Wobblin' Wadcutters?

[ncbengal]

I am getting excellent accuracy from Hornady 148 gr HBWC and 3.3 gr TiteGroup. However, some holes in the paper show what seems to be some bullet wobble where the otherwise sharp, round hole is slightly out of shape. The apparent wobble is no more than about 1/8" as though the trailing end of the bullet does not follow exactly. Any ideas?

 

[jbull380]

What distance are you shooting? May not be a problem unless your shooting beyond 50 yards. If your accuracy isnt an issue I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[ncbengal]

Shooting .38 spl (S&W mod 14 8-3/8") at 25 yd; going up to 50 yd for NMC shoots.

 

[CCV]

Staple your target paper to cardboard to give a good even backing. You can then determine if the oblong hole you're seeing is a bullet tipping or paper tearing.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I am getting excellent accuracy from Hornady 148 gr HBWC and 3.3 gr TiteGroup. However, some holes in the paper show what seems to be some bullet wobble where the otherwise sharp, round hole is slightly out of shape. The apparent wobble is no more than about 1/8" as though the trailing end of the bullet does not follow exactly. Any ideas?

I highlighted the reason. Change powders. The problem WILL go away. Find a flower garden somewhere, pour the rest of your Titegroup on it and you will find the best use for this powder.

It burns too hot for most applications. This would be one place where I would think it would be the worst. The thin lead skirt would probably melt off at even the lightest charges.

Buy a pound of the best light round powder out there, it has been for over 100 years too, Bullseye. Meters like a dream and your ammo will be more accurate than you will ever be.

Not being hateful and I LOVE Hodgdon powders, but, this one is just not even close to something I would use.

FWIW

 

[lmcgust]

I use 148 hbwc with TG at 50 yards for ppc competition, so do a lot of other shooters in our league and nobody has this problem. So I have to disagree with you smith crazy. The only thing I could propose is to lower your charge to about 2.8 grains of TG. Try this and the recommendation of CCV and let us know how it goes.
Br,
Guy-

 

[AllAces]

Change Powder

I agree with smith crazy, change to BE powder. I recommend changing to 158 gr LSWC and 3.0 gr Bullseye. A good 158 gr bullet is Penn's swaged, match grade, Semi-Wadcutter Bevel Base, Standard Sizing - .358 with optional sizing of .357, .359, or .360. Excellent accuracy in a 6" S&W for DR matches.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Not to offend...........

I use 148 hbwc with TG at 50 yards for ppc competition, so do a lot of other shooters in our league and nobody has this problem. So I have to disagree with you smith crazy. The only thing I could propose is to lower your charge to about 2.8 grains of TG. Try this and the recommendation of CCV and let us know how it goes.
Br,
Guy-

Guy, I am sure of your results. I have hear similar but not experienced any of them with Titegroup. I'm not a "hater" or anything like that. I have just never had ANY good results with this powder, NONE.

It is supposed to be position insensitive. Okay, who cares when it burns so hot that there is melted lead down your barrel? Or, and this is a proven fact for a BUNCH of calibers, that there wouldn't be enough @ 2.8gr to safely cover the primer when the case is stood on its head to satisfy me!

It is so dense, lot of weight in a small area, that you could easily fit 4 charges in a 38spl case and that is simply poor reloading practice. For a newbie, it could be disastrous. Sure it would be their fault but still........So, no thanks. There is nothing that this powder can do that a TON of others, with a proven track record simply cannot do better or safer.

Well, maybe one thing. I have never put a pound of Bullseye on the yard. Titegroup has. Made that part of the yard really green!

As long as no one smokes out there, the safety issue will be handled too!

 

[venomballistics]

wad cutters absolutely must be sub sonic which may be part of your frustration. the frontal area of the design yields a great deal of force upon the bullet which will make her tumble every time.
Noodle with lower charges to see if slowing it down helps, if not .. give SmithCrazys advice a read ...

 

[jbull380]

I guess the next question would be what is "excellent accuracy" if it is in fact excellent then does anything need to be fixed?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Gonna go out on a limb here but, I highly doubt that accuracy is going to be good when the bullets are hitting the target sideways.

