I prefer single stack autos for full size pistols. I carry my S&W 539 9mm and now my Ruger p90 .45, both 8shot single stacks.

I've noticed that full size service pistols have mostly become double stacks. Hi-capacity is the norm.

Back in the 80s and 90s, single stack 9mm pistols were the universal choices for anti-terrorism sidearms in Germany. The NJSP carried the P7M8 for 15 years, and many LE departments issued the SIG p220 8 shot .45.

Seems today 12 rounds is minimum, and 17-19 rounds common. To be honest, the new double stacks are quite ergonomic.

I'll still carry my full sized single stack 9 and 45; but I wonder if they are becoming obsolete in general? Thoughts?

Attached Images

IMG_4208.jpg (74.6 KB, 120 views)

If you mean, do any major law enforcement entities still carry single stacks as being obsolete, then yes they are. There are too many superior semi-autos out there that are double stack guns. They are lighter, more reliable, easier to shoot, easier to maintain and more accurate. In a serious encounter, one cannot have too much ammo.

Definitely not. There are some people, perhaps many, that can manage a single-stack pistol quite well but do to the physical size of their hands can not manage a double-stack pistol. Any reasonable person will tell you that eight or nine shots in a weapon that fits your hand and you can shoot well are better than 15 or16 shots in a pistol that you can not shoot well.

I guess that it all depends on the mission. I have both single and double stacks. I will very seldom carry a double stack IWB preferring to carry them OWB. Plus ergonomics come into play depending on the size of a persons hands. I think that you will always have both available. Of course, now am getting to really enjoy the older revolvers.

Kahr makes single stack service pistols, there are also 1911 in alloy frames.

The CZ is a good double stack choice for smaller hands. The grip is very ergo for a double stack, and carrying cocked, and locked helps with trigger reach. My petite wife carries a Witness Pavona cocked, and locked. Though she carries it OC, but when she wears a sweater it disappears even in a OWB holster.

its not a service pistol, but im back to a 9mm colt combat commander for edc... 10 plus 1, plus 2 spare 10 rounders. if i need more, ill run for cover and call for help!

__________________
why? why not?

Spare magazines come in handy.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

To answer the original question, I would say yes. Except for perhaps .45's, the troops want lotsa ammo on board. I've carried a single stack as a duty weapon and would do so again without hesitation.

While it's true that you can't have too much ammo in a gunfight, I'm more concerned about running out of time before I run out of ammo. A single stack fits my hand better which means I can shoot it more accurately. Starting with 17 rounds in the gun mean nothing if I miss and get killed with 12 rounds left in the gun.

Well if you're carrying something as large why not take advantage of it and carry more ammo? I understand the argument with pocket guns but full size and weight may as well. I use single stack guns mostly when its not possible to conceal a double stack.

I have both. Sig 220 and 226. Same size, weight so why not put more ammo into the same space especially when it's been shown that on the street there isn't much difference between the two.

I don't live in the 80s. I live today, when idiots have no problem shooting up a city bus with an AKs because someone was "disrespected".


VIDEO - Gunmen shooting into a Philadelphia Septa Bus | 2 Video Newscasts FoxPhillyNews - YouTube

Then you have all the other freaks. Anyone read about the gunman stopped in Phoenix today? He went to a convention center with multiple guns and a bulletproof vest to kill people and cops. Luckily no one was harmed and he was arrested before he could do anything.
And let's not forget the ISIS freaks.

I do like old guns and own a few but I also like 57 chevys and Ferrari and Cobras but I drive a Corolla. It's about Practicality. Overall I don't see an advantage of carrying something as big and heavy and limit the ammo

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

This is a sound argument. It's partly why I started this thread.

There are very good reasons to carry a double stack over a single stack of the same description.

The CZ75 Compact/PCR double stack has a very ergonomic grip. And it is virtually the same size as my Sig P6 single stack. Both work well as concealed carry arms.

Not to the people that like them. Reading threads you'll see that some only want single stack pistols.

I love my Smith 3913/14/NL with 8+1 for concealed carry ....... or my Beretta 92-M single stack ....... each with more than enough rounds for just about anything I will face on a day to day basis.....................

but a 6906 at 12+1 is the same size as a 39xx just a slightly fatter butt....or a Beretta 92 Centurion or Compact at 17 or 13 +1..........in a slightly bigger package.........................

I have all 4 ......... most days 8+1 plus a spare mag is GTG in the "Burbs of the Burgh" .................. these days........more rounds in a very slightly larger package.......... well......its a strange, strange world we live in Master Jack!!!!!

How many rounds you have mean nothing unless you can hit the intended target!

