My buddy has a 444 Marlin and about 600 rd of Hornady ammo with the 265 FTX bullet. We have been “emptying” the factory brass so that I can load some 240 gr LRNFP bullets using IMR4198. Several books list that powder as some of the best for that cartridge, using that bullet. The problem is, the Hornady cases are shortened (by Hornady!) to 2.065”, down from the normal trim to length (TTL) of 2.215”
The 40 cases that I have prepped are at 2.077, or .138” shorter than the normal TTL. That makes our cases 93.7% (a 6.3% reduction) volume of a normal TTL case at 2.215”. For that 265 gr bullet, Hornady lists 36.6 gr – 41.9 gr IMR4198. I plan to pull one of the factory rounds to measure bullet seating depth compared to what will need to be done with the 240 gr LRNFP bullet. The two Lyman books I have are showing starting loads of 28.0 gr (50th edition) and 32.5 gr (Cast Bullet book) for the same 240 gr LRNFP bullet. The charge of 28 gr is a 23.5% reduction of 4198 and the charge of 32.5 gr is a reduction of roughly 12% from that listed for the FTX bullet. All being starting loads for that powder. I called both Hornady and Hodgdon and was told that I cannot load that 240 gr bullet in the shortened cases. It seems that with a 25 gr lighter bullet, and a 12% to 23% lower charge, the load I want to create would be safe. That is, assuming the 240 bullet seats to no more than, and possibly less than, the depth of the 265 gr FTX bullet. Does anyone have access to one of those subscribe to, load calculator programs, that could run some numbers? What do you all think?
Thanks!

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Sounds ok but really can't comment on what you're trying to do in terms of actually answering your question about "load calculator programs." I am curious though as to why you're tearing down perfectly good (and expensive) factory ammo? The 265 grain FTX bullet is superb in my 444 and highly effective. Why not use it? Not being critical, we all do pretty much what seems right to us, but I would like to better understand what you hope to achieve that can't be done with the factory loads.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

I have Quickload and can run calculations to estimate pressure and velocity of various loads. I find that it's an interesting exercise, but I would be wary about using it for loading recommendations. In my opinion, it's no substitute for professionally developed and tested load data.

Now a bit of a rant: I can't believe Hornady thinks it's ok to produce a loaded round with non-SAAMI dimensions. As you note the cases are definitely shorter than standard. Hornady obviously sells handloading components, yet they sell ammo in cases that are IMNHO unsuitable for handloading. I think they blew it with this approach. It's not only the 444 Marlin they did this to, there are others in their lineup too. I'll stick with standard cases in my 444.

I would recommend a visit to marlinowners - nobody will have better information on the 444 than them.
As a side note, that ammo is going for a lot of cash these days. What about selling the factory ammo and just buying new brass?

SIX HUNDRED ROUNDS, did I read that correctly, and you want to rid yourself of that expensive bullet to get the brass?

Thanks,
Not tearing down factory ammo. When I say "emptying", I mean shooting it. So far, we've shot 40 rd of his old stock. He hasn't shot the gun in over 15 years. He has no plans to hunt with it, which he did do when he bought it sometime in the early 90's. We just want to plink and use it for informal lever action competitions.

He has considered selling off the ammo. It is very expensive!!

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Same thing I thought. I bought all the components to reload the cartridges to the slightly tamer specs. Just as I was making my dummy round, I noted that the COAL was too short. That's when I read the "fine print" in the Hornady manual...
It seems that with a 10% lighter bullet, and a ~ 15%-20% lighter charge, a 6% less case volume load could work. Obviously, I will ultimately stick with the safe route. Even if it means trying to locate the correct (any other manufacturers!!) brass.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

I will check into the Marlin site. I thought that my buddy may have. I tried talking him into doing as you mention, selling the ammo and buying the correct brass. The brass is difficult to come by. I am on a waiting list with Starline.
That, or buying the FTX bullets. Also difficult and very expensive, to come by.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Yes you read that correctly! And I should have said approximately 600...

It's that I just typed it incorrectly... I was thinking 50 rd pistol boxes. He has 13 20 rd boxes...so, 260...it's been a few (too many!) years since I attended a math class...
But like I mentioned above, not ridding ourselves of the ammo/bullets, just making brass to reload. I do think he should sell off the premium ammo to someone that can use it and buy the needed brass. But also like mentioned above, no brass to be found. And he doesn't think he could find a buyer for the factory loaded ammo.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Ceapea, is all the ammo you have loaded with the FTX bullet? You do realize only the Hornady brass which is factory loaded with the FTX bullet is shorter, not all their 444 brass.

It's possible you can load Gallery Loads with the shorter brass using a lead bullet and hopefully the brass will stretch to a more workable length. Hey, Gallery Loads are a hoot-to-shoot and you just might get the brass to stretch a little in the interim.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Yes, all FTX ammo, unfortunately. I know about their other brass. We just don't have access to it. Considering the lighter bullet and the lighter/starting charge (1450 fps vs 2400), I