WW-II Remington carbine - any ideas?

[Double-O-Dave]

Good afternoon:

I just finished reading an excellent book on the D-Day invasion: "Soldier, Sailor, Frogman, Spy, Airman, Gangster, Kill or Die" by Giles Milton. Excellent book, but the author is a Brit and not very gun savvy. He relates a story about a sailor who had been trained as a frogman and had the task of clearing some of the mines/explosives/booby-traps planted by the Germans in advance of the landings by the allied troops. As he is crawling along the beach, he spots a German who is trying to bring his machine gun to bear on him, but the frogman was carrying a "Remington carbine" which he used to shoot and kill the German before he could get off a shot.

I confess, I have no idea what arm the "Remington carbine" could possibly be. A Remington Model 1903 is a full-sized battle rifle, but I suppose it could be cut down to carbine configuration. I thought maybe it was an M-1 carbine, but I don't think Remington was involved in the manufacture of the M-1 carbine. Any thoughts or ideas? This is bugging me!

Regards,

Dave

 

[elpac3]

I believe in WW2 the standard issue weapon for the "frogman" was a Kbar knife. Swimmers of the day did not typically carry a battle rifle or carbine.

 

[Texas Star]

I think he meant the Winchester M-1 carbine. Ian Fleming made the same mistake in a James Bond book.

Post no. 2 is by a man who didn't read the OP carefully. (That happens a LOT here!) The frogman was BRITISH and unlikely to wear a Ka-Bar knife. Probably a Fairbairn-Sykes dagger, and whatever other weapons were issued for a particular mission.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Post no. 2 is by a man who didn't read the OP carefully. (That happens a LOT here!)

I'll repeat that, it happens a whole lot around here!!!

Ivan

 

[walnutred]

The OP said the author was a Brit. I'm not seeing anything on the nationality of the frogman. I can see a US Navy person being issued a Remington made 03 in WW2 and to some the Springfield might seem to be a "carbine". The 03 is shorter than the 91/30, T38 or GEW.

 

[kaaskop49]

Sorry, the entire incident sounds made-up to me.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[old tanker]

Here is an odd one.

A Remington Model 14-1/2, serial 20043, caliber .44-40 (aka .44 WCF) Based on the flush "REM-UMC" ammo indicator, the receiver not being tapped for a tang sight, and the last patent date on the barrel "Nov.19.12" I'd peg this rifle around 1913 production.

The DCP Canadian proof indicates it was part of an order for 4,000 in 44-40 for use during the First World War. These rifles were scattered all over the Empire, and at least one (serial 34292) is still in the Imperial War Museum.

From the Imperial War Museum site, there was this tidbit:

"At the outbreak of the First World War, few military aircraft were armed. As a result a variety of weapons were issued to airmen during the early part of the war. This American Remington pump-action rifle was one of 4000 purchased by the British Admiralty to address a shortage of service rifles, many of which had been transferred to the Army. The original intention was to equip various small naval craft, but a number of these rifles were passed to the Royal Naval Air Service as aircraft armament."

Aircraft armament?? Kinda makes you wonder if someone at the Admiralty had been into the grog? On the other hand, how long did the Royal Navy keep them around? Who got their hands on them and how?

This particular rifle has no British "sold out of service marks" and there is no "Not of British Make" mark or British commercial proofs. How did it escape Empire?

 

[Valmet]

Maybe somehow he got his hands on a semi-auto Model 8 or 81?

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Hold on a second- Double Down Dave didn't relate which Navy that frogman belonged to.
Whose Navy Dave?

 

[Drm50]

I would say it's a work of fiction.

 

[scooter123]

I would say it's a work of fiction.

I agree with this 100%. Because I don't see any SCUBA diver ever carrying a firearm during WWII, it would totally hose the divers buoyancy balance and be a lot of extra drag to haul around in the water.

 

[flagman1776]

"Frogman" is not definitive. The instructor who I taught with was Navy and the original divers were officially called UDT OR Underwater Demolition Team. Original WW2 era film was still available for loan. The training shows high speed pickup to a rubber boat towed along side a landing craft. They were unofficially called frogman. I doubt they were armed with more than a knife since the intention was to scout undetected and wire beach obstructions for demolition without being observed.

 

[murphydog]

The US Navy UDT (Underwater Demolition Team) members were trained to do exactly what the author in the OP described, often under fire but not to my understanding usually carrying a firearm of any kind. They were the direct ancestors of the SEALs, a brave and tough bunch.

 

[Faulkner]

The OP said the author was a Brit. I'm not seeing anything on the nationality of the frogman. I can see a US Navy person being issued a Remington made 03 in WW2 and to some the Springfield might seem to be a "carbine". The 03 is shorter than the 91/30, T38 or GEW.

In June 1944 I doubt anyone would have referred to a M1903 as a "carbine". They had been around for 40 years by then and were well known as the Springfield rifle.

 

[LVSteve]

According to Wikipedia, about 4000 1903s were cut down in length to make them easier to handle in Panama. American Rifleman had an article about them some time ago. There are very few survivors as most were allegedly dumped as a non-standard arm.

American Rifleman | Cut-Down Springfield: The Rare M1903 "Bushmaster" Carbine

There was also a prototype for cavalry in 1921.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...last-charge-the-1921-m1903-prototype-carbine/

 

[Texas Star]

I'm unclear if this book is fiction. The OP should have made that clear.

But the .30 US carbine saw very considerable British use, in particular in Burma. In John Masters's autobios, you can see pics of British officers with them, and Masters specifically mentioned carrying such a carbine when he commanded the outpost called Blackpool.

I feel sure that some SOE and SAS personnel had .30 carbines at times.

 

[murphydog]

Here is an odd one.

A Remington Model 14-1/2, serial 20043, caliber .44-40 (aka .44 WCF) Based on the flush "REM-UMC" ammo indicator, the receiver not being tapped for a tang sight, and the last patent date on the barrel "Nov.19.12" I'd peg this rifle around 1913 production.

The DCP Canadian proof indicates it was part of an order for 4,000 in 44-40 for use during the First World War. These rifles were scattered all over the Empire, and at least one (serial 34292) is still in the Imperial War Museum.

From the Imperial War Museum site, there was this tidbit:

"At the outbreak of the First World War, few military aircraft were armed. As a result a variety of weapons were issued to airmen during the early part of the war. This American Remington pump-action rifle was one of 4000 purchased by the British Admiralty to address a shortage of service rifles, many of which had been transferred to the Army. The original intention was to equip various small naval craft, but a number of these rifles were passed to the Royal Naval Air Service as aircraft armament."

Aircraft armament?? Kinda makes you wonder if someone at the Admiralty had been into the grog? On the other hand, how long did the Royal Navy keep them around? Who got their hands on them and how?

This is not a huge surprise. Recall the extended magazines for K98 Mausers and 1903 Springfields for this exact reason. Aircraft at that time were commonly used for artillery spotting and observation and arming them because there might be opposing aircraft was an afterthought.

Personally I would not have wanted to be in a spotting balloon with someone slinging .44 bullets in my direction.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

The probability of a Brit Frogman coming ashore with a Remington Carbine is between Slim and None!

 

[BearBio]

Did Remington make the Reising?

 

[OFT II]

Did Remington make the Reising?

Nope, it was a product of H&R.