woman's first handgun purchase for self-defense (not a total gun newbie)?

[Chuck1217]

I'm gonna disagree with some of the wisdom here, in that I think if you like 38/357 snubbies, that's what you should get AND practice with. I understand the idea of practicing with a 22, but it sounds like you and I are similar in- shall we say- cost control. I think having the snub-nosed 38/357 and practicing with it as much as possible would do you more good than practicing with another piece and having to buy different ammo. Not sure if anyone else said it, but by gettiing a 357 which also shoots 38s, you can get really comfortable shooting the 38s, and carry 357 for extra power- but practice SOME with the 357s so the initial shot, pray to the Lord is never necessary, won't be too- stunning- and prevent a quick follow-up shot.
Do a lot of reading on how a woman can carry, too, I note the problem of having it in a purse when that's the first thing a robber will go for, BUT at the sam time if it's most practical for you that's fine as well. Guess you've seen the concealed-carry purses thay have these days. Anyway, enjoy the process, learn what you can, it sounds like you have a great headstart already, and best wishes.

 

[everReady Rob]

Welcome to this place. You can find answers to about anything worth knowing.

I have a 642 38 Spl +P 1&7/8" barrel. It is light, can be concealed just about anywhere and enough power (especially +P loads) to knock down the bad guys. The only draw back to this particular gun and snub nose in general is they are not that easy to shoot, or better said, you should use this gun at close range. Practice, practice and practice. I think it is a terrific gun.

 

[off road]

While I know the 442 and 642 are on the same frame and differ by color, the 642 I held yesterday was a 2.5" barrel, and the 442 was a 1 7/8". So they are not all the same.

Got to say that I have never seen a 642 with anything but a 1.875" barrel, and don't see any other options on S&W's web site: Small Frame (J) - Smith & Wesson

The J-frames come in 4 different flavors, and there are slight barrel length variations in some models:

1) All steel (frame, cylinder, and barrel), for example the 60/640 and they weigh in at around 22+ ounces. These shoot the easiest because of the weight, but are to heavy for pocket carry IMO....but lighter and more compact than say an SP101.

2) Aluminum frame, steel cylinder and barrel, like the 442/642. At around 15 oz, these are still heavy enough to help tame recoil, but light enough for pocket carry. These give you the most bang for your buck!

3) Scandium/aluminum alloy frame, steel cylinder, and shrouded steel barrel, like the M&P340/360. In the 13 oz range, they pocket carry nicely, yet still shoot well enough. They are expensive!

4) Scandium/aluminum alloy frame, titanium cylinder, and shrouded steel barrel, like the 340PD (My all time favorite is the 342, which I wish they would bring back!). At only 11 oz, these ultralights can be a challenge to shoot....but they carry oh so nicely! Ultra expensive!

 

[off road]

Just to play devil's advocate, have you looked at the Ruger LCR? I like everything about it except that it is a little to large to pocket carry well, because of its excellent but bulky recoil absorbing Hogue Tamer grips, and unusually bulbous trigger guard. Two models in the 13 and 17.5 oz ranges. http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/models.html

Women don't tend to pocket carry anyway, so probably not an issue for you. I gave my daughter two of them for her self defense guns....at least for now until she wants to move up to the Glocks....

 

[scooter123]

Dawgmom, I've a 50 year old, 175 lbs. male, who has spent his life working with his hands. As a result, I have some wrist damage and am now sensitive to recoil.

The 442/642 you mention as primary choices, IMO you should reconsider those choices. Three years back I rented a 442 when I was shopping around for a carry choice. Just 30 rounds of 38 spl. in that resulted in my doing everything left handed for a full week. I would urge you to do the same thing I did, try renting any gun you are considering purchasing BEFORE you buy the gun. It is the only way you'll be able to determine if the gun you are considering will do injury to your wrist or has a recoil profile you can tolerate.

 

[SSW1911]

Hello and welcome!!! I am new here to,

I read you post and a few responses, you are getting a ton of ideas which is great.

I know you want a revolver and that is a great choice. But just to throw another idea in the ring, what about the M&P9c??

Great carry, good weight ratio, very reliable, more round capacity (que rounds vs rounds on target, I give on that...). You can get them with/without a thumb safety.

I have one, love it. Carries real well. Sorry if this was already covered or discussed. I just popped on for a few minutes to surf and did not have time to read the whole thread.