Here is what happen just a mile from where I live 5 years ago.
Two Sheriff's Deputies Shot in North Spokane; Suspect is Dead - KULR8.com | Local News, Weather & Sports | Billings, MT

The deputies had Glock 40 caliber pistols that held 14 rounds and both went through a magazine with out hitting the BG but he hit them several times...

__________________
Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

With double-stacks, one size does not fit all, as has been stated. I have medium-large hands and have owned a few, and have had my mitts on many others. The only double-stacks that are comfortable to me are Browning HPs and their clones, primarily because they are SA and don't require the extra reach of a DA first shot. And the big bonus is that they are the most natural point-shooters I've ever fired. Single-stack 1911s and I also get along reallllyyy well.

God forbid that I'd ever need to use the 14 rounds out of a Hi Power, plus two mag changes... Spray and pray during the Zombie Apocalypse?

Unless you have a uniform on and are certain that you'll be returning incoming, send that script to Hollywood. They'll believe pretty much anything.

The "need" for all that firepower sounds like "Sidewalk Commando" stuff to me. My imagination runs toward the more realistic scenario. Single-stacks are far from being dead or obsolete. I believe in insurance, but I don't need the entire corporate staff with me.

----------------------

"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

Yes, by definition, regardless of how well one might handle them. The same thing happened to revolvers and BP guns, even though a good hand can do a fair job with a BP revolver. A total neophyte with a 21+1 round Sig P320 X5 wouldn't last long in a fight with Wild Bill Hickok.

It's true that compact revolvers and single-stack autos are immensely popular as back-up guns or for concealed carry, but for the service gun role they've been replaced by tools better suited to the task.

__________________
TEAM DNF

Is the single stack service pistol obsolete?
Not as long as there's still a 1911.

I live in California, nuff said.

Single stack one size doesn't fit all either. A Sig P220 feels much better than the little thin grips of a Kahr.

Hollywood fantasy works both ways. People think that if they have less ammo they'll magically have some some steel nerves as they slowly take aim while bullets fly all around them. And that for some reason more ammo means your automatically spray and pray. I know that I want to carry more ammo because the first 10 or so rounds I want to shoot wildly into the air. Finally when I'm down to maybe 2 rounds that's when I'll start to take it seriously and actually aim. By that same logic if I buy a single shot I'll never miss. If you buy a single shot you'll never miss and your target will drop dead before the bullet even hits!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I think the average CCW or homeowner is well-served by a single stack pistol as in most instances, thugs will flee upon encountering armed resistance. Start shooting fleeing felons in the back and you'll likely face grave legal consequences.

Police officers, on the other hand, sometimes face the phenomena of an individual bent on "suicide-by-cop" and who hopes to take a few cops with him. They are also more likely to face multiple adversaries. I highly recommend that you read up on the 1986 FBI Miami shootout as well as the Newhall (CA) incident of the early 70s.

But the common denominator is that regardless of capacity, you must be proficient enough to make your first rounds count. Officers have indeed emptied an entire hi-cap magazine without a single hit.

Technology is a wonderful thing and it affects the firearms industry just like everything else.

Clinging to obsolete technology for nostalgic reasons is fine but anyone who believes a large, heavy, handgun with limited capacity is somehow as good as or better than something smaller, lighter, and with more capacity is only kidding themselves.

If it weren't for technology we'd all be driving cars that get ten miles per gallon, making calls with the rotary dial phone hooked to the land line at our house and watching Andy Griffin on a large, heavy television with a really small screen with a bad picture.

Obsolete? In reference to what? For collectors no gun is ever obsolete. For those who were issued a certain weapon, no matter the climate of current events it never becomes obsolete to them I reckon.

As far as 8 nor 9 rounds being enough....maybe....maybe not. In human combat magazine capacity has always been an important issue. The fastest magazine change is the one you don't need to make. All things being equal, that's reason enough for me to choose a handgun that holds as many rounds as possible in a single magazine. But for me, I don't choose my off duty carry based on nostalgia or any other issue beyond form and function. Sometimes, for me that means a 5 shot J frame in my front pocket or a double stacked auto appendix carried inside my waistband....but never a single stacked auto, although I do own one. As always, YMMV.

There are a lot of answers to various questions on this thread.

To answer the OPs specific question: Yes.

__________________
Because of the metric system?

Service pistols? My answer is that single stack pistols are rare but not obsolete.

When I started my LE career in '90, my dept let us choose between 3 guns. Smith 5903, 3906 or the 4506. IIRC all but one female recruit chose the 3906. A majority of the males chose the 5903. A handful or two chose the 45. I chose that gun because after trying all 3, I shot it the best and it fit my hand better. Likewise with the female officers.

