Newbie question here. I'm thinking about a Ruger PCC. This Brownell's episode of Smythbusters:


contradicted itself. They both recommended PCCs for home defense, but then said that the higher velocities of 9mm would reduce reliable expansion of hollow points and something about the powder burn rate being designed for shorter barrels. I didn't understand the latter.

Given yesterday's successful defense at a Norco (Southern) California liquor store by an 80 year-old clerk vs. four robbers, I'm leaning more toward a shotgun for my home defense.

Thoughts?

I prefer a Shotgun Caliber Firearm.



Or a Shotgun Caliber Handgun...

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I’d stay away from shotgun pistols and shotguns without a butt stock.

They’re very hard to shoot well and, in the case of 410 pistols, ineffective beyond about 6 feet (unless you’re shooting a snake at your feet).

The powder has a fast burn rate so that you get a complete burn before the bullet leaves the barrel on a short barreled pistol. With a longer barrel the powder is finished before the bullet leaves the barrel so there's actually a point to where the bullets speed will actually be impeded by drag. At least that's my understanding. Self-defense is more of an art than a science, so everyone has an opinion that they think is correct. Myself included. I have never been a fan of long guns for home defense. If you're going to call 911 then sit in your bedroom while you wait for the police that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm personally not comfortable clearing a room while carrying a long gun because it just seems to me that it would be too easy for someone to wrestle you for it. If you've had training you likely feel differently about it. And again, it's also possible that I'm completely wrong which I'm sure others will gladly point out to me.

Thanks. My concern is that I'm not always in my safe room and that it might not be feasible to access it, depending upon where I am in my house and where the burglar(s) presents. In particular, my basement door is between my home office and safe room.

Mine is a Beretta CX-4 in 9mm paired with Beretta 92 Centurion. 16" barrel w/ an overall length of 29"... 15-30rd factory or Mec-gar mags..... 1300-1700 fps and 400-600 ft.lbs of muzzle energy.

NO one likes to get shot with even a .22lr...... so a double or triple tap of 9mm is IMHO GG

Some studies say .223 is less likely to overpenetrate w/in a home..... but consider muzzle blast out of a short barreled AR

Personally I am not a fan of long guns for home defense for most people. They are very easy to take away from you unless you have extensive training and almost everybody tends to lead with the muzzle while going around corners. If you are in a position where you can "fort up" aim at the door and wait for the cops it might be a good idea. Otherwise I would tend to go with a hand gun. In addition with most calibers your overpenetration potential with a long gun goes up. (My opinion, for what that might be worth to you.)

I don't think you'll have an issue with whatever you choose. If I had my druthers I'd just have an AR secured nearby, but I'd absolutely prefer anything with a stock (including a PCC or shotgun) to a handgun. I had a Ruger PCC when it was new and didn't much care for it. The recoil impulse as a blowback design didn't over any benefit over. 223 in an AR, you accept certain ballistic drawbacks, and at the time there wasn't really any price savings vs. getting an AR. Some of that is still a thing to consider, but the PCC will offer you cheaper practice ammo, and if you like a gun, you like it, and that's what matters.

"Unreliable expansion at faster velocities" - Uh, that's mostly BS unless "unreliable expansion" is defined. You could definitely push the bullet to the point that it opens and then fragments inside the target, but that would need to be tested and probable has by someone on YouTube. But saying that the bullet wouldn't expand because it's going too fast doesn't make any logical sense.

"Burn rate for shorter barrels" - yep, absolutely true. Again, this is something that would need to be tested. I think, but don't know for sure, that a 9mm fired in a 16-inch barrel probably is being dragged a bit because the powder finished burning before the bullet exited the barrel.

While I'd prefer a shotgun for my home defense weapon I'd have no problem with the PCC. Having a 9mm long gun and a 9mm handgun just may be what a lot of people need. 9mm is readily available and SD ammo is easy to find and inexpensive. I'd think some Gold Dot 124+P or HST 124+P would make that PCC one formidable firearm.

