Hi all,

I have a couple of questions about buying guns online and doing a FFL transfer to my local dealer:
Are the guns delivered in a sealed condition or are the packaging loose? Are the boxes opened? Are the local dealers required to open the box and inspect the contents before handing it over to me?
If the above answer is "YES", then how do you guarantee that the local dealer will not tamper with your new gun? I mean tampering the gun as in stealing the new parts and replacing them with older ones?

I would appreciate to hear your thots on this. Thanks!

I don't know what's required, but my FFL does open the packaging and at least see what kind of firearm it is. The first time I bought a handgun this way, I checked the serial number on the pistol I received against that given me by the seller.

You certainly want an FFL you can trust.

The guns are shipped/packaged however your seller wants to ship it. If it is not right take that up with him. The receiving FFl will open and inspect the gun to see if all paperwork is proper and record it in his boundbook. I think he has neither the time nor the inclination to mess with the gun and "swap out" any parts. That's penny ante stuff. He is also aware that you and the seller knows what the gun should be. Your local FFL sees you as possible future customer, why would he want to jeopoardize that. You have nothing to worry about. JMNSHO.

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Dick

I know I have used FFL's that will wait to open the box when I arrive (on the same day it arrives), others I have used open the box and get the paperwork ready so all you have to do is fill out the 4473 and their book requirements are all taken care of. Either way find an FFL you can trust, or else you will always be second guessing your transactions with the ones you can't trust.
All of the smaller FFL's I have dealt with have been completely honest, as they mainly use their FFL to sell guns online and to the locals they trust. The larger shops work well too, but they tend to charge more for the transfer so that they entice you to buy one of their guns. I don't have a problem with this either, as I can understand their job is to make money while providing a service to the community and they have more overhead costs than the small gun shops.

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J.D. Roy

Find someone you can trust. I doubt that an ffl would replace parts. Just not good for business. How would he expect to get away with it? Most of the time when I recieve a gun for someone I open it look at it and call the client and 9 out of 10 time they can't come get it for a few days. Besides I have 24 hrs to record it into my inventory after recieving it. If you don't trust your ffl find another they are a dime a dozen or stop being so paranoid. You could also ask him not to open it til you get there if you can get there asap like the same day. I wouldn't have a problem with that I'd just think you were a little strange but I have a few strange cllients that are watching for the silent black helicopters. We need them to warn us when the NWO is here. Doeboy

I'm an FFL, why would I want to become a criminal & steal parts off your new gun? I am required by the ATF to open the boxes sent me & document the contents. Since the ATF is part of our Gov't & since you obviously trust your Gov't I don't see the problem?

Thanks for all of the responses so far.

Just to be clear: my question was not intended to accuse anyone or offend anyone in this forum. I am just trying to gather more information before I commit on my purchase. Considering the economic climate, there are some really desperate people out there.

Incidentally, there are quite a number of pawn shops that do FFL transfers and they charge around $20. Do you guys think these are safe options?

Yep...I just picked up my new M&P from the local pawn and Gun. It was shipped from one of the S&W distributors to my local shop for a better new price than any S&W dealer was willing to give me. Everything was in order and it's not the first gun I've bought from him. This shop has more guns in and out the door than any large dealer I know....why? Price and service.
spricks

Why would an FFl jeopardize his license, it makes no sense. I'll say it again, you have nothing to worry about. It's normal procedure done thousands of times a day, yours is no different.

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Dick

It depends on the dealer. I've used some in the past that opened them, and two that wanted you there when it was opened so that if there was any damage, there was no question about their part of the transaction playing any role in that. Since tracking these days is usually pretty good, you'll know the day it is delivered, and can make arrangements to be there sometime the same day.

I've used the same local gun shop for 3 transfers so far.
All were without any problems.
As stated above, I check to see when it is arriving, and pick it up the same day if possible.
The guns are in the back, so I don't know if he opens it before I arrive or not.

Unfortunately, I know of one gun shop that is less than honest...at least, consider it dishonesty (and I am not going to name names.) Now, what I am going to relate is not dealing with a transfer on a sale between two parties, but if they are dishonest in any of their dealings, I would suspect all of their dealings.

I bought several pistols there and then traded them back in on something else. On two occasions, I later saw them in the case marked as "new." I verified this, because when I buy a pistol, I always record the serial number in the owner's manual, and these had them in my handwriting. I questioned them about this, and they said that as long as the pistol had not been fired (which these had not) it was still new. (They also had them priced the same as other new models.)

The other guns shops I have traded with mark my trades as previously owned but unfired (if they haven't been) and are priced less than comparable new, never owned pistols...not much less, but still somewhat less.

To me, the first instance is dishonest...and I wonder if there are ever conflicts with some manufacturers who only warrant the original owner? In any case, I don't do business there any more, since I don't think I can trust them.

My point: learn all you can about your dealer's business practices. If you can't trust them in one thing, you can't trust them in everything, IMO.

That's interesting. Can you share who some of these S&W distributors are?