Only fairly recently did they finally "retire" all those to switch over to the Glock 17 Gen 4. I would not hesitate to strap on that old "obsolete" Smith 45 (8+1) to return to service.

For me the true advance in service weapons has been the proliferation of depts authorizing the issue of AR carbines for officer's use. The 870 was (and is) a fine option. A centerfire rifle opens up far more options than worrying about how many rounds fit into a single magazine.

YMMV.

OP asked if single stacks were "obsolete in general?"

Have to disagree with Pete...... my choice of gun is purpose driven.... and based on risk assessment.

Here on my end of the "Burbs of the Burgh" the risk is low and my purpose/choice is for comfortable concealed carry.........my single stack 39xx 's and an extra magazine or two meet my needs and .....IMHO are not obsolete.

Now if I've got the option of open carry or I'm an officer/LEO.....in all likelihood I'd opt for a 69xx at minimum..... or a 915, 59xx series or my Beretta Centurion w/ 17+1 and a spare "or 2", 18 or 20 rd magazine(s)

You have to look who is using the pistol to answer the question. If we are talking about LEO then yes, except for a few highly specialized groups who choose mission oriented gear. Capacity is king these days and the terminal ballistics between 9mm and 45 ACP, thinking 1911 or Sig P220 here, are too small to justify fielding a duty weapon with lower capacity. For LEO the pistol is a primary weapon.

In the Military the Marines have purchased a bunch Colts 1911s but you have to remember that the pistol is a backup to a backup and not a primary weapon for these guys so capacity does not necessarily win the day. However on the larger front the Army is getting standard capacity 9mm Sig P320s so even within out military the double stack is winning.

One of the huge changes pushing double stacks is the prevalence of striker fired pistols and better ergonomics. Older DA/SA double stacks had longer trigger reaches. With a striker the trigger pulls does not have to be as long and the reset is shorter. You can make a "double action" gun with the reach and feel of a "single action" gun cutting down the length of pull.

Old steel and alum pistols with unchangeable backstraps made it harder to fit double stacks into a wide range of hands. With modular pistols with interchangeable back straps, short reach triggers many more shooters can be accommodated with todays double stack pistols. Look at the P320, Glock gen 4, XD etc... all have ways to accommodate lots of different hands.

So when all things are equal people opt for more capacity. This does not mean the single stack 1911 or P220 is going away but they are just not going to be driving the market. I do not think the 1911 will ever go away because Americans are obsessed with it but its days a primary LEO weapon, duty gun and even CCW is fading. IMHO

I personally love single stack guns of all sizes because they fit my hands better than most double stacks but in all honesty I own a lot more double stacks than single stacks. If you know how to fit a gun to you hands then there are tons of options out there that can fit you so again why sacrifice capacity.

__________________
Use should dictate gear!

He asked if single stack SERVICE pistols we're obsolete!




Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

When you say "Service pistol", that would be someone in a law enforcement or military capacity prepared go in harms way. For that person, a single stack would generally be obsolete.

There will always be exceptions.

__________________
Just Say No - To Social Media

I think it would mean a gun made for that role.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

We are interpreting his "question" differently.............. I don't think he's been back to clarify......


He references that most "full size service pistols" are now mostly double stack......... and carry 12 to 18 rounds

But his question is;................... are single stacks "becoming obsolete in general?"...

my answer to him is "in general " single stack handguns are not becoming obsolete as they continue to serve many of us very well for our purposes.



In fact there have been many new single stack guns introduced over the past few year .....including by Glock........ who made their reputation with hi cap double stack guns........ and by Sig, S&W and others.

In general single stack are not becoming obsolete..many/most use the same technology as their fat butt siblings... but; as an open carry service gun they have mostly been replaced by hi-cap models.

Service pistols among civilians is most likely a full size pistol. Once reading the OP it is clear that is where his thoughts probably were. Hope he clarifies that for us.

But the reality is capacity does not matter once you are dead. The bad guy gets you with a 22 short derringer in the head the fight is over. This idea that the gun, any gun will make you superman, or superwomen is dangerous.

To clarify: im referring to service sized autos (4-5 inch barrel), being used as a primary sidearm in both law enforcement and citizen carry.

Historically, private citizens tend to choose their handguns based on what is popular in LE.

To be clear: law enforcement primary sidearm, and private citizens who choose full sized pistols.

I carry one every day . . .

(Edit: To me, a service pistol doesn't leave a pinky finger dangling. Your definition might be different)

Attached Images

snubby p7 holser.jpg (53.7 KB, 23 views)

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Not to start an argument...but another point of personal interpretation of your origional post...