In any case enjoy, your new firearm and I am glad you will have one if needed, but hope you never do.

Take care!!!!!

 

[Pete99004]

As I read your original post, I think that both of your mentioned choices would work well, but it would be a matter of comfort level for you as to which one you choose to go with. It would be nice for you to shoot both models if you have a range within a reasonable distance that provides rental guns. As another option, I would look into a S&W mdl. 60 - heaver gun but the weight might provide more control for you. There again, range time would be the best way to answer which model works best for you and as you pointed out - probably would be in close quarters should you ever need to use it to defend yourself, so long distance accuracy won't be a consideration.

My wife just did this exercise herself and liked the 642 better. When I went down to the LGS to purchase it, I found the DAO trigger pull and the larger grip on the Ruger LCR (.357 mag. version) to be comfortable for me. As my wife and I "feel" the guns in our hands about the same, I purchased it instead of the 642. She has since handled and fired the gun (50 rounds) and is very comfortable with the level of recoil with the .38 Special and +P ammo and the weight (17.6 oz. which is slightly heaver than the S&W) of the handgun. She also liked the fit of the larger grips and they also aid with recoil. She didn't care for the recoil with .357 Mag. loads - so it will be loaded with .38 Special +P wadcutter loads for her. Since you mentioned you have had training with a short barrel and would prefer a larger grip, you may want to look at this model as well. The LCR is in the same class as the Smith J frames. Ruger does build fine weapons as well and has a good reputation. I know we are very pleased with the purchase and found the pricing to be a bit more attractive than we found on the Smith's.

Hope this helps, welcome to the forum, and let us know what you decide to buy.

Pete

 

[sirrduke2010]

Range of a small revolver, +P loads, Shooting Someone, Mindset, and the Aftermath.

If you look at the different ranges that people are in when they communicate with each other you see the distance that people are at when they are close, when they are friends, when they are business relationships. How a far away before you use your weapon. I need probably 6 feet or greater but I much prefer 15 feet.

The things that people forget the closer the person is the greater the amount of area he provides as a target. Photographers know this rule very well. The closer they are to the subject the less area they can get in the frame. In other words if you are photographing a person the closer you get the more of the frame the person would take up.

If you think a J frame is too small to be accurate with take a target with a silhouette on it and put it at 5 feet, then 10 feet, then 15 feet, and then 20 feet. You will see the closer the target is the easier it is to hit even with a J frame. I saw someone talking about 25 yards which is 75 feet. 20 feet is a little less than 4X the distance or it is about 1/4 the distance. A 4" gun is going to be accurate and have less kick but at close distances a 1 1/2" revolver should do fine. I wouldn't use a +P load because the small gun with have a larger kick, which can affect your accuracy, and the ability to fire off another round. Also the +P make a small revolver harder to hold. Small guns don't tolerate the +P loads very well for extended periods.

There are some companies known to make self defense loads and the ones I have tried aren't +P and I have seen they are more accurate with less kick.

All this being said do yourself a favor and take a self defense class. The strongest method of self defense isn't a weapon but it is being aware of your surroundings, avoiding isolated areas, and don't be in areas considered unsafe. As I have said before if you are jumped being unaware of your surroundings having a weapon isn't going to do you much good if you can't use it to defend yourself. A gun for a woman is a good equalizer. Here is the thing to remember if you ever have to use it for self defense and that is: it is him or you and there is no second place. The person that walks away alive wins. Your intent if you have to defend your life is you've got to do what is necessary, if your life or somebody else's life is threatened, and you do this until the person is no longer a threat and then go no further. Remember it is him or you.

In the end you are much better avoiding an attacker than having to fire upon one. If you ever shoot someone there is a huge bunch of red tape attached to it. Usually they will need your statement, they may take your gun, you will be interviewed by police, then you will be investigated by the police for a certain period of time, if they find it isn't self defense you could be tried for assault or murder, and if you are tried and acquitted the victim him or her could sue you and if they die then the relatives can sue you. The evidence they need to prove excessive force is easier to prove than murder. I haven't talked about having witnesses, talking to the police, securing evidence to prove your story, remember what happens so you can recount your story, needing counseling for post traumatic stress, psychologically you could have memories of the event reoccur, anybody being shot on TV can be traumatic, and you can question yourself whether you did the right thing.

