Working up 38 Special +P or +P+ loads.

[Mark in GA]

I'm planning on working up some defense loads in 38 Special soon and was curious if anyone had any favorites? They will be used in a 4" 686+ Mountain Gun and a 1 7/8" 640 38(no dash) Centennial.

I will be working with the components I have on hand which are 125 and 140 XTP's as well as my hand cast Lyman 358665 (165 gr. RNFP with a pretty wide meplat). On the cast I may hollow point them with a tool I have. For powder I have my old standbys HP38 and HS-6. I figure HS-6 will likely be the best choice in this application.

I want to arrive at one load for both revolvers if possible. And, even though the 686 is a 357 I don't want to go to full mag levels because my wife uses these. She doesn't care for the full mag loads, but does OK with loads in the 1000-1050 range (with 158 cast).

Thoughts,
Mark in GA

 

[OKFC05]

I'd forget the .38 cases (don't want overly hot .38s lying around to get into the wrong gun) and load the .357 cases to whatever level you want, using the Hodgdon loading tables and/or Lyman manual. Piece of cake.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

 

[venomballistics]

I second this.
Not only is it safer in the long run when that pile of ammo starts looking all the same, it keeps that annoying "special magnum" ring from forming in the chambers which can cause trouble when chambering a full magnum later in life

 

[moxie]

I'd make sure to use a chrono in working up hot loads. There isn't really any other way to ascertain MV out of YOUR guns.

 

[Mark in GA]

Roger that on the chrono. I always use one. Have for about 16 years. Now on the 38 cases. If you check my original post, the 640 referenced is only chambered in 38 Special. The mag brass won't work. I use magnum brass for my full power loads. All of my light loads use 38 brass and cast bullets.

Thanks,
Mark in GA

 

[bmcgilvray]

I just worked up a few high-performance .38 Special handloads and posted them on the tail-end of a thread started last year.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/144598-some-38-special-chronograph-tests-5.html

"I'm planning on working up..."

That's a great thought to keep in mind when going for performance handloading. Work up the loads yourself, in your revolvers and take absolutely every heavy handload found, whether in a manual or especially on the internet, with a grain of salt until you've properly satisfied yourself it is appropriate for your guns.

 

[Rule3]

As a die hard HP 38 user you will get more bang with the HS6

Hornady #8 lists for HS 6 and the 125 XTP in 38 Special

6.6, 7.0, 7.3, 7.7 (+P) and max 8.1 (+P)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For the 140 XTP and HS6

6.1, 6.4, 6.8, 7.1 (+P), max 7.4(+P)

Use at your own risk and for our editors all powder numbers are Grains

 

[OKFC05]

Now on the 38 cases. If you check my original post, the 640 referenced is only chambered in 38 Special.

If you are going to use .38 cases, I'd scratch the +P+ ( or stay very close to +P SAAMI) in a .38 because the pressure goes up faster than the MV. With multiple users, Murphy says it is going to wind up in the wrong gun. If you want to work out the 686 with higher vel, using .357 cases is just basic safety.
The most common problems I have had with mentoring reloaders is not that they can't learn the press, it's that they start taking shortcuts---("I thought it would be OK", as they show me the damaged gun).
It's not just "your gun, your fingers", it's hers too.

 

[Rule3]

In addition, what is the sense (if there is any) of a +P+ out of a 1-7/8" barrel??

What is gained at a SD distance other than a big bang, and flash?

 

[Mark in GA]

I'm actually a pretty experienced reloader. I have loaded for about a dozen different rifle cartridges, 9-10 different pistol and revolver cartridges, plus 20 and 12 gauge shotgun over the last 18 years. I have experimented with nearly all of the Hodgdon and Alliant powders plus a few IMR and Accurate over the years. I'm very carefull and meticulus in my loading habits.

I experiment, but not into dangerous territory. I work up slowly and stop when anything looks, sounds, or feels not right.

With this exercise I intend to work up slowly in an attempt to safely drive the 125 XTP's around 1100 out of the 4" 686. That should be easy to accomplish with HS-6. Probably not so much with HP-38. Loads at that level should be safe for many thousands of rounds (not that I will be shooting that many) and should yield 950+ out of the snub 640.

With the 165 cast I will probably work towards 1000 in the 4" 686 using HS-6. Again in the snub 640 that will probably run 850-900 tops. If these prove to be too much/hot, I will back off or look at other combinations.

Thanks,
Mark in GA

 

[Rule3]

The Hornady data I gave you for the 125 XTP, only the 8.1 gr of HS6reached 1000 fps out of their test gun a 4" M 15.

All I was referring too was you can't change physics It's pretty hard to get over 1000 fps out of short barrel without bad things happening and it serves no real advantage that I know of.