I had a friend who had purchased a very high end kimber rifle. The dealer that got it in and opened it up. When the customer came in first thing he noticed was a hugh razor like scratch on the wood. It was a big ole mess and it was determined that one of the employees used a box cutter to open the box and to cut thru the plastic buble wrap. He by mistake put like a 1 ft scratch on the wood. When I bought my brand new test fired only class 3 weapon I didn't think about it being taken out and fired. When my paper work came thru I went to pick it up,and there it was all dirty and what not. I ended up sending it off to have it worked on to fix a busted firing pin. Now when I use an ffl, I ask them very politly to call me when the package arrives so that we can open it together. I'm not trying to be a hard butt,I just want to make sure that what I'm getting is what I bought. Thanks

Good advice. Thanks!

When I was in the business on a special order the customer and I open the package together, but I was a very small FFL. Jeff

When I had my 01 FFL way, way back, I always opened the package and logged the gun into my acquisition & disposition book immediately. I would then contact the buyer to come by or sometimes run it over to them along with the 4473 to fill out.

It would have been unlikely for it to have happened in my situation at the time, but you don't want to be sitting there with a gun that had not been logged into your A&D book if ATF showed up for an inspection. The book has to match what's there, to include your personally owned guns. If a dealer gets cranky about you insisting that he open it in your presence, this is where he is coming from.

All of this was in the old days when you could run a little part-time business from your house. No more.

I would say do a little asking around if you are concerned that a dealer might pull a fast one on you. Word gets around quick, good or bad, so it shouldn't be hard to pick a good one. Good luck.

I have always used the same dealer, I had only 2 problems one was a broken stock not the dealer's fault. The other was I purchased an unfired collector S&W that ran me about 1400. I got to the store and they had opened the box and played with the revolver and belt buckle.

I knew this because in the photos from the seller there was no turn line on the cylinder and the day man told me it had been handled.

I spoke to the owners who denied it at first then I showed them the photos and told them who did what. It never happened again.

I told them there is about 200 FFL holders in Racine and I could go elswhere if need be.

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Stan

It is my understanding that when the FFL receives the package he must open it and log it into his inventory. Anything past that is up to you and the dealer.

Yeah, I use a pawn shop. No problems so far through a number of transactions. I pay $30 here in the Seattle area.

As an FFL myself, I have heard of this type treatment by less than savory individuals. I would be so pissed off if someone I was trusting betrayed my trust...

I would recommend finding a gun store/pawn shop where you can get to know the owners and the men/women who work the counters. Once you are known to them and they to you and you are comfortable with the staff, use them all the time. I have all of my out of state gun purchases shipped to the same small gun store and have had no problems whatsoever. They treat me like they want my business, even though I haven't purchased any new firearms from them.

You guys have been helpful. I'm going to look around for smaller but reputable FFL transfer sites here and request if they can open the box only when I am there.

I just hope you'll be a man & make that "open box" request Before you get his price for transfer, cause I know it shouldn't but reading this kinda pisses me off, being that I would never treat a fellow customer's stuff even as I treat My Belongings. Far as I'm concerned my customer's Treasure is an irreplaceable artifact, I am very careful to not cause any kind of damage that I could not afford to repair which is Any At All. Last gun I rec'd with a broken stock didn't even get opened--Until After my customer was advised to accept the insurance for damage in transit! Pretty obvious when holes in a box that you can stick your arm into!

My local dealer who is also a pawn shop as well as a dealer for all major brands only opens transfers when the customer is there. This is to avoid any of the questions you are asking.

The customer sees what comes out of the box and what condition. Been this way for over twenty years.

You are not required to take transfer of the firearm if it is not what you bought or if there is a condition problem unless it was a auction which stated otherwise.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Buying a new gun is becoming a pain in the butt these days for me. In terms of FFL fees, either you pay thru your nose ($50 or so) with a big name local shop or pay less ($25-30) to a smaller FFL and risk delays, day after day because they were on vacation or missed the UPS/USPS delivery, etc...

It's just so aggravating. This FFL thing is driving me up the wall.

Nice in theory, but what happens when the customer can't come in for a week? The dealer only has a limited time window to log them in, and if ATF drops in for a compliance inspection, they're not going to accept, "oh, the customer hasn't been able to get here yet, hey it's only been two weeks."

Most of my S&W's have been purchased online and I have used three different dealers. Each one had opened the package, removed the firearm and recorded the necessary information in their log book.
There has never been a problem - I have been very satisfied.

Get a C&R. You shouldn't be buying anything newer, anyway.

Yea, that thot has crossed my mind ... but the registrations do add up:

1. Register for a company $180
2. ATF license $200 for 3 years
3. State registration $150

That's worse than the most expensive FFL fee in town.

I think if you would openly discuss any concerns before doing business it might would calm any fears you may have. If the guy acts like he's irritated at you because you are asking some minor questions as a new customer, maybe find someone else. I have several regular customers I do transfers for. Typically if it's something high end (they usually tell me what it is) I wait until the customer is present before opening. I have one gentleman that invests in Dakota Arms and Cooper rifles regularly. I can't afford them, so I wait until he's there to open it so there is no question. It's not worth the hassle for $20 if it goes bad. He didn't ask me to wait to open them, it was just my call. It keeps things out in the open and keeps the level of trust to a high standard as an FFL. JMO.