Shooting a person is a huge thing. It also involves a legal issue of what you can and can't do and whether the shooting is justified so it can be called self defense. It is always better to avoid the situation if you can at all possible but if you are in danger of being injured and/or killed or someone you know or a relative than you have to take action. I see people talk about have a CCW as protection but in the end if you can possibly avoid using it you are better off. Walking away is so much easier. To get a inkling of what post traumatic stress can do it is a good idea to look it up. You probably will be a changed person after you shoot someone. Remember this isn't TV.

 

[BobR1]

Looking everything over.
No mention of how you plan to carry. Holster, Purse, Pocket, etc.
No mention of your job or job status, retired, etc. Do you need to carry at work? Any problem with co-workers knowing that you carry? Can you take a holster on and off at work with no problem?
How do you normally dress. Pants, Skirts, Jackets, etc?
In what part of the country do you live? Big difference between South Texas, and Oregon.
Do you have a Concealed Weapon Permit?

Looks like the hubby has enough toys for you to practice with something with less bite than an airweight. Looks like you have access to a 22 revolver to practice with. A good thing.

Since the J Frame and its good and bad points have been discussed above, I will mention another couple options not covered above.

I have no idea what you are willing to spend on your personal defense handgun. If you could afford to throw a few more bucks at one, I am sure you would be totally happy with a Smith & Wesson 315 Night Guard. That is a 2-3/4" Air Weight K Frame rated for 38 Special +P, with a 24/7 Tritium Front Sight (Night Sight), and a Cylinder & Slide Extreme Duty rear sight. It has been out of production for a year or two, but one can still be found on Gunbroker. A little pricey, but the Cadallac of concealed carry 38 K Frames.

Another option is a Smith & Wesson Model 12 in a 2" snub. Another K Frame Airweight. The only draw back is it is not rated for +P 38's. You would need to pick your ammo carefully for the best performance. I would look for a newer model gun, that is clean as a pin. Again check Gunbroker for one.

Both of the above revolvers will get you into a little more shootable package than a J Frame while keeping the weight to a minimum.

With answers to the above questions about where you live, etc. , you can probably get even better advice on what should work.

Bob

 

[MaximumLawman]

I'd say any J-Frame is fine. I prefer steel with fixed sights. I wouldn't overthink the sight issue as you're likely to not be relying much on the sights in a gunfight. forget the fancy lasers and high visibility sights. I'd get a J-Frame with a non-exposed hammer either the Bodyguard or Centennial type. Whatever you get, don't carry it in your purse.

 

[russp1]

The wife and I both carry J frames with 1-7/8 barrels (she a 642, me a 442). We originally were practicing with a two handed grip and focusing on the sites but after some reading and talking with instructors, this is not very realistic for self defense situations. Now we're practincing with the J frames using what is basically point shooting (not using the sites, single handed death grip). For a self defense situation at close range, this seems to make a lot more sense and works very well.

 

[Chuck1217]

I've been through about 400 rounds in the last 3 weeks working on that same thing. I got to a point where head-shots at 5-20 yeards weren't much of a challenge and started thinking- why? I shoot at an indoor range so can't draw and shoot, and can't double- or triple-tap- but I've been turning sideays, shooting across my stomach from about stomach level- and faacing front, holding the pistol at my side, bringing it up and firing without the sights. Today I hit the target all 100 times- missed the silhouette 4 times, rest were SOMEwhere on the body. I also think point shooting like that is much more practical at this point.

 

[photoman]

Snub Training – Snubs and Women

 

[sirrduke2010]

It is really hard to aim with precision like you do on the range and shoot at a threatening target. You don't have the time. Time is of the essence and getting a shot off toward the attacker is essential. This also depends on the distance the attacker is from you and whether he has a weapon like a knife. After researching a little further I have seen some additional evidence that taking shelter behind a barrier if you are able to is a good idea. First it shelters you from return fire and helps to prevent your assault by the attacker if the first shot doesn't bring him down. I wanted to add this is another reason +P loads aren't a great idea with a 2" J frame because recovery time from a larger kick will reduce the amount of shots you can get off before the attacker reaches you.

 

[russp1]

I started with the +P loads but found I was much better with my follow up shots by going with standard pressure. I settled on Hornaday Critical Defense 110 gr FTX in my snubs and the 115gr in my 9mm Sigma.