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

I believe that instead of "unreliable expansion" what they should have said was "unreliable penetration". Above the velocities they were designed for bullets tend to expand much faster and that reduces penetration. I think that if I felt I needed a rifle and a pistol for home defense I would rather just move. But again, it's an art and everyone has their own ideas. I just want to add here that if you do choose the PCC, make sure it is reliable. I had a LOT of stovepipe issues with mine. After trying a lot of remedies I finally (I hope) got it working right. If you do a search using PCC and stovepipes you will find a lot of others who had the same issue. Most seem to have been able to correct their issue after a while.

My Judge isn't hard to shoot at all and has been accurate out to 20 yards with 000 Buckshot.

Have you ever actually shot a .410 Revolver before or are you just repeating what you've heard?

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Well, everybody has an opinion on this topic. A agree that you do not want a long barreled long gun. For me, my home protection package is a 12GA model 97 riot gun and a Glock 36 45acp. I know this is the S&W forum, but the Glock is the most reliable semi auto I own. It eats everything with complete reliability, and what is not to like about the time proven 45 acp? BTW, my load is standard hardball, and my shotgun is a load of #2 shot

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Pete
I ain't no fortunate son

I’m with border boss. Barrel drag is a thing. However every chrono test I’ve ever seen verified that like loads are faster from a 16” barrel than a 4-5” barrel. Maybe all the talking heads on tv and on the inner web are priming us for a new 9mm load designed for rifle length barrels. I put nothing past the marketer’s

I don't think anyone on here has said that bullets will exit the 16" barrel slower than they will from a 5" barrel. All the chrono tests I've seen show about a 200 foot per second increase (mol). Talking heads and marketers aside, you can't fight the laws of physics.

My only “PCC” is this one, though I suspect some pedant will insist it is actually an “RCC”.

I doubt I’ll ever be called upon to defend the homestead, but if so this should do the job.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Op, your PCC is just fine.

Have a plan. No where your fields of fire are, meaning “do I have a reliable back stop at the other end of the room? “

It’s not rocket science. Just some common sense.

Watch the video. Listen carefully. If done right the length of a long gun in the home is not an issue.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Just as long as it's reliable. For me that's the critical point on using the PCC for home defense. As it came from the factory I got at least one stovepipe for every 10 rounds or so. They hung up in a way that required dropping the mag to clear. Take it out and put a few hundred rounds through it just to make sure. A 90% reliable rifle is NOT a reliable rifle. I think mine is working okay finally. Last time out I fired 200 rounds without a jam so (fingers crossed) I'm hoping it's good to go now.

1sailor, which brand/model of PCC do you have that stovepipes every 10 rounds?

The PCC is a niche gun. Many guns are niche guns, meaning they have a specific use that they excel. Any gun can be pressed for home defense say...a 1903 Springfield. It's a good platform, most will agree though that an old 03's niche is not home defense.

The basic shotgun's niche is upland and wing shooting, but another niche of the shotgun is its ambiguity and ability to do almost anything. It may not excel but it's very capable at many, many things. In other words, a shotgun is jack of all trades and does many well.

A 22 rifle's niche is small game and target shooting. Can it be pressed for big game? Sure, but it's not ideal. Can it be pressed for home defense, Sure but...?
A 22 is touted as one of the best all-around but really it has too much range, the round has too much penetration (in the home) and is too ineffective. A 22 rifle can be a jack of all trades but unlike a shot gun it does few well.

What's the niche of the black and the orange rifles (ARs and AKs) with their intermediate cartridges? They are not a great big game hunting rifle like a full-size service rifle. Are they really that good for home defense? What about penetration? What about range?
The black and the orange excel at medium game or varmints where decent range is needed. They excel at multiple targets like herds of hogs or groups of coyotes or feral dogs. These guns excel for target and sport shooting. Lastly though, their real niche is opposing others with black or orange rifles at real battle ranges.

