I have a Para-Ordnance P13.45 which is essentially a Commander clone with a double stack magazine. My current belt holster has a retention strap on it, but the strap snaps closed only with the hammer down. I have considered buying a holster with a strap configured for cocked and locked carry. I recently sold a Bianchi Pistol Pocket that was configured that way, but it was an in-the-waistband holster that ended up pointing the gun at my family gems. I was not comfortable with that. It seemed risky, especially in the event of a struggle with an opponent over posession of the gun. So today I went looking for a regular belt mounted holster with a retention strap for cocked and locked carry. I found out that Bianchi no longer offers this option, I'm told due to liability issues. The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons). So now I'm wondering which risk is higher:
1. The risk that you would accidentally discharge the firearm due to carrying it loaded and cocked, or...
2. The risk of being hurt or killed because you could not get your gun into action in time to save yourself.
Your thoughts?
Thanks.

I have a Para-Ordnance P13.45 which is essentially a Commander clone with a double stack magazine. My current belt holster has a retention strap on it, but the strap snaps closed only with the hammer down. I have considered buying a holster with a strap configured for cocked and locked carry. I recently sold a Bianchi Pistol Pocket that was configured that way, but it was an in-the-waistband holster that ended up pointing the gun at my family gems. I was not comfortable with that. It seemed risky, especially in the event of a struggle with an opponent over posession of the gun. So today I went looking for a regular belt mounted holster with a retention strap for cocked and locked carry. I found out that Bianchi no longer offers this option, I'm told due to liability issues. The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons). So now I'm wondering which risk is higher:
1. The risk that you would accidentally discharge the firearm due to carrying it loaded and cocked, or...
2. The risk of being hurt or killed because you could not get your gun into action in time to save yourself.
Your thoughts?
Thanks.

There is also option#3.I have my CS9 converted to DAO with a round in chamber ready if I need it.I shot double action revolvers for years and it is just natural for me.My CS9 started out as a DA/SA model till one day I had been walking around the entire day in single action no safety ready to rock and roll.A 1911 on the other hand is designed to carry cocked and locked.As long as you are comfortable and safe that way I don't see a problem with it.If I was so inclined to carry a 1911 it would be cocked and locked.You have two built in safeties with the manual and the built in grip safety so the risk of accidental discharge is low in compitent hands.........Mike

My current everyday carry is a 1911PD or Kimber CDP Ultra, cocked and locked. I have been carrying 1911's and the Browning Hi Power on and off over the years, before & after my LEO career. I have always carried them in an open top belt holster or IWB holster. In 30 years I have never had a problem. As far as I'm concerned, it is no different than carrying a GLOCK.

I would actually feel more comfortable carrying a cocked and locked 1911 in my waistband, sans holster, that a Glock the same way.

If you are squimish carrying cocked and locked, do what others suggest...Try carrying the gun without one oin the chamber cocked and locked until you feel comfortable with it. It won't take long for you to see how safe it is. Whatever you do I strongly suggest a holster that covers the trigger. Even if the safety were to be bumped off, there is NO WAY the 1911 will GO OFF. Try it....

Some opine that the 1911 platform was designed to be carried cocked and locked with round in chamber. Honest folks could agree to disagree on that, however most handgunners who consider themselves savvy do carry cocked and locked with no snap or strap.

As an anecdote, I can't remember any harm coming to carrying the gun cocked and locked.

Carry the gun around your house in its holster, cocked and locked but unloaded. After a few weeks, you will discover that the gun did not ever drop the hammer. This should give you some confidence in carrying the gun in such fashion out in public.

For a short time I carried my S/A (1911) without a round being chambered. While driving, my friend asked me to SLOWLY and without REALLY doing it, to go thru the process of drawing the weapon and cycyling in a round. His point to me was made--during a heated moment you run too much of a risk to yourself and others by drawing AND racking. It's now a no brainer to me that cocked and locked is actually not only the only way to carry S/A, but IMHO, the safest. As far as carrying, I'd look for an exact holster for the weapon that is comfortable. Good luck.

Working as a security guard years ago, I used to carry a Colt Delta Elite C&L'd in a Safariland SIII security holster. Never had any problems, except when folks would ask if I "knew that" my gun was cocked, and if "that was really safe"...
I would always assure them that with the grip safety, firing pin safety and the strap between the hammer and the firing pin, it was TOTALLY SAFE.