 

[Mark in GA]

Some of my numbers guessing is based upon actual loads I worked up with the Speer 135 GDHP in my guns. Top loads with it were between 980 and 1030. Based on that I figure the lighter 125 should pick up some speed. Also, I would want to get at or above 1000 with the XTP to help ensure expansion. In my experience they are tougher bullets than the Speer low velocity GDHP.

I will be working with XTP's now because I can't find any Speer 135's.

Thanks,
Mark in GA

 

[Rule3]

I will be working with XTP's now because I can't find any Speer 135's.

Thanks,
Mark in GA

You got that right!. I gave up trying to find any. The XTP's are available and usually less than the Gold Dots I found some 125's a while ago but that was it.

The HS 6 should work well for you, If ArchAngleCD sees this thread he might have more info. He pours HS 6 on his morning cereal.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I have used older data to achieve what you are attempting with the heavier bullets. I am not a fan of light for caliber bullets. You may find out that at 10 yards, your fixed sight gun shoots so low it would be dangerous to use as a defensive load. Depending on the scenario.

I like a 158gr+ LSWC @ 1100fp from a 3" gun for those 38spl +P+ loads. There was a long, long thread about the "sense" of doing it, we had folks from all over commenting on that!

You would be better served with a heavier bullet doing a modest 900-950fps from that 4" gun. You and it will last longer.

If you want to see some current data for some "hum dinger" loads that are inside of the pressure limits of the 38spl, check out Vita Vhouri (sp) powders. They have a load that uses N350 with a 160gr RNFP that develops almost 1100fps from a 6 1/2" barrel.

With most powders, 30-50fps per inch of barrel can be added or subtracted to get you in the ballpark of what you can expect from your barrel length.

Hope this helps.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have done a lot of work on replicating the FBI Load (158gr LSWC/HP +P) and replicating the Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +P load among others.

If you're looking for a good round to use in your 4" M686 I suggest using the FBI Load. My replica uses more HS-6 that is currently published in any manual so using my load is at your own risk. BUT, it's been speculated my load will develop pressures just under the 20,000 PSI limits at 19,800 PSI. IMO it's one heck of a good load. It's clean and accurate in my revolvers.

Here are my numbers:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Hope this helps and be careful when working up to the 7.0gr MAX.

 

[Mark in GA]

Here are some results from my 38 Special testing over the weekend. The top loads here are +P or slightly more so work up slowly at your own risk. These have proven to be safe in my guns.

HDY 125 XTP - CCI 500 - Fired in 4" 686-5 MG
HP-38 4.5 grs. AVG 825
HP-38 5.0 grs. AVG 901
HP-38 5.5 grs. AVG 999

HDY 125 XTP - CCI 550 - Fired in 4" 686-5 MG
HS-6 7.0 grs. AVG 943
HS-6 7.5 grs. AVG 1030
HS-6 8.0 grs. AVG 1119

I also fired the top load of HS-6 in my wife's 1 7/8" 640. In that short tube it averaged 980 fps. That seems to be pretty impressive to me for such a short barrel.

Mark in GA

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I also fired the top load of HS-6 in my wife's 1 7/8" 640. In that short tube it averaged 980 fps. That seems to be pretty impressive to me for such a short barrel.

Mark in GA

That's because HS-6 is an impressive powder like I've been preaching for a long time...

IMO trying to push an XTP bullet fast enough to reliably expand is harder than using a bullet that will expand at lower velocities than the XTP. The Hornady XTP bullet is more in line with a hunting bullet than a SD bullet IMO. I'm guessing Hornady tends to agree since they now produce their "Critical Defense" ammo with a bullet that does expand at lower velocities than the XTP bullet require.

I know the XTP bullet is easy to find and priced right but IMO using a Speer 125gr GD bullet (since the 135gr SB bullet is all but impossible to find) would be a better choice. OR, the Nosler 158gr JHP bullet will reliable expand at as little as 800 fps. I'm sure there are more and I'll leave you to that task but don't pick a bullet and try to make it work instead of picking a bullet that can work and work better.

 

[Mark in GA]

Have you gotten the 125 GDHP to expand much. I used to use it for full house 357 loads, but it seemed to me to be just as tough at the 125 XTP. None upset as easily as the 135 Speer GD.

Thanks,
Mark in GA

 

[Dragon88]

Where powder manufacturers list +P data, it is often only a few tenths of a grain difference between the max +P and the max standard pressure charge. You should be able to work up to the max standard pressure charge no problem with your desired powder, then increase a tenth at a time until you reach a performance and pressure level you are comfortable with. Your 686 will handle this no problem, so the limiting factor for a common load will be your 640. Make sure your scale is correctly calibrated, and I would individually weight charges as opposed to using a thrower. Be safe and good luck!

 

[Steve C]

I load Speer 158gr LSWCHP's on top of 4.7grs of W231 lit by a WSP primer for a +P load that duplicates the factory ballistics of their 158gr LSWCHP's at 890-910 fps chrono'd from 3 different pistols with a 4" barrel.

5.2grs of Unique does the exact same velocity.