A M14 with these loads, from an expert shooter, should be able to hold the 9 ring on the standard Bullseye target @ the long distance part of the course.

FWIW

 

[Calliope]

Sounds like you may be on the edge of instability. HBWCs are rather long for their weight, and require a few more RPMs than the plain WCs to remain stable.

S&W .38s also have a rather slow rifling twist. (1:17.5 or 16.5 IIRC)

I used to get key holing at 50 yards with factory wadcutters with a 4" S&W 67. A Python (1:14) did much better at 50 yards.

I would bump up the charge slightly if you have room in the data and see if that doesn't get them stabilized.

I switched to plain WCs and got better results.

 

[Alk8944]

Basically I would repeat what everyone else has said. Regardless of what powder you use, with the HBWC there is an excellent reason that this bullet is loaded by all ammunition manufacturers to a nominal 770 FPS. You will get that with 2.7 gr Titegroup, if you choose to use it. Bullseye and Red Dot are two powders that have an established history of accuracy in .38 Spl 148 HBWC for more years than most of you have been alive, let alone reloading. There are others that may do as well, but nothing is better!

 

[TwoPoundPull]

148gn HDY HBWC
3.4gn 231
Fed 100
Win .357 case
(group as well in .38, same recipe)
627-6"
50yd, off bag
B-3 target

Have since switched to Precision Delta ML 148 HBWC, not as messy.

 

[ncbengal]

Thanks to all you guys' input and I will proceed from here. In my haste to first post maybe I was not real clear. These rounds are hitting where you're holding, within 2" except for the occ. "flyer" which goes awry, not off the paper but definitely not where you were holding when the hammer fell. It is always this "flyer" that does not cut the perfect plug. This is not even close to "tumbling", but is rather a sharp, round hole with just a little lead smear and tearing in one spot.
Yes, targets are always on cardboard backing.
I have and still do run some 158 gr LSWC from places like Tenn. Valley Bullets sized to .358 with good results, and haven't observed any similar problem.
Okay, Smith, I used to burn some BE, and will try your advice.

 

[TSQUARED]

Titegroup provides very low velocity variation in most calibers. I used it for a whuile in 9mm but changed since it burns very hot. In 38 Special the old favorite of 2.7 to 2.8 gr. Bullseye behind the Remington 148 gr. LHBWC has seved me well for more than 50 years. I did notice a bit of bullet wobble on the targets at 50 yards from my S&W 52.

 

[BE Mike]

I have fired thousands of factory match .38 SPL 148 gr. hollow base wadcutter ammo over the years, out of revolvers and a semi-auto pistol. Bullet tipping is very common and doesn't affect accuracy out to 50 yards. I am going against the tide and say that bullet tipping with this ammo is NOT A PROBLEM.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have tried a lot of powders in the .38 Special especially with a 148gr wadcutter. Even though I've gotten good results with many Titegroup is not among them and I always seem to come back to W231.

A charge of between 3.2gr and 3.5gr w231 under a 148gr WC has never failed to deliver outstanding accuracy in any revolver I've used them in.

IMO if you can't find a VERY accurate wadcutter load using either Bullseye or W231 there's something wrong with the revolver, the shooter or both.

 

[boatbum101]

+ 1 for W 231 . I use 3.1 - 3.2 depending on powder lot . 2.7-2.9 BE has been around for a long time , but some guns prefer another powder . 2.5 - 2.7 WST , 2.9 - 3.0 AA#2 or VVN320 , or 3.6 VVN340 are also good loads if your gun likes them . All the above will group @ 50yds out of a good barrel . S&W uses a slower twist than Colt & most PPC guns are built on 1 in 14 to 1 in 10 twist for use with 148 HBWC .

 

[Steve in Vermont]

IMO if you can't find a VERY accurate wadcutter load using either Bullseye or W231 there's something wrong with the revolver, the shooter or both.

Agreed. I've found the old standby of 2.7 g of BE or 3.0 g of W231 works very well for 148 g HBWC (I use Hornady). I also like 148 g DEWC with 3.0 g of BE or 3.2/3 of 231. In my last 2 trips to the range I've fired hundreds of both and they punched perfect holes. And the recommendation to use cardboard as a target material is right on. It will cleanly show any key holing.