Rigger, was that Kimber purchased from the Civilian Marksmanship program? The CMP has been selling Kimber 82G .22 match rifles for a couple of years. i think everyone of them has a scratch liked you described and caused by a razor knife cutting the plastic bag for inspection. But the damage was caused in a governement warehouse before it every got into civilan hands.

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Old paratrooper in NC

There CANNOT be a business license required for a C&R FFL; by definition, you have to be a collector, not a business. And the fee is $30 for three years, not $200. Not knowing your state, I can't comment about that registration but I'll bet it doesn't apply to C&R collectors!

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Old paratrooper in NC

I was referring to business. Currently, I do not buy 50 yr old or older weapons.

Where is a good place to give one's feedback about a particular FFL ? People should know about these people so as to avoid them.

A C&R licence can get you discounts from some of the places that sell stuff, at least get you on their mailing lists (the catalogs also can have modern guns in them so you'll get to see more deals).

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I miss my 4546 the most.

Why not save $100 and get an (07) Manufacturing FFL,
Moving to Arizona will save the $180 as there is no Register company fee plus you'll save the State Registration fee too!
Whee!!

my ffl will not open boxes because of liability he says.Two times out of the many other great transactions one of his employees after opening the box tried to use boxcutters to unwrap the extra careful over packing of my new fifty five year old smith. i politely asked if i could do it by hand and averted a potential mess. so i prefer not opening first. but he has a few rules for information on outside of box that if not done he will send it back.he gives me a sheet of what he needs to fax to sender. so far hes the man......good luck..

Don't know about all of them, but I sold one on Gunbroker for a customer that had a cut from a razor knife from the fore end tip to the butt plate.

You guys should just stop buying guns and leave them all for me.....

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James Redfield
LM #497

Sometimes clerks at gun stores just make simple but honest mistakes. I had a S&W coming in that UPS tracking told me had arrived at my FFL's store. Yet when I went there, the guys there said "no, no S&Ws have come in recently." This went on for a couple of days. So I got persistent about it and the clerk told me, "Well, we did get a Ruger that day, but haven't opened it yet."

Turns out the "Ruger" was my S&W, the seller had just shipped it in an old Ruger box he had laying around. I guess it never occurred to the clerk that someone would do that.

On a more sinister note, some years back a member posted about a bad transaction he had. Seems the seller offered a revolver with two sets of stocks, the originals and a set of stags thrown in the deal. You guessed it, when he went to pick up his purchase, the stags were nowhere to be found. They turned the store upside down and could not find them. They could only guess that the guy who opened the box didn't notice them and threw them out with the packaging / padding. The buyer was suspicious that a clerk had swiped them. Or the seller didn't send them even though he swore up and down that he did. Or ... Or ... Or ...

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You're shy a few manners.

Paranoia will destroy ya. An FFL has to log every weapon in and only has a limited time to do so. Guys that are telling you they get the FFL to wait on them are either getting there immediately or are dealing with an FFL that doesn't know or just doesn't follow the rules. There are unscrupulous people but FFLs are tightly regulated. I've never had a problem with a transfer. If you want feedback on specific FFLs use Gunbrokers system, it includes ratings for the FFLs, thats how I found my current FFL and they are a pawn shop that charges $0 per transfer. Good luck.

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Who watches the watchers?

Maybe I can help. What part of Washington are you located? I know at least three highly reputable FFL'S here in South King County.


BUT.......If you have a gun transferred you will also pay taxes on that gun. The tax will be based on what you paid for the gun. If no receipt can be provided or the gun was given to you by other than a family member then the FFL will have to determine market value of the gun and collect the tax. If you transfer into King County the tax is 10%.

Quite often it cost the same or less to simply buy locally. One very good friend's LGS has his website linked to three distributors which is updated every 15 minutes. He can have a hand gun in 3-5 days and a long gun in 7-10 days. Sometimes it pays to shop around and be patient.

Send me a PM if you need help.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

And stop digging up 6 year old threads, I'm confused enough. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

I COMPLETELY understand & empathize with your legitimate concern, as do the 01 FFL holders I deal with. If there is any damage or problem, I want to be able to track it to one of two probabilities: 1. it was packaged that way. 2. It was damaged in shipment. I absolutely don't want to deal with the "unknown" of what may or may not have happened after it arrived at the destination.

I've dealt with the last issue in the past & don't buy the "We have to immediately open every package that arrives" (il)logic. “We must open every package & log into our A&D record before the close of business” is the logic I subscribe to.

That having been said, & out of respect for those whose reputations & livelihoods are dependent upon following the letter of the law; I’ve established good rapport & understanding with several FFL holders who have me tell the sender to include my name somewhere on the shipping label so they don’t have to play the “Let’s open to see what’s inside” game. Of course, I have to watch the tracking status & get to their place of business the same day.

FWIW, it’s the only way I conduct business & so far it’s worked for me/us, although I don’t come into possession of many non-C&R items.

Just one man’s opinion.

ZOMBIE THREAD.... DIE!! DIE!!

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP