When I purchased my first handgun back in 1979 I actually went to the store with the intentions of purchasing a Hi Standard .22 Auto target Pistol - the Citation, Trophy, Supermatic or whichever exact model I liked best. I had heard only great things about them including how incredible the trigger was, how accurate they are, how well built they were and how easy the takedown for cleaning is.

So I get to the store and the manager brings out 3 different models which were all very similar. I handled them and immediately was turned off with two things that were very important to me. First and foremost was the fact that the slide release was on the right side of the gun - opposite 98% of the guns I ave ever handled. Since I am right handed it was quite awkward to me. The other thing that I did not like was the magazine release was on the bottom of the mag well and again, very awkward to me.

After the sales manager saw me unhappy with the controls he said I am getting a model that you will really like - and with that he brought out a S&W model 41 which I would up taking home and have 'till this day. I do love my M 41 and it has been trouble free and spot-on for 36 years but this evening I brought it to the Range for some .22 shooting and my buddy brought along his Hi Standard from the 1960's. After shooting 50 rounds through my M41 he said "wanna try mine"? I said SURE and loaded up his Hi Std. It shot perfectly, had an incredible trigger (felt like sub 2 lbs) and I shot it better than I have ever shot my M41! I actually would have posted the target but I chucked it - frustrated. 9 out of 10 shots were in the X ring at 50 feet and the group was under 3/4". I can honestly say I do not remember a group like that at 50 feet and 9X ring shots with the 10th in the 10 ring with my M41.

As incredible as it was, I still can not get over the backwards or awkward controls. If ONLY they had built it with controls I could like, I would run out and get one today! Nothing against my M41, but I just shot that Hi Std. like no other .22 pistol I have ever shot! WHY WHY WHY did they do that? If I ever ran into the designer I'd give him a piece of my mind! Anybody else here feel similar?

I was on the UNR Rifle Team, but we also had a group of 5 ea. Colt Match Target Woodsman. So, we team members once a week had an informal pistol match using the Colts. I then went out and purchased a High Standard Supermatic Trophy and shot a few town league pistol matches with it and hunted a heck of a lot of Jack Rabbits too. I have never shot a M 41, so have no direct comparison there. I can say that IMHO, the Supermatic Trophy would outshoot any of the School's Colt Match Target Woodsmans. ...............

Big Cholla - after shooting one last night - I do not doubt you......

Never shot a 41. It's probably best I don't, then I'd have to go buy one.

I do love the Citation, though.

I do still think the world of my M41 but I outshot it with the H. Std. yesterday and the H. Std. did feel great in my hands - but the controls........

I always assumed that their popularity for Bullseye use was the reason. They were often fitted with those massive sculptured target grips. Having to work around a slide and a magazine release when making those grips would have been a pain.

For Bullseye use those two features are not necessary and if so equipped would just have made life more difficult when fitting grips.

One nice thing about the mag release is you can maintain your grip and change magazines with just your left hand. It's also very positive. You won't take an alibi because you accidentally dropped your mag. Ever.

Mag release on the bottom is no big deal for a target pistol where you are not concerned with how long it takes to change you magazine.

Likewise, when I first started bullseye shooting back in the late 60's I was taught to release the slide by pulling the slide back. I believe the slide hold open was intended as just that, a slide hold open for after the last shot and not necessarily as a slide release, but again, not an big issue with a bullseye pistol.

Still have my HS Citation but the thing that sill drives me nuts is having to tune the magazine for different ammo brands these days.

My late father had a Hi-Std. Field King. I borrowed it once when I went to visit a friend while we on leave from the USAF. He lived near a wooded area where we hunted doves (with shotguns) in a field. I shot only a lizard with the .22. Gave a coral snake a pass, as it wasn't an urgent threat. I felt bad about the lizard in retrospect. I just wanted to see if I could hit it. The bullet flipped it several feet and I had to look hard to find the body. I have no idea what became of my dad's guns. His second wife probably sold them. He did give me a Winchester 77 a couple or three years before he died.

I fired both Hi-Standard and S&W M-41's in the USAF and think the M-41 shot best for me. May vary with the gun, the ammo, and the shooter. The M-41's had the 5.5 inch heavy barrel. Some Rugers had the 6 and 7/8th's inch bbl . and shot well

I had a couple of Colt Match Target Woodsman .22's. They shot well, but not as well as the Ruger with 5.5-inch bull barrel or the Hi-Std. and M-41.

For dedicated target pistols, ergonomics is probably not as important a consideration as is it's intended purpose; putting a hole in the middle of a piece of paper.
I don't think any of the .22 target pistols have such great ergonomics if you are going to use them for anything else but bullseye shooting.
I for one wouldn't want to carry a chambered model 41 hunting, for example.

