WWII Thompson Question....

[Jst1mr]

I noticed in the thread of WWII pictures elsewhere on this forum that quite a few Thompson subguns were equipped with drum-type magazines. Yet all I seem to see on the shows like "Band of Brothers" or now "The Pacific" are the stick type magazines. Were both types commonly in use and if so what determined who got which?

 

[Ron H.]

I noticed in the thread of WWII pictures elsewhere on this forum that quite a few Thompson subguns were equipped with drum-type magazines. Yet all I seem to see on the shows like "Band of Brothers" or now "The Pacific" are the stick type magazines. Were both types commonly in use and if so what determined who got which?

Sir, it seems like the drum magazines were pre-war items that saw use early on, but were largely phased out of combat use as the war went on. I've seen photos of Marines in combat on Guadalcanal in 1942 with Thompson drums, but none in the later campaigns.

I imagine stick magazines were quicker and cheaper to manufacture, and if I remember correctly, the later Thompson SMGs (M1 and M1A1) could not accept drums.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[45Wheelgun]

(I am doing this from memory, so keep that in mind)

In 1921, Colt made 25000 Thompson's. They did not sell well. In 1928 the navy contracted to purchase the remaining inventory. They modified it some (slowed the firing rate from 800/rpm to 600/rpm it became know as the 1928a model. Both the 1921 and the 1928 will accept a drum. The fit and finish of the Colt's was much better then the war production guns.

As WWII geared up and the government ordered additional guns (well past the original 25000) the gun was modified into the M1A1.

Notable differences: No cutout for the drum, cocking lever moved to the side from the top, and the elimination of the Cutts compensator. This was done to economize production. So you will see both 1928's and M1A1's in WWII movies and both are correct. There are lots more M1A1's then 1928/1921 versions.

 

[all5x]

I was on a Navy ship off the coast of Vietnam in '65 and '66..my special station was on the fantail when we brought junks along side to search them for contraband..I was armed with a Thompson and it had a drum magazine..we stopped using them when we got notice from higher ups to use stick mags due to malfunctions with the models we had..now the Navy had some old weapons to say the least..Browning BAR's M1 Carbines, Thompson's, Browning 30 CAL SMG's and a couple of 50's..our 45's were WWII vintage as we had 3 complete ACE 22LR pistols for training..loved to shoot them..got notice to deep six them and I was stupid enough not to take advantage of a Gunner's mate offer to give me everything but the frame off of all of them..and I am sure by the time we go to the last one he would have given it to me..but the 22 was not manly enough for me..young, dumb and full of it..my only excuse back then..

 

[Springfield Bob]

The drums rattled the cartridges which was too noisy for many GI's.

Also, although the 1928 model could take a stick mag, the early sticks only held like 10 rounds where as the WW II sticks held 20 rounds.

 

[cmort666]

The drums rattled the cartridges which was too noisy for many GI's.

Also, although the 1928 model could take a stick mag, the early sticks only held like 10 rounds where as the WW II sticks held 20 rounds.

You're off by ten. The first stick magazines held twenty rounds, the later ones, thirty. That's an anachronism pointed out in the Collector Grade Thompson book, regarding post WWII gangster movies set in the '20s and '30s which show thirty round magazines.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Just one thing to add, that the current modern manufacture Kahr/Thompson guns can use the vintage surplus mags (if you can still find them) by modifying the hole where the catch goes. I do believe they will still fit the original guns even after modification.

 

[leswad]

Here is how I understand it…

Auto-Ordnance had Colt make the first 15000 units, that did not sell that well since the gun was originally designed as a trench sweeper, and no war was going on in the 20's and 30's.

Model runs

Colt made:

1921 Rate of fire of around 900 rpm, had 20 round magazines, 50 round drum magazines, and 100 round drum magazines. Most valuable… An original 50 round drum magazine can go for around $5000.

1921AC in 1926 added the Cutts compensator to help with muzzle rise.

1927 Semi-Automatic Carbine... Very rare

1928 Navy Model is referred to today as the over-stamp model because they re-stamped the last 1 on 1921 with an 8. Trying to get military contracts, Auto Ordnance slowed the rate of fire from 900 rpm on the 1921’s to 600 rpm. Last of the original Colts.

WWII Came along and Auto-Ordnance and Savage made the following:
1928 Navy Model
M1928A1
M1
M1A1

The last of the Full Auto Thompsons produced were made by Auto-Ordnance and are stamped with the West Hurley, New York address. I am sure someone can correct me if my information is incorrect.

Of course for me, the M1A1 is the best since all, since the earlier defects were worked out in this final model... Plus I own one

Mine is on top, and a beat up 1921 (owner still has the original Colt lower) is on the bottom that used to be owned by a Texas Ranger is on the bottom. I can put the lower of the Colt on my M1A1 receiver and it still worked like a champ!

 

[45Wheelgun]

Leswad,

I think you have it better then my memory...although I am pretty sure the original number was 25,000. I had a "West Hurley" model 1928a and you are correct as to their markings. If I remember correctly they stop production around '86, just before the ban on civilian manufacture in '89 (?).

 

[cmort666]

Actually, the first guns were M1919s, with an offset track for the hook shaped cocking handle.

A large portion of these guns were diverted to the IRA in an incredible inside job organized by employees of Auto-Ordinance, apparently without Thompson's knowledge. Some of these guns were so early that they lacked sights and or butt stocks.

The first organization to use the Thompson submachinegun in combat was the IRA.

The British were confiscating these gun as late as the 1980s.

See the Collector Grade book, "Thompson: The American Legend, The First Submachinegun" by Hill. The edition I have is out of print, but I think a revised and expanded edition was recently released.

 

[leswad]

Leswad,

I think you have it better then my memory...although I am pretty sure the original number was 25,000. I had a "West Hurley" model 1928a and you are correct as to their markings. If I remember correctly they stop production around '86, just before the ban on civilian manufacture in '89 (?).

I checked, American Thunder and sure enough it is 15,000... I think you are right on about them discontinuing production in 86. I forgot about the original question... The drums were used early in the War but the elements really screwed up the reliability of the magazine. The M1A1 only accepts 20 and 30 round magazines.

 

[GatorFarmer]

There were both 50 and 100 rd (rare) drum mags for early Thompsons. Some of the Lend Lease guns sent to England were accompanied by drum mags and can be seen with such in period photos, including the famous one of Churchill fondling one. The 30 rd mags came out relatively late in the war, I think around the time that M3 grease guns were already starting to leave the factory. The Marines also had Reisings, with both regular and folding stocks (paras).

The Marines had been using Tommy Guns since the old days in Central America and Haiti.

One problem not mentioned with the drums is weight. With the 100 rd drums, one weighed more than a BAR to tote around. You had to wind the drums to get them to work, and ideally not leave them wound or let them get rusty in the jungle.

My maternal grandfather was able to obtain a Thompson (a glamour weapon at the time despite being heavy) somehow or another and used it as part of one of his last assignments of providing the security element to flame thrower teams in the Phillipines during the liberation. It was meant to be a punishment (he'd also been busted to Pfc) for having turned everyone loose to get drunk back when he was company sergeant. He came to enjoy it since it was his job to machine gun the Japanese when they'd come running out on fire. He'd still laugh about it with glee into the 80s. (He had a long hatred of the Japanese, apparently a friend of his was among those unlucky enough to have their throat slit one night, which really did happen from time to time and demoralized everyone.)

By the late war period, Thompsons no longer appearred on official USMC TO&Es, but guys still had them and no questions were asked.

 

[leswad]

Actually, the first guns were M1919s

I thought all of these were prototype guns and not production?

 

[Alpo]

Mr. Griffith is incorrect. Once you have modified the magazine to work with a semi it will no longer work with a full auto gun.

If you look at leswad's picture, you will see, in the magazine recess, that in the bottom gun there is a groove machined both forward and aft of the recess. There's two ridges on a drum that slide into these grooves. No grooves on the top gun. Drums won't work. But a stick mag has a different locking system, and works fine in both type guns.

Something I read, some time back. During landings in the Pacific, Marines carrying 1928s would have an L drum locked in, but when they shot it dry they just dumped it and went on. Too complicated to load, compared to a stick, and too delicate and prone to malfunction. Personally, I think that's why original drums cost so much money. Because so many of them are laying offshore in the Solomon Islands.

