbia, same thing. And if things stay quiet, rather than slow production, they push their excess to the eager US market, and make money.

I picked up some Yavex awhile back, a Turkish brand. Guarantee you that is probably +P, and probably identical to what the Turks are using with their military. It's fun to shoot, but I won't pump a lot through a bunch of my old surplus guns, because it would beat the **** out of them (unnecessarily).

US brands- there's not a single Blazer Brass being made for military or police. Unless things have changed, there's not a single Blazer Brass SD rd. I know Blazer once made a boutique SD Largo rd, discontinued... but the very existence of that brand is to give us range fodder, nothing else. It's loaded to the soft side, because it doesn't need to be anything more.

Your basic military sidearm wasn't designed to shoot 20k full-strength loads in a year. If you need that output, you better be using a rifle. It's nice if it can handle it, but it isn't mandatory.

 

[sandog]

The Winchester 124 grain NATO gets 1200 fps out of my 5 inch M&P.
It groups nicely so I stocked up on them.
Primers do seem a bit harder with these.

 

[stansdds]

There's a reason for this.

CIP - The European Equivalent of SAAMI -The Firearm Blog

In general, for 9mm the EU standard is about 7.5% hotter then SAMMI standard. This is why old school Euro guns, like in good condition Lugers and C96 Mausers, need hotter ammo to function.

Not exactly sure why this is. I'm read/heard it has a lot to do with the overall colder conditions in Europe, which reduces powder efficiency.

Do not forget that CIP pressures are measured differently from those of SAAMI.

CIP measuring is done by drilling a small hole into the cartridge case, the pressure measured is a direct measuring of the pressure generated inside the cartridge case.

SAAMI measuring is a measure of pressure against a transducer that is placed in the wall of the test barrel's chamber, so it is a measure of pressure between the cartridge case and the chamber.

 

[Reggie TisFree]

Great Stats!

I just found my records and when I chronographed various loads through my 7.75 in barreled CZ Scorpion I got the following average velocities (don't know how many rounds I checked or the distance to chrono)
Winchester 124gr NATO 1267fps
S&B 124gr fmj 1168fps
S&B 115gr fmj 1255fps
Federal 124gr HST 1149fps
Federal 124gr +P HST 1403fps

Just to add to the collectives information.

WOWSERS!!
Seems like that 124gr HST would have been much faster, yet even that speed will usher someone into eternity for sure!

 

[Racer X]

WOWSERS!!
Seems like that 124gr HST would have been much faster, yet even that speed will usher someone into eternity for sure!

I wonder what the old Illinois State police Federal 9BPLE +P+ load would do out of that long barrel!

This is why my 10mm has a 5" barrel, and my Glock 40 10mm on order has a 6" barrel. Velocity baby! If I shoot a hog, I don't want to just make it mad, I want it dead right there.

 

[stansdds]

WOWSERS!!
Seems like that 124gr HST would have been much faster, yet even that speed will usher someone into eternity for sure!

I expect Federal is using powders that will have as close to 100% combustion as possible within a 4 to 5 inch barrel as these are the most common barrel lengths found on LEO pistols. Other manufacturers may use slower burning powders which will have full combustion in barrels that are 5 to 7 inches in length. 7.5 inches was the test barrel length originally used by NATO and from which absolutely blistering velocities for the 124 grain NATO load were published.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I think the 1200 fps rating is data for a 5" barrel in most tests.

In my 5" barrel, I can get 1200 fps + loads with Red and Green Dot powder
which makes me think that getting or reaching a NATO speed with a 124 gr bullet
is not a big thing.

Some companies ammo from a 4" hits around 1188 fps, that is a standard NATO loading.

I see no reason to load or buy a 124 FMJ style box of ammo at 1200 fps
for my target work.
If you are using it for SD use................ why?

However , if it shoots better in your weapon than other ammo, great.

My little 3.5" is very happy with a 124 FMJ load at 1098 fps or less, for target work.

 

[Reggie TisFree]

BTW...per your experience.
How does this ammo stack up against the NATO 124gr of Winchester?
Sellier & Bellot 9mm Luger Ammunition SB9B 124 Grain Full Metal Jacket
382 ft lbs - Muzzle Energy & 1200 fps - Muzzle Velocity

 

[Racer X]

BTW...per your experience.
How does this ammo stack up against the NATO 124gr of Winchester?
Sellier & Bellot 9mm Luger Ammunition SB9B 124 Grain Full Metal Jacket
382 ft lbs - Muzzle Energy & 1200 fps - Muzzle Velocity

I want to do some testing on the 9D load. 124 JHP.

S&B uses a 6" 9mm barrel for testing FYI. 9 mm LUGER / 9 mm PARA / 9 x 19 – FMJ 124 GRS SB9B – Sellier & Bellot