To the point of the OP, I've got 'em all, a HS Trophy and HS Victor both made in the 70's (I bought one new and one as-new but from the original owner), and I bought a brand new Model 41 w/5" bull barrel in the late 70's as well.
I find that they are all on par with each other for accuracy, but I prefer the "shooting feel" of the Victor best on which I have installed an LSP Match Barrel (alum sleeved) so that I could mount a red dot on it without modding the original barrel.

My only "complaint" is with the HS Trophy (I can't really call it a complaint, just a point of interest) is that I have to grab the slide underneath the overhang of the sight ramp instead of just putting my hand on top and cycling which is easier with the Victor.

The 41 is special, though. It does have a different feel than the HS's, not better, just different, and I do like the original grips on it because unlike most other pistols that you "hold", or "grip", I feel more like I'm "wearing" the Model 41 when shooting it. That's just a personal observation, not a rating.
Getting older, I have been putting red dots on more and more of my target pistols, and the 41 is not different. Like the Victor, I didn't want to modify the original slide to install a red dot, so I bought a new S&W slide that was made more recently so it came with the holes for a sight pre-drilled unlike my original that had no such provision.

I am glad to hear people who don't like the old High Standards, though. That leaves more for the rest of us.

Back in the early 80's I had to have a Mod 41, and when one finally showed up at my LGS, I traded my K22 off towards it. I did O.K. with it and read a lot about the H.S. My LGS got in a slightly used H.S Victor and I fell in love with it. I talked my LGS into letting me take it and my 41 out for a side by side test. I wound up trading my 41 for the Victor. Over the next 35 years, I have owned 3 Mod 41's, but they always get sold or traded off, but I am still shooting that H.S. Victor.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I have a Victor that I bought in 1979 or so from the original owner. I mostly used it in IHMSA .22 matches. I liked that the grip is very similar to that of a 1911.

It's become unreliable in feeding a round from the magazine, and I bought new springs for it. After seeing what was involved in changing them, I started looking for a gunsmith. Most don't seem to know much about them.

I found a retired 'smith who knows them from working on them when he was in the Army. He said that they're not only tricky to take apart and re-assemble, but you have to remove and replace pins in a particular order. Now if I can just get in touch with him on a day when he feels like working....

I have a Supermatic Trophy, an old S-101 Supermatic with the barrel ports, and a M41. Usually, but not always, the High Standards turn out a smaller group than the M41. None of them are going anywhere, they'll all too fun to shoot.

When I was in the service, I shot on an Army pistol team with an arms-room-issued Ruger MkI - it had no hold-open device at all. I envied those who could afford the Hi-Std. "space guns."

In later years, I acquired a couple of them, and found them superb. The slide release on the right and the mag release on the bottom was of no consequence on a purely target gun. The main thing is that both of these were extremely accurate. Interestingly, the shorter-barreled 6.75" job with the rear sight on the slide has a longer sight radius than the 8" with the rear sight mounted on the barrel. It was preferred by those in the know for this reason.





Here's the way they were shipped from the factory - I lucked into this "kit" when I bought the first one.



I then purchased a Model 41 - a great target arm with all the bells and whistles and the controls in the "proper" places. Still, I could not see that it gave me an edge over the Hi-Standards. It could also be somewhat finicky about ammo as far as functioning was concerned. The space guns would digest about anything. With both brands of course, it's always good to test out various rounds for best accuracy in a particular gun.



It's rare that you will see a space gun up for sale - their owners tend to hang on to them because they are the next best thing to lasers for tearing up an x-ring.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

A Hi-Standard was the first handgun I ever shot. The factory hair trigger was extremely light. Never noticed the ergonomic deficiencies.

Interesting to hear the comments on the slide stop (release) and magazine release locations.

I had the opportunity to choose between a High Standard Trophy or S&W Mod 41 from a small stocking FFL when I first got into Bullseye shooting in the early 80's. I actually preferred the High Standard!

As far as the slide stop being on the "wrong side", in 30+ years of shooting I've never released a semi-auto slide with my thumb, I've always pulled back on the slide and released it that way. That's also how I teach students in my NRA Pistol classes. One advantage of that technique is that you never need to "find" the slide stop on different brand semi-auto's, they all have a way to grab the slide!

As far as the magazine release location, I never found it a bother since my hand was always under the magazine to catch it when being released anyway.

Now, if I was playing "run and gun" shooting games where loading/unloading was done on the clock, I might find the above features sub-optimal. But certainly not for NRA Bullseye shooting.

Just goes to show you............different strokes...........

Lou

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NRA Certified Instructor & RSO

I have a model 46 and a High Standard HDM.
I prefer the grip angle of the HS.
The 46 had a better trigger.
Both of them are more accurate than me.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I had the poor mans target .22 it was the Sharpshooter. Gun at best was considered semi target!