What's the niche of a pistol caliber carbine?
In my opinion the following are the best uses for the PCC.
1. Property defense/livestock defense. It has the range but not too much range, the accuracy if properly sighted and the knock down power to put stuff down.
After killing a couple of your goats or calves, maybe killing or maiming your own dog in your fence, Fluffy and Speedy may make it home full of .22LRs or shot. You don't want Fluffy and Speedy to make it home.
I'm not an advocate of this unless it's the last resort. Something that comes on to your property and kills your animals and pets maybe even on your porch is a dangerous threat. Use restraint and judgement. A phone call to Fluffy and Speedys owners may be the best course. Then again, any animal bold enough to kill your cat or your dog in front of your front door may do the same to your toddler child or grandchild. This is why the gun needs to be quicky assessable, to stop the act.
A shotgun with slugs, a full-size service rifle and even an intermediate black/orange rifle may be too much for this type of duty.
This is the traditional role of a PCC. Think Winchester 1866/1873/1892 in those old pistol calibers...44 Henry Flat, 25-20, 32-20, 44-40...All are great property defense rounds out of a carbine.

2. As a quick sub-gun for home defense. With the detachable magazine (high-capacity Glock) the Ruger PCC can be loaded quickly and has much more controllable fire power than a pistol of the same caliber. (Yeah, I know this is debatable) ... It does not have excessive penetration like a service or intermediate rifle. It's quicker to load and get into battery than a completely unloaded pump or auto shot gun.
The thing is...
It has to be accessible for quick load and quick use.

Personally, if I need more firepower than what I have from a pistol for home defense, it's time to move.

When it comes to the videos put out on YouTube by Brownell's, after watching a few of them while trapped at home during the Covid shutdown of 2020, I have come to the conclusion that they're just throwing content out there for the sake of having it, and a lot of the information is garbage.

54ball, thanks. You wrote:

"A 22 rifle's niche is small game and target shooting. Can it be pressed for big game? Sure, but it's not ideal. Can it be pressed for home defense, Sure but...? A 22 is touted as one of the best all-around but really it has too much range, the round has too much penetration (in the home) and is too ineffective. A 22 rifle can be a jack of all trades but unlike a shot gun it does few well."

Do you mean .223 Remington or .22LR?

What do you use for home defense?

Thanks

Within the confines of your house a shotgun can be devastating in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.

I’ll take a 12 gauge before any handgun.

If you want the truth on YouTube see Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I'm not into carbine length pistol calibers for home defense but I do like the shorter barrel lengths that are still classified as pistols, like an 8" barrel PDW (which I think was the barrel length in the video).

I've not tested 9x19 in a 16" barrel but an 8" definitely gains velocity over traditional pistol barrel lengths with medium speed powers (P-P & L-S) & slower powders (AA#7) gain even more and is plenty fast.

My son has a 4" 9mm Freedom Ordnance FX-9 AR pistol & I have the 8" version & they're both super accurate using red dot sights since they're more like a rifle than a pistol.

As far as their bullets "under-performing" I think it would more be a matter of "over-performing" if you used a bullet designed to expand in a short barrel, & at lower velocities, but at the higher velocities. Just use the properly designed bullet for your application.

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8" FX-9, 9x19
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Warning: Some are non-standard loads. Use at your own risk.
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Waiting for the break of day

A very good question that deserves an answer.

I was referring to the .22rimfire (22LR). Again, for what it is, it has too much range and penetration. It also can be ineffective. In a sense it's the worst of all worlds.
Many take it lightly like it's an advanced BB gun. It's not! It's a deadly round that has a range of 1-1/2 miles. It's not enough and too much at the same time, in my opinion.

A 223/5.56/7.62x39 are intermediate or "assault rifle" (that's their historical ID) rounds. They are not as heavy as a full-sized service round. They are much more powerful than a pistol or sub caliber round.
Really, they may be too much for a home defense scenario. With that said, too much gun or too little of a gun is always better than no gun. It goes back to what is accessible.

I have never had to defend my place against 2 legged critters, only 4 legged critters, thank God.

Whatever was accessible. I have used a hoe.
Yep, a garden hoe. It was right there, and I used it to save the rest of my chickens. A pair of abandoned dogs were in the coop. In that case the hoe got them out of the coop but unfortunately for them they did not leave. They stayed around long enough for me to back in the house and retrieve a long gun.