In case you're curious. Thompson magazines are named with Roman numerals. Originally there were XX sticks, and L and C drums. During the war they came up with the XXX stick. Sometime in the 80s, Auto Ordnance redesigned the L drum internals. The new drum was called the XL drum (they lied - it only holds 39 rounds). During the assault weapons ban they made a piece of kaka called an X drum.

 

[2152hq]

Drums most probably fell from use during the war from the cost of mfg'r vs the standard stick/box magazine.

The 30rd box mag came out in '42 I believe. Two of those (perhaps taped together) exceded the bulky 'L' Drums 50rd capacity anyway.

Perhaps also was the somewhat tedious rountine to reload the magazines with new rounds once empty. Removing the cover, dropping new rounds into their pockets, replacing the cover and rewinding the crank to the pre-determined #.
Not something easily done under combat conditions or even just when living in the field. Underwinding or overwinding the drums spring will cause problems with it's functioning.

The bolt must be held to the rear to insert a drum. There was a small steel plate called a 'third hand key' supplied with the commercial drums that was used to hold and block the bolt open while inserting and removing the drum(s).
But just another small item to get lost or jammed up in the mag rail slot with dirt in a combat situation.
Probably not alot of them used in the field.

 

[Texas Star]

I read that the British in 1940 found the drums too heavy and noisy. Also, too unreliable. US experience in the jungle soon verified this.

But the Marines should have known this since Haiti and Nicaragua in the 1920's.

T-Star

 

[45Wheelgun]

I checked, American Thunder and sure enough it is 15,000... I think you are right on about them discontinuing production in 86. I forgot about the original question... The drums were used early in the War but the elements really screwed up the reliability of the magazine. The M1A1 only accepts 20 and 30 round magazines.

Yup, I was off checking in my book by Hill. Not sure where I came up with 25.

I thought all of these were prototype guns and not production?

You are correct about this as well. Amazing how much I have forgotten.

Are any of you guys members of the TCA? I was for years when I had one. Love the show and shoot in Newark Ohio. Great times with great people.

 

[cmort666]

I thought all of these were prototype guns and not production?

A substantial number of preproduction M1919s were manufactured, many of them ending up in IRA hands. Surprisingly, none of the Auto Ordinance people involved in the smuggling ring did jail time. Not surprisingly, the Black & Tans weren't terribly popular in the NY/NJ area.

 

[calmex]

Years back, when I lived in Canada, we had a couple of Thompsons amongst other stuff. We had a really nice 1928/A1 Savage that had been to England and back. It had the English proof marks in pounds on the barrel, the little crown, and was marked "TOMMY GUN". We also had an M1/A1. Here they are framed by an MG-34 (not some copy or semi, it worked), two Stens, and my old Garand. Wish I had them now.

The 1928/A1 came with a 50 round drum and some 20 round sticks. I had both types of fore-ends, the "gangster type" finger-groove grip, and the Military straight foregrip. It would take the drum mags, or the stick mags. The M1/A1, as has been mentioned, would only work with the stick mags. I saw, once, an M1/A1 that had been "modified" by it's owner to work with the drums, but as-issued, the M1 series only was meant to work with the stick magazines.

I fired both guns a lot, in fact, every chance I could get out to the range with them (which for several years, was at least once a week over the summers). I particularly liked to shoot the 1928, often sporting a 20 or 30 round stick mag and the straight foregrip as I was always a fan of Christopher George in "The Rat Patrol" who was armed thus. No, I didn't dress the part. I put an old Lee Enfield sling on it often, as that was what English Thompsons used anyway.

I shot both guns a lot, however, in some strange quirck of fate, I have only photos of myself shooting the 1928. It gives (incorrectly) the impression that I did not like the M1/A1. I really DO LIKE the M1 - M1/A1 series, they work slick and mine shot bang-on and never jammed with ANYTHING. However, I simply have no photos of me shooting it. The 1928 was so much more "photogenic" I suppose. And besides, it is what Sgt. Troy used.