I used that in many 50' indoor matches back in the early 70s when I first got my state authorization to be able to own a hand gun. Gun shot well, much better than many guns much more in price, that includes other "better" Hi Standards! Control locations were not a problem, never gave it a thought

Gun tought me a lot and I went into 3gun for a while till I just plain got bored shooting that course of fire. Went into the much more exiting PPC and since then have hardly fired the Sharpshooter. At the rate that my safe is filling up might have to do some releases. If I do best bet that gun will go up for sale.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

I collect S&W 41s (and 46s, 41-1s and 52s). Have a few HS Victors (basically Hamden). For shooting, like many here, I prefer the 5.5" Victor over the 5.5" 41. Primarily the grip angle. Both have good triggers and well above my accuracy potential. Both balance well and have excellent sights. With reasonable maintenance and good ammo (CCI std. vel.), both are highly reliable.

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TOMBECK

Hi standard magazines do deform at the lips. You can reform them Yourself. Rear lips ID is .185 and front lips ID is .230. Quite simple to do.

I have both right and left hand stocks and also the shorter bull barrel. This is the same model that I shot while on the pistol team in college thirty years ago. An absolutely wonderful gun to hold and shoot. I think it is hard to beat a High Standard Supermatic Citation.

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That's because there's no such thing as a bad color on a good horse.

To the OP, I completely understand your frustration. Frankly, after many years of competitive bullseye, I have come to realize the poor ergonomics of the 41, at least for me. As opposed to post #9, by ergonomics I mean grip angle, trigger reach, bore line over grips, grip frame shape, etc. In other words, the 41 just plain doesn't fit my hand. I had to practice and practice to keep my scores up, and then would shoot better with just about anything else I'd pick up! Others like it.... great! Freedom of choice, and all that! High Standards are nice (should I say "were" nice!), especially with the choice of grip angles. Personally, I found the Colt Woodsman Match Target even nicer feeling. It served me well competitively. But, if you really want the best you need to go with the European target pistols. The Hammerli 208/208s is in a class of it's own. Superlative in every meaning of the word. If you want something more contemporary, Pardini is ruling the winners circle nationally and internationally.

Here's the very first handgun I ever owned. I bought it,well my Dad bought it for me, around 60 years ago. I have other Hi-Standards but this one will pass down through the family.
Jim

never say never

Play with that HS a few more times and get used to the controls.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Or go with a "Letter Model" as the controls are like a 1911's

I've got a Hi-Standard "B", still the best pistol I've ever shot...
unbelievably precise when I do my part

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

I love my HS Citation. I have two 7 1/2" fluted barrels. One with a barrel weight and one without. I just accept the controls. It is not a combat arm so the reversed slide release is a non issue for me. Why did they do it? I personally don't care. I just shoot the gun. I use standard velocity ammo only. It really likes CCI Standard and Federal Gold Medal Match. I find that the magazines work best if cleaned and lightly lubricated regularly.

At one time I played around with shooting Olympic Rapid Fire (back in the days when the .22 Short was the standard ORF caliber). Today it is the .22 LR. In any event, I bought a nearly new Hi-Standard Olympic model, and I still have it and still shoot it - in fact I did that this week. It never bothered me in the least that the slide release was on the right side and the magazine release was on the butt, as I wasn't doing any combat shooting with it. I have no idea how many thousands of rounds I have put through it, but I don't remember ever having a malfunction of any kind (except for a few dud rounds). Back when I was a Bullseye shooter, I used a Colt Woodsman Match Target (actually two of them, both postwar) for the .22 stage. I eventually sold both, but still wish I had hung onto at least one of them. I don't believe there was ever a finer production .22 target pistol made than the Match Woodsman. I eventually got to the point where my performance peaked, but not at the point that I was winning many matches, so I gave it up.

I had a beautiful Victor in the 80s that I sold primarily due to the slide release. Dumb! Have a Citation now that I enjoy shooting and have learned to live with the starboard release since is all target shooting, not field work or bunny hunting. Have a M41 and like both. Figure having two nice 22s will keep the kids from fighting when they are shoveling dirt on my coffin.

In the summer of 1954, I bought a Hi Standard Supermatic, S-101. This had the muzzle brake orfices on either side fo the front sight. I shot it on a college team for one year and an army team for one year. Then I traded it for the S&W Model 41 shown. The 41 seemed to fit my hand better and my scores went up about 7 points over the 300 point National Match Course. I still regretted the old Hi Standard, and when I found one at a gun show a few yeas ago, it went home wih me. Both are a lot more accurate than I am, but I can still shoot the 41 a little better than I can the Hi Standard. In all that shooting I never had a brand of ammo that was unreliable in eiher pistol. As for the ergonomics: the Hi Standard was my first real pistol, and I didn't know that the slide release was on the wrong side, so I had no trouble with it or the magazine release.

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Thanks for the info! I'll see what mine measure.

Magazine trouble was my first suspicion, since the cartridge often hits the back of the barrel above the chamber. A replacement mag didn't fix it.

There are also failures to completely eject, with a fired case caught in a sideways "smokestack". This is the problem that made me suspect the springs.

-Mark

It would be hard to reach the slide release past the big thumb shelf on the grips. IMO, it's easy to reach the release with your index finger, and it's a lot stronger than your thumb.

Watch the safety release. Bend your thumb and press it with the pad. If you use the thumb joint, like with a 1911, you'll pinch your thumb against the grip so bad you'll never wittingly do it again.

After shooting thousands of rounds with mine in the 60's, I never had an FTE. With the dirty white and yellow box ammunition, I'm lucky to get two shots in a row to eject. CCI is about the only ammo that works.

New spring come in handy every 20-30 years
See how much less springy you are after a couple decades

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Last summer I shot several thousand rounds through my Victor and Mod 41 at 88 yards using what ever ammo I could get and comparing the two pistols.

I found they have their preferences as to ammo but when each has their favorite ammo there is no significant difference between the two as far as long range practice is concerned.

The are both great, it is ok if we have our preferences.

I have both the HS 106 and a Model 41. I do slightly better with the 41, plus the firing pin channel / firing pin clearance is so close on the HS I have to clean it out every 75 rounds or so or I get failures to fire. Nobody wants that dreaded 'click' during a timed stage. Thus, the 41 is the 'go to' pistol for target shooting, and it's WAY more accurate than I am, so I always have an opportunity to improve. I don't think I'll ever completely master the 41 in my lifetime, although I enjoy trying.

A few years back I bought one of the old Soviet TOZ 35Ms that CDNN was offering at a great price. Although the TOZ is obviously not used in the same discipline as the 41, shooting that TOZ is way up on a whole new plane. It's really, really hard to shoot, but when you do get it right it will put the venerable 41 to shame as far as flat-out accuracy is concerned. It will, however, WEAR YOU OUT, and anybody who has shot a box of shells through one probably knows what I'm talking about. The TOZ has given me a whole new respect for those superhumans who shoot the 50m Free Pistol course of fire.

I own both HS and the M41 and I find the HS is more accurate by a bit--but that may be because it's heavier. I hate the rear sight stirrup on the HS and it's VERY awkward (and painful) to retract the slide reaching around it.

One negative issue with the HS number series is their propensity for frame cracks when HV ammo is used extensively; this problem is not shared by the M41 or the letter-series HS guns. Something to check when buying a used one.

I also have an old Walther Olympia, and while it's just barely a "target" gun, acquits itself very well at the range.

When I was very young my Dad traded into a couple of HS Military ones with the hammer and said one was mine. Thrilled would not begin to describe it. Under his supervision and help I shot it.
In love would not describe it. I was 5.

A short time later both were traded for a Browning Sweet 16 which went for something else.

I think my mother did not like pistols and ragged him about them. Some years later he bought a 60's Ruger single six and I now have it. It brought home too many squirrels to count, rabbits and lots of farm pond bullfrogs.

My uncle had a HS Sport King 6" wow, it is very accurate and nice. I tried to buy it and it was not for sale. One day he said come by the house and he gave it to me.

The Ruger is a super hunting or plinking gun. But everyone who has shot my HS Sport King circa 1950 absolutely loves it.

I guess due to the area I never saw any of the target model HS pistols. A guy brought one into a gun pawn shop and wanted to pawn it, he was low balled and the owner tried to lowball buy it. I left as the guy was packing it back up. A wood box with extra bbls, 22 LR and 33 short stuff, weights. I liked what I saw. AS the guy was getting into his car next to me I asked if he would sell it at a fair price and he said nope just needed gas money to visit realtives for xmas.

I had seen pictures, read about them and after seeing one wanted one. Small area, no gun shows, if I would have known what one could find at gun shows in STL, KC or Tulsa my financial life could have been ruined much earlier.

Here's a military grade Sharpshooter, pretty accurate for one of their cheaper models. Surprisingly eats most anything. I later found out standard velocity 22s are recommended for Hi Standards.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

When I was in my Auto pistol phase, I had 41 & 46, Colt woodsman match, several different HS, Browning O. Medalist
and 1/2 dozen foreign jobs. The Browning was strictly a range
gun, but I could shoot it better than any of the others. At the
time the Ruger m1 target was only one in the line. It didn't hold
a candle to the others. At least in my hands.

Recutting the extractor seems to have fixed the failures to eject. No failures to feed so far, so maybe the 'smith made some adjustment to the magazine, too. He said the springs still seemed strong. Good thing, as the ones I bought from Numrich didn't fit.
-Mark

The only way to fly with Bullseye...

Definitely not a field or CCW gun......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446