Growing up what's been used for defense or "fired in anger" against 4 legged critters killin stuff on my, or my parents place....
Shotguns....12 gauge pumps Duck shot was used because it was accessible. My Dad and I were back from duck hunting...

20-gauge double...I kept it assessable and ready. It was a little much for rats in the chicken coop.

Model 70 30-06...
That was a mistake. It did the job, but it was too much gun. There's just too much potential of...?
The joker has a range of 3 miles. It's just too much.
You can say the same about the black rifles.
By far using that rifle for that bothers me to this day. It was poor judgement.

.22LR rifles or pistols...several times but never used. Now the 22LRs have been used for...mercy on the farm.
My. 38s... several times but never actually used except for mercy once.
A flintlock rifle one time, shouldered, aimed and cocked but not fired.

What I have used is what was easily accessible including the hoe.
My go to, has been either my pistols or my shot guns.

I don't have a PCC but, in my opinion, it would have fit much better in many of these scenarios.
Still though...
Best all-around is a shotgun. If I had no gun at all, I would get a shotgun before anything else.

According to This Chart, 9mm will continue to gain velocity in barrels up to about 16-17".

I would argue that a pistol caliber carbine is ideal because of the complete burn of the powder. You get less muzzle blast and flash. Will make for easier followup shots and easier on the ears. Most pistol caliber carbines get you 200+fps increase over a 4" pistol.

Rosewood

As a general rule of thumb, most pistol cartridges make appreciable gains in velocity up to about 12", beyond that, you get diminishing returns, maybe only 50-100 fps from 12" to 18" and sometimes it even drops.

The selected powder also has a big effect on it. If you go with a slower burning powder, you get more gains in velocity over a faster powder as it has more time to burn and accelerate the projectile.

Rosewood

You ought yo go ahead and click on the chart because that's not what the data shows. For most loads the velocity gain between 8-12" is essentially the same as the velocity gain between 12-16". For most loads velocity does not begin to drop until 17-18". Don't just repeat the same old wive's tale when you have been given the data.

Am also following this concept with a 4.5 in 9mm with folding stock and 5 in 45 acp braced. Both are legal, and incredibly easy to use/control and be accurate with. Folded, the 9mm is extremely short and muzzle accessory friendly. Am trying to plan ahead for getting even older.

I just use my CCW. A 340PD loaded with 38 Special +P.

At night it's in the pocket of my cargo shorts hanging on a chair.

I am basing my statement on what you find on the ballistics by the inch webpage also. It ain't a wives tale. I guess we interpret the data differently, 50 fps or so difference gain from 12-18" aint much to speak of. That is specifically looking at the 9mm also, I was generalizing across other cartridges also.

Look at the data for the 44 mag, 357 mag etc, then tell me I am quoting a wives tale.


And how can it be a wives tale? I come up with that statement from my past study of the BBTI webpage, I have never head anyone else make that statement.
Rosewood

Your claim that 12.5" was somehow an optimal barrel length is provably false. It's a completely arbitrary number. You also stated that increasing barrel length beyond that point resulted in diminishing returns while the data shoes that inch by inch, the velocity gain remains fairly consistent.

I have 4 AR's, 3 AK's, and 3 9mm SBR's that all use 30+ round mags.

The one on the right leans against the head board of my bed. A 1960's Winchester 1200. My P365 is on the nightstand, only because that's where it stays if it's not on my hip.

Hollow point performance at pistol caliber carbine velocities depends on the hollow point.

In some cases, higher than normal velocities create more rapid expansion and can actually result in under penetration, and in the extreme can cause the hollow point to start shedding pieces.

In other cases, the bullet will open up a bit more, but the added velocity will keep the penetration within acceptable limits.

For example, the 124 gr Sig V-crown fired from a 8.3” MP5 achieves roughly 1350 fps and penetrates 15-16”.



At lower velocities in shorter barrels it expands a bit less, it still penetrates 14-16”.



I’ve also had good results with the 115 gr Hornady XTP. It’s more of a mushrooming bullet at pistol velocities and just mushrooms more at PCC velocities while still giving good penetration in the 17-18” range.