Do not listen to morons.

don hume, galco, desantis, and others which you have to ask makes a holster for the commander with a thumb break for a 1911 cocked and locked.

how you decide to carry will depend on you, however you will need to train continously so if you have to get into action quickly, it will be automatic.

of course carrying cocked and locked is the quickest way to get into action.

safety only depends on you.

keeping your finger off the trigger (unless ready to fire) is the main safety.

your Para (IIRC) is basically a Series 80 Colt system with the firing pin safety. so if its working properly, the only way it will fire is squeezing the trigger, thumb safety off and depressing the grip safety.

I know someone who was carrying a 1911 in his waistband and for whatever reason, decided to drop the hammer over a live round while the gun was still in his waist band. the hammer slip and shot a gouge in his right upper leg. He got a butt chewing for Admin and he is suppose to get with me for training but I have not seen him. Since this was a off duty incident it was only a suggestion and I doubt he will ever come see me.

I know there are many option of carry mode for 1911, but controlled dropping of the hammer over a live round is asking for trouble.

He was stupid to do this in his waistband, plain and simple. I only carry cocked and lock and never had an issue.

good luck

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if you're gonna be a bear...

Carry cocked and locked if you can, hammer down on an empty chamber if you must, but NEVER carry with the hammer down on a live round in a single action 1911. Every book ever written on the subject, including Colt manuals, cautions against this, and for good reason. In order to drop the hammer, you have to pull the trigger, which disables ALL safties.

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Science plus Art

From my observations at the Chapman Range in Columbia Mo. years ago I watched in some fascination Israeli shooters fire very fast from hammer down and no round in the chamber. they were so fast and smooth I was impressed. Being impressed was all. They practice constantly like that or at least they did. I tried for two weeks with a empty 1911 and after taking hide off of my left hand and never getting used to it I gave up and went back to condition one. I only tried the empty chamber due to the same reason you mentioned. "Your gun is cocked did you know that" I never worried that there would be a accidental discharge. Try Tucker Gunleather for a thumb snap if that will make you feel better......Just type in Tucker Gunleather......good shooting

Thanks for replies so far. George, I checked Tucker and did not see a single holster with a retention strap, either leather or Kydex. They must have discontinued them.
Anybody have any other ideas regarding holstermakers who make a retention strap for cocked and locked? As I mentioned, Bianchi used to but no more.
Thanks.

If you carry with one in the chamber, make very sure that the trigger is protected and cannot be pulled or pushed accidently.

I carry all my 1911s cocked and locked, they were designed that way, and for good reason.

As long as your comfortable with it and have a suitable holster go for it. There is also a safety check... With thumb safety engaged, pull trigger hard and release, hold the pistol to your ear, then pull the hammer back a little, if you hear a click, have a new safety fitted, if not your good to go. Also be sure your grip safety works as it should.

If these two things check out your ready for cocked and locked.

IMO, that's a classic case of gun shop owner who doesn't know much about handguns..

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Mick

Heres some nice hosters for the Para. Not sure exactly what you were looking for though. Godd luck. Mike.

http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG2.asp

My view is that a retention strap is more likely to cause an ND while reholstering that carrying cocked and lock with no thumb break/retention strap.

Some training courses recommend against/won't allow retention straps for this reason.

Your shop owner is a moron. On another level, I would not carry a gun unless it was dangerous to somone.

Call Ron at Tucker I thought they would make a thumb snap for 1911. I do think it is special order, but I could be wrong. the HK1 is a great design....sorry if I gave you wrong info..

I continue to make thumb-break holsters set up for cocked-and-locked carry. Only when a customer specifically requests hammer-down carry do I make holsters for SA autos that way.

As an earlier poster noted, one-handed reholstering of the weapon is far more difficult with a thumb-break retention.

I have one holster that I made for myself years ago with thumb-break, but instead of extending the leather up as a retention strap on the front side I mounted a strap and snap (like the old strap-style retainers). When the thumb-break is released, the strap simply rotates down and out of the way. Improved re-holstering for sure, and a little less resistance on the draw.

Maybe I should put that feature back into my current production? Have to think about that.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

I think that's a very good idea. You would be the only one that I know that offers something like that.

Lobo, I am more concerned with retaining the gun in the holster (so it can't fall out or be snatched out easily) and unholstering the weapon than reholstering. I figure that unholstering occurs under stress, while reholstering implies that the stress has passed and you can take your time.
I will google to see if you have a website.
Thanks!

The Pistol Pocket should not have the pistol pointing at your goodies; I have one, and it is designed for Cocked n locked. As I keep losing weight, it may become a viable options again.