As long as I can remember "service size" really has had no firm definition.......from 2" Model 10s ,36s and 2 1/2" 19s to S&W 39xx series and 6906 to Glock 26/27s..... have all served as "primary duty guns" with Detectives and plain clothes officers.... and the guys wearing White shirts (Lt.s and higher)

To MissMuggins point:in Europe Police and Military Service Size guns P5,6 and 7s are all what here in the States are generally considered compacts...... heck even the Beretta 92 "Compact" or single stack Compact Type-M (8+1)....... are the size of a Smith 59xx.


My point is that single stack guns are not "in general Obsolete"..... they work for me and and you seem to like them so don't get caught in the trap of "carrying what the police/military" carry........ those are generally supplied by the lowest bidder!!!!!

If in doubt just add a 2nd or 3rd extra magazine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh ya.... dump that Ruger and grab yourself a S&W 4566!!!!!!!

As far as service pistols, if one cannot qualify with the issued pistol, then one doesn't get the job.

Unfortunately............... and for better or worse....

We've been living in the age of "reasonable accommodation" for a few decades now..................

Actually most major agencies and the military actually test the guns. There were a lot of H&K's selected by federal agencies and I don't think that they were the lowest priced of the pistols tested. If so, there would be a lot of HiPoints in holsters out there.

That is not my personal experience. My experience is that there are actually standards that must be met. Of course that is with a major agency. I don't know what the Loving County Texas (one of the least populated counties in the U.S.) Sheriff's Dept. does.

For open carry, they may be obsolete. But they are still alot easier to conceal than a double stack handgun because the grip is the most difficult part to conceal. Shorter and thinner are easier to hide.

Having dealt with more than one government purchase over my career, the standard is more properly described as "lowest and best . . . ", generally with a local vendor preference of from 5 to 10%, depending on the size of the purchase . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

That p7 is one of the finest 9mm pistols ever devised. I had two at one point. Should not have sold them

Doesn't work that way. Its the cheapest made to a specific spec. Meaning that there is a set standard and companies compete to make that. Materials are still the same. Just like you shop around at different gun stores for one specific gun. I have a friend who does these contracts for a living. Once a order is put out companies see dollar signs because it's the federal government. All of a sudden salaries go up, lunch is fillet mignon, the CEO suddenly needs to go to Hawaii for a week to procure something and of course he's going to need a private limo and first class air fare. All this goes into the total price of the product. So yes it's the cheapest of that. The gov may say ok you can fly to Hawaii if it's a must but it will be coach and you can take a taxi. If they bought the most expensive we'd just be paying for vacations and other unnecessary stuff

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I was using a bit of literary license....(note the smiley face).....to suggest that just because the local LEOs carry something ( or your favorite action film features it) doesn't make it the right gun for you.......your 'specs" aren't necessarily the same as the Alphabet Soup Agencies.......(heck the FBI just declared the .40 obsolete ...........I tend to agree, but it meets a lot of folks needs)

Another gun meeting the same 'specs" may meet your needs better.

I have a buddy that does nothing but supply Police Depts with guns and other equip. all over the Commonwealth. Ah the stories he can tell.......
I've done healthcare contracts bidding well into the eight figure range.



Glock made their name after the ATF classifying the Glock 17/19 as a DOA guns in the 1980s....and then underbidding other makers who also met the specs. Was it the best gun?? In the end it was "good enough" and the cheapest.

Your agency required all female candidates to meet the same height and strength tests as male candidates? Ok maybe....... after they lowered the standards....

Hipoints wouldn't meet the specs....... unless it was for boat anchors...but I hear they do work.

LOL Federal Agencies....... also have an unwritten rule ...... spend all of the money in the budget......so they get more next year...

I'm glad American1776 came back to clarify a bit. "Obsolete" can simply mean "replaced by something else", not necessarily that it's no longer useful, or that the new thing is any better. And the term "service pistol" rules out non-uniform use. My personal choice of a LW Commander is both obsolete and not issued to any agency, but it's my preferred choice.

On a side note, I've shot a few Glocks and don't like them, have never owned one, but they are pretty much the exemplar of a service pistol. I still use Col. Cooper's initial comment: They're good for what they were designed to be, an issue item for semi-trained civil servants.

ETA: Any civil servants in present company excluded, of course.

__________________
TEAM DNF

Interesting comment; I've never heard....... I've owned 3 a 19 and two 26s .............others meet my needs better.................

I have bad vision and 12 year old glasses that need updating. It's hard to see the X at 25 yards on some targets but here's my Glock at 25 yards

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

As long as the first number is 4 and the second number is 5, single stacks are still good. Always remember, no one ever died from a quick loud noise.