——

I’ve shot both bullets using the same load in 8” and 10” pistols as well as in my 16” Colt 6450 16” carbine and velocities are not significantly higher in the longer barrel. They don’t get “slower” as is the popular internet myth. They just don’t gain very much additional velocity per inch of additional barrel in longer barrels.

For example the 115 gr XTP fired from my 8.3” MP5 will have an average velocity of 1437 fps, and in my 16” 6450 the average velocity only increases 88 fps to 1525 fps.

As a partial aside, that’s an increase of only about 11 fps per inch of additional barrel. That’s not much and in fact it’s that’s less than the normal less shot to shot variation in velocity (standard deviation) per inch of barrel length.

The folks at Ballistics By the Inch mean well, but their method of shooting just three shots over a pair of chronographs to get six data points is still only a three shot sample size. Unfortunately because of the small sample size and high standard deviation, they show a decreased average velocity for barrel lengths an inch or two longer and people will conclude bullets “ slow down” in longer barrels, which isn’t the case.

I'm not a fan of the PCC myself. If I'm gunna deal with a stock and a two handed grip, I want some power out of the thing. My side of the bed always has an AR or a pump shotgun. I have to qualify with them for the work place, so...it's a pretty natural fit.

Now that I've obstinately shot my mouth off, I will concede that my household does benefit from a PCC.

A Kel-Tec Sub 2K 9mm lives on my Wife's side of the bed. We will be celebrating our 25th Wedding Anniversary soon. In all those years, I've owned numerous ARs. AKs, M1As, H&Ks, etc. and she has never, ever taken an interest in any of them. I am able to get her to familiarize herself with their operation, but nothing further.

She is a little bit recoil sensitive and she is a lot bit noise sensitive. The Kel-Tec for her is particularly light, handy, not so insanely loud, with a darn reasonable bit of power, and a heckuva lot of capacity. But the big rub of it is that she really, really enjoys shooting it. I can set her up with a couple hundred rounds loaded in mags and she will giggle, perforate targets, and ding steel until there is not a single round left. The magazine compatibility with her Glock 34 ain't a bad thing either.

OP, I think you'll be fine with a PCC for home defense. You can get proficient with it in lot less time than a pistol.

This is a hobbyist website, so of course we rare going to debate the finer points until the cows come home, and after.

Is a PCC the BEST choice for home defense? For who? It might be for some people.

Personally, I love the knock down power of a 12 gauge with buckshot, and I have one next to the bed. If I ever hear the front door being kicked in in he middle of the night, so I KNOW I have "situation" on my hands, that is what I am grabbing.

But I also have a pistol next to the bed, in my case a Beretta 96, .40 S&W with 180 grain HST's loaded. That's the one that I pick up when something goes "bump" in he night, and my wife won't let me go back to sleep until I go see what it is.

There are a whole lot of good choices for home defense. What is "best" is a highly individualized matter.

Nothing say's ... "Defend My Home " like a short barreled pump shotgun and a " Bandolier of Buckshot " !!!

Forget the trash the U-Tubbers spew out to make themselves appear relevant ... they aren't .... Just stick with old school basics .

If you aren't a shooter / hunter ... get yourself a non-tactical good old fashioned pump shotgun , short bbl. is handy , a box of shells and shoot a round of skeet or sporting clays to get the hang of it ...practice with birdshot . Buy a box of each - 00 Buckshot for long range and my favorite for inside the house is #4 Buckshot ... shoot a few of these at targets so you will see how the shot spread and pattern .

Very few men will stand and shoot it out with a homeowner fiireing loads of buckshot at them ... just way too much firepower , they will break and run or surrender .
Gary

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NRA Member

To be effective, the shotgun has to be loaded with the proper ammunition. That isn't birdshot. Also, even buckshot/rifled slug isn't as effective as myth and legend would make you believe. OTOH, myth and legend might make actual use unnecessary. Depending upon your house layout, the spread of buckshot may be a problem. Federal Tactical Buckshot holds much tighter patterns, but you need to shoot some in your shotgun to see when/if spread/stray pellets become a problem.