That said, the 1911 pattern pistol is designed to be carried cocked and locked. Any other path is unsafe and unwise. And find another gun shop to patronize. That guy is a dullard of the first class, and there is no telling what other mindless drivel he has spouted at you and others.

As for holster makers not wanting to make holsters other than those which force hammer down carry, they are actually forcing an unsafe practice on you, and might even be making their liability posture worse.

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NHI, 10-8.

Browning Hi Powers came with a "safe system" or some such name for it not too long ago. This conversion was also offered for other guns by someone or another. This allowed safe hammer down carry on a live round.

Anyway, with a 1911, even if you accidntally flip the safety off and the trigger somehow gets pulled, it still isn't going to go off in the holster unless the grip safety is also activated.

Other than in a Miami Classic shoulder rig, I always carried cocked and locked autos in open top holsters.

Don't take this the wrong way but, are you new at concealed carry?

This concern about retaining the gun in the holster against intentional grabs and accidentally slipping out are typical of people new to this.

If you are going to conceal the gun, the retention built into boned (aka molded to the shape of the gun) holsters made of both kydex and leather is more than enough to keep the gun in during the most strenous of exertions. I have proved this to my satisfaction with all of my holsters, both worn inside and outside the waist.

If you are concealing the gun, and you are not a peace officer, the chances of someone trying to grab your gun out of the holster are so infinitesimally small that they are not even on my radar.

If you are a peace officer working in plain clothes, I can see the need for retention since you are actively going to look for trouble (comes with the job description). Otherwise, there are better things to worry about.

A quality M1911 does not need a leather strap between the hammer and firing pin to be safe. If yours does, then get it fixed or get rid of it.

IMO, you are needlessly complicating your holster search.

The only holster I've had with a retention strap was given to me. I found it to be a PITA and cut it off. The holster itself retains my pistol just fine without it. All a retention strap does is get in the way when drawing and reholstering IMO. As far as gun grabs go ...... the BG shouldn't even have a clue it's there until it's pointed at him.

About what Wyatt Earp said. BTW, the Para, like Series 80 Colts, has a firing pin safety that works. That thing isn't "going off" unless you pull the trigger, and that's after the grip safety is actuated and the thumb safety flipped to "off." If you won't carry a cocked and locked Para or Series 80, you need to get a revolver, and a holster with a strap over the hammer, and carry the cartridge in your pocket.

I'll bet it took them two hands to do it, too. Not so smart.

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Formerly Model520Fan

....or an older Bianchi belt holster, made before their lawyers redesigned their holsters.
Maybe I have not been specific enough. I do not mind the weapon being visible. Complete concealment is not my objective with the Para Ordnance. For truly concealed carry (nobody can see it, ever) I carry a Model 642.

Why take a chance to save less than a second of time?

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Life happens while your making other plans

After reading some of these replies and thinking about it, I am seriously considering switching from a .45 auto to a .45 or .357 revolver as an open carry gun. I shoot my revolvers better than my autos, anyhow. And they are simpler for me. Draw, point, shoot. I shoot double action and don't need to cock the gun.
My main candidates are a 4" S&W mountain gun or a 4" Ruger GP100. I also have a 4" Redhawk and it is a sweet gun but weighs 46 ounces. This will also simplify holster options. The Para will probably end up on Gunbroker.
Thanks all for your input.

As long as the "Thumb Safety" has been properly fitted - many of them aren't - then you'll be carrying the gun the way John Browning designed it to be carried.

Perhaps, because you most likely only have about 2 seconds to begin with?

And lets see? In one second???? How important?
I make that about 1/8 of a mile @ .45ACP velocities.

We old IPSiCcers learned long ago just how LOOOONG a second can be. Can't do it anymore, but when I was shooting a lot, I could do Bill Drills easily at 7 yards with all A-hits. For the uninitiated, that's 6 shots, from an audible signal, from the holster, in 2 seconds. Of course, that was with a race gun and a race holster, not concealed, but with 180 power factor ammo. A second is for-frickin-ever when someone is trying to cut or shoot you or beat you with a length of chain.

Well you might want to look at it another way. In your car at 60mph you're traveling 88 feet per second and at 120mph you're going twice that far!!!

Think about that the next time you take your eyes off the Road to adjust the radio in your car!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by andyo5:
The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons). [QUOTE]
The only true way to be safe is to carry the gun unloaded and disassembled with the ammunition locked in a safe having an unknown combination. Now that's safe. No further comment.

[quote]Originally posted by ArgMauser:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andyo5:
The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons). Until you need it for self defense. There is no perfect way. We live in a fallen world.