At Second Chance in 1980, I saw a couple of guys clean 10 pins off of the pin tables using Thompsons and one 30-round stick mag with one pull of the trigger. This in front of quite a crowd. I used to play that game on our old home range whenever I could, and I managed a couple of rare times to actually do the trick. But I certainly couldn't do it everytime in front of witnesses! Personally, the M1/A1 worked better for me at this trick than the 1928. It shot just a bit faster (by about 1 round a second) and I liked the sight setup better than the 1928 "through the cocking slot" arrangement.

You could fire the Thompsons and kiss the butt. I mean, you didn't HIT anything doing this, but all the malarky about how they'll "spin you around" is somewhat overdone. I found the 1928 easier to do this with. I don't know if it was the Cutts compensator (which I really didn't feel did much except look cool), the slightly slower firing rate of our 1928 as opposed to our M1/A1, or maybe the Blish Lock actually only helped you to kiss the butt on full-auto? Beats me.

I maybe wasn't as good with the Thompsons as those guys I saw at Second Chance oh-so-long-ago-now, but I had a good reputation amongst my own little group of fanatics. We put on full-auto demonstations for a couple of Museums, and out at the Military Base and such, on a fairly regular basis. I'd shoot down 6 Pepper Poppers with one burst from a Tommy Gun or put a 50-round belt from an MG-42 or MG-34 into a 50 gallon drum (not all that far away) in one long burst to amuse and amaze the gathered. We'd set up big "gun tables" so the interested could have a try if ammo was plentiful, and on the Base, it usually was.

At one or another of these fun shoots, a Canadian Forces Lieutenant of my acquaintance saw me do the "kiss the butt" trick. This gentleman had a rather nice looking daughter and another hot step-daughter. A week or two after seeing me kiss the butt of a 1928 Thompson on full-auto, he thought he might impress the girls himself with a little similar derring-do.

Out shooting with the girls, he hoisted his issue C-8 (Canadian equivilent more-or-less of the M-4 version of the M-16) with a 30 round mag installed, said "Watch this, girls!" and pegged the sliding buttstock to his lips and let her rip.

I saw him a couple of days later with his mashed lips, and he muttered to me; "Yer trick doesn't work so well with the C-8."

The 1928/A1 is now in the Evergreen Machine Gun Museum in Belmont, Manitoba. A few others of our old collection are there as well. Most of it was sold off before I moved down here, and all I lost to the government when they moved in on all the auto stuff was one Sten Mk II (of which we had owned several). I shot (again) our old 1928/A1 while visiting Manitoba and especially the Evergreen Museum in 2005. I have no scanned photos of that moment, although there were people there taking pics. I do have this shot - same day - firing a fairly new condition MG-34 off one of the shooting benches. An MP-40 and an M1 Thompson are laying on the table just in front of the MG-34. An MG-42 with it's feed-cover open is on the table behind me. Ah, the Evergreen Museum: a little piece of Heaven right there in central Manitoba.

If you care how I feel about this, these are my thoughts: I am glad I got the chance to do this. The fact that we were pretty much forced to "sell or lose" our collection because Canadian Law decided that they wanted to go down that road was one of the BIG factors in making me decide to go live someplace warm. My thoughts at the time were; "If I have to live with crappy gunlaws, I might as well live in the sun!" I was either going to do the Southern U.S. or Mexico, but Mexico was easier to do with no "investment capital" so I tried it first and left the U.S. as my back-up in case of failure. I'm still here, of course, and the gun laws are still crappy. The sun shines a lot though. So guard them rights, because they'll take 'em from you if they think they can.

I am glad I had the chance to play over a good period with such neat guns. I do miss having a couple of Thompsons around. They are expensive to feed and make you paranoid about leaving home for any length of time even if you have a safe like Fort Knox (we had one). But there's sure no nicer way to watch old Rat Patrol re-runs than with a super-nice 1928/A1 on your lap, and a rather ratty M1/A1 greasing up the lap of one of your invited viewing guests.

 

[leswad]

Calmex,

Thanks for sharing and reminding us how important our gun rights are. I think I will treasure mine more than ever now even if I don't kiss the butt!

leswad