Having watched the clip above and with due apologies to Clint: your firearm selection depends upon what you're gonna do with it. The handgun can be used with one (gun) hand, leaving the other hand free to turn on lights, open doors, control a child or help an aged/less able adult while still being capable of instant use. Also, and since the OP worries about getting to his PCC/shotgun, the handgun can be worn at (almost) all times within the home.

Clint's point about the OAL of raised long gun and handgun assumes that you shoot with your arms fully extended instead of flexed elbows. It gets down right silly if you have to search your house for the bump in the night. It's silly because of the handgun ready position where you draw your arms in and have the hands against the chest with the muzzle of the gun forward and slightly upward. If necessary, you can simply lower the muzzle and fire.

Not strictly a PCC, but an M-1 Carbine-with the bayonet attached. "WHAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE BAYONET !!!!"

This gets into a tactics discussion. I resolved long ago that "searching the house for the bump in the night" is a fool's errand. That's what the cops are for. You set a position that is your defense area and do not let anyone violate it without them getting perforated. For me, that's the stairway leading to the second floor where the bedrooms are. This eliminates the issue of "the barrel is too long to walk around the house with it".

WRMoore, I don’t think the effectiveness of a 1oz 12ga slug is a myth. They are devastating out to 100 yds. I’ve deer hunted with them most of my life. The question is can you hit your target with them. Which bring me back to OP question. A lot , maybe even most people don’t shoot a handgun very well. It is easier to shoot a PCC accurately. I think this ultimately boost the shooter’s confidence. So for some people yeah the PCC is the ticket…….. also there is a reason Ruger and many others produce PCCs with 16” barrels. They’ve all done their research and that’s the sweet spot.

16 inch barrels are not the "sweet spot" it's the "LAW"! Anything less is a SBR with a $200 tax stamp and a bunch of paperwork.

Beretta supplies several countries with a full auto version of the CX-4 ..... these guns have 12" barrels

There are pros and cons. The biggest downside of a short barrel AR-15 in .223 is the noise - about 156 dB, and in an enclosed space that’s permanent hearing loss level of damage

In comparison I’ve measured the noise level of my 9mm AR-15 and it’s just 122 dB at the ear. That’s down in suppressed AR-15 .223 territory.

On the other hand, a M193 style 55 gr FMJ will tumble and fragment at short range from a 16” barrel and is very effective. It’s also less likeLy to exit the house of you miss. In contrast a 9mm will pass through a couple interior walls and an exterior wall.

Then again, the flash with a 9mm carbine is a total non issue. That’s not the car with a 16” .223.

Late to the party.... Here is mine, a Beretta CX4 in 9mm. It's primary use is home defense and range fun. 20 round mags loaded with 124 grn. HST. SIG red dot that co-witnesses with factory irons, and a Streamlight weapons light. Great ergonomics and handling, fast and accurate, natural pointing. About 800 124 hardball, and 200 HST's thru it w/o issue.

I like a carbine for home defense, with the benefits discussed already in above posts. Just be sure to use a sling, and know what you are doing if attempting to use one in tight spaces.

Larry

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That's not a gun selection issue, that's a tactical issue you need to work out.

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Live long and prosper

I'd like my gun back please!

LOL mine is all black and being right handed I moved the charging handle to the left side!

MP5 for the win.

I think everyone reading this is aware of the law bam. But thanks.

I prefer a duty sized 9mm handgun for home defense backed up by a rifle if things really go sideways. I have nothing against shotguns, but I am not as well versed in them having very limited spaces to shoot one in other than at an indoor range. Hence, I sold my 870 Magnum years ago and have never had any remorse over it.

As for PCC in 9mm, the expansion issue with HP bullets is more likely for them to fragment or open up too much and possibly underpenetrate. So if I load up my PCC (Hi Point 995TS purchased as a range toy) I do so with 147 gr defensive ammo that is more likely to be slower in the first place. In regards to burn rate, IIRC 14" bbls are the sweet spot for 9mm. Anything after 14" bbls and the powder has burnt and pressures drop so those last 2" slow it down a bit. But, being that bbls have to be 16" or more unless registering as a SBR we're stuck with 16".

Edit to add: bonded bullets in PCC are probably preferred to mitigate/eliminate bullet fragmentation