 

[GeorgeP]

It sounds like your mind is pretty made up to get a revolver. That's okay. The choices between revolvers and autos gets down to personal tastes with few exceptions. I think the number one consideration in any gun is the feel in your hand. Next (for self-defense) is simplicity of operation. I owned a S&W J and after several months of really trying to get comfortable with it, both physically and mentally, I gave up and switched to an auto. Before you "completely" make up your mind I'd like to recommend you hold, and shoot if you can, a Bodyguard 380. Before you scoff, the 380 has proven to have plenty of stopping power, about equal to 38 special. The little pistol is thin, easy to carry, has very "comfortable" recoil, ultra safe (almost too much), great sights, VERY accurate, and above all, simple no-brainer operation. The think the going price now is around $350. It does have a problem with the laser buttons but easy to fix. OBTW, some dealers still carry the Bodyguard package, a Bodyguard 38 and Bodyguard 380.

 

[Jitterbug]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I'll add my two cents anyway.

I purchased a 442 for my wife as a first gun, she grew up on a ranch and is not a girly girl. She insisted (and stupid me because I let her) on firing 50 rounds of factory 130 grain "target" ammo first time out. This wasn't her first shooting session, for months we'd worked with a .22 then on up to 9mm, .45acp and even a few mags of light 10mm.

She then got her CCW permit and went with the 442 for concealability.

After the 442 session, she had pain in her forearm for the next 18 months, apparently a torn tendon in her forearm and she never really adapted to the 442.

Since then she picked up a S&W 9c and a Kahr PM9, she now shoots both of these pistols very well (it has taken awhile after working back up with the .22) and the Kahr PM9 is an EDC. The larger 9c is mostly for range work (and her woods gun) and she now finds it very comfortable to shoot for long sessions.

All three of these guns have CT lasers, wonderful tools in the sense that one does not need to align the sights, but look at the target only. At first I thought of them as a gimmick, but I'm now a firm believer.

It goes without saying to learn to use irons and their fundamentals first, but the laser is a wonderful tool, we have 4 of them now and will have more as funds become available. It's especially useful on the 442.

My main EDC is a Kahr PM9 too and has been for over 7 years, we don't want to part with the 442 and I carry it from time to time. If nothing else it's a spare CCW. I doubt if she'll ever want to shoot it again even with the mildest loads I can work up for it. I shoot it well but it took quite a bit of work going from the mildest reloads on up to the 135 grain Speer Gold Dot and it wasn't my first J frame, I used them both steel and aluminum many years ago when I was younger as EDC at the time the J frame was the best pocket pistol available.

I also shoot a 4" 629 .44 Magnum with heavy hard cast loads and honestly I don't know which is worse in the recoil department with warm loads it or the 442, neither are pleasant to shoot for extended periods of time. The wife does enjoy the the .44 Mag, but with very light hand loads.

A note on the Kahrs, they do require some break in and tweaking prior to being reliable CCW pistols and are prone to failures in the first 250 or so rounds, but very easy to carry, conceal and very accurate with manageable recoil. Both are now very reliable.

I don't want to ruffle any feathers on a S&W forum, even though I've been a S&W revolver owner/fan since the 1970's, today I mostly CCW various 1911's and/or the Kahr PM9, unless I'm in the woods in the Central or Northern Rockies were the 629 is my primary.

As someone previously posted the lightweight J frames unless loaded very light are for experts only and as I'm getting older, I might add for the young and the strong.

 

[russp1]

In deciding to purchase a 442 for carry (642 for the wife); we realized they would not be fun or practical guns for firing 50 or 100 rounds at a time at the range. These are guns that you can easily conceal and carry all the time and if needed, you'll be firing only a few rounds with the adrenaline flowing. We make it a point to fire off at least 10 each time we're at the range to stay comfortable with the gun and our ability to hit a silhouette with them.

 

[wnr700]

It takes a religious conversion to master a J frame.

If you go that route, a model 649, 640, or 60 is a comfortable bridge between the larger K frame and the Airweights. They absorb a great deal of recoil and are really comfortable to shoot at the range.

I reccomend adding a J frame .22 for cheap practice and a K frame for larger caliber practice.

It took a few thousand rounds of .22 to get decently proficient with a J frame.

I now carry a Glock 26, but my 649 and 442 were easily concealable. In real world everyday use, the difference in weight between steel and scandium was negligible but welcome at the range.