For many years the Coast Guard required us to carry hammer down on an empty chamber while doing boardings. Chambering a round was considered to be a warning shot - as was chambering a round of 00 buckshot in a shotgun. We practiced drawing, chambering, then firing at the range. I never liked it.

Off-duty, today, I almost exclusively carry some 1911 ranging from a ParaOrd C6.45LDA, Colt New Agent, one of two Colt Combat Commanders, and numerous full-sized Colts, Sig, Taurus, or Rock Islands. Two days ago I bought a S&W 1911PD. Yesterday I went to the range with it; it is now my primary off-duty gun; I will continue to break it in but I see nothing but getting better with this gun.

In my opinion, when carrying cocked and locked I feel very comfortable and safe. In order for my 1911s to shoot the following has to happen (barring any unforseen catastrophic mechanical failures)...I have to draw the gun from its holster, firmly grip it to disengage the grip safety, disengage the slide lock safety, and squeeze the trigger - all while aiming in on the target. That's 5 functions I have to do - the "older" Texas Rangers used to deliberately defeat the grip safety by taking a piece of rawhide, string, or something else (shoe lace) and tying the grip safety down so it was disengaged all the time. I don't recall any of them shooting themselves with their Colt 1911s.

I am responsible for what my gun does; in over 45 years of shooting I have had 2 negligent discharges; both my fault and not due to the material condition of the gun. Being cocked and locked had nothing to do with it; all 4 of the above mentioned steps took place prior to me pulling the trigger. Stay safe out there...

As long as all of the pistols parts are fitted correctly it is perfectly safe. A lot safer then a Glock that is carried cocked and no real safety, a baboon could get a hold of a Glock and empty the magazine, all that is needed is a pull of the trigger. The reason most people are scared of a cocked and locked 1911 is because they can actually see the hammer, all the working parts on Glock type pistols are hidden but does not make them safer.

J.B.

I think if you have to ask you probably shouldn't carry the 1911 as your carry gun.

Not carrying cocked and locked will definitely take a precious second to get it into operating condition. Carrying coked and locked and not shooting it regularly from your carry condition will almost certainly have detrimental results.

I've seen countless people at the range draw a 1911 from the holster and try to squeeze off a round while the thumb safety was still engaged.
Add stress to the mix and your are asking for failure. JMHO

Bingo. With a properly fitted and assembled 1911, the gun will not fire even with the thumb safety off unless the grip safety is depressed. This is MUCH safer than a Glock, which has no manual safety and is, basically, cocked and unlocked when a round is chambered.

Bub

Carried a cocked and locked early Colt 1911 in my waistband w/o a holster as a back-up to my M16 in Vietnam 1968-1969. Neverhad a problem. IMHO-Don't use a holster with a snap or strap that intereferes with the removal of the weapon. while you are fumbling with your holster some bad guy could pop a cap on you ! one eye joe

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Take a chance on what, exactly, happening?

I believe it was called the "Fast Action" system. I almost bought one when CDNN was practically giving them away.

Daewoo has/had a similar system. My best friend's wife (who's Korean) has one. Decent gun and a decent system.

I believe that Para Ordinance has something similar, "Light Double Action", I think.

If you're carrying an M1911 and you're not carrying it cocked and locked, you should probably be carrying something else. I've got zero interest in trying to chamber a round while somebody I need to shoot has hold of one of my arms. I've seen people in internet fora claim that you can chamber with one hand. None of them explains how you can do this while you're wrestling with somebody hitting you with a claw hammer or stabbing you with a steak knife.

Any gun that's 100% "safe" isn't of any use for its alleged purpose, about as relevant as non-flammable gasoline or a circular saw that won't cut anything.

Unless they're in fires or are shot so much in a short period of time that they might as well be, properly designed guns in proper working condition just don't "go off". Somebody or something has to work the firing mechanism.

Unless you're planning to carry a Japanese Type 94,
if your gun goes off, it's because you pulled the trigger or allowed some other instrumentality to pull the trigger. And with an M1911, that means deactivate the thumb safety and activate the grip safety BEFORE the trigger is pulled.

As far as the gunshop owner goes, a "safe" gun can't accomplish its task, namely stopping a lethal force attack by using lethal force. I don't know if he was being a dolt, being cryptic, or what, but he's not going to have to pay the piper if you get up close and personal with somebody who grabs your left arm when you're carrying a semi-auto with an empty chamber and tries to beat, stab or shoot you.

May all images of that accursed device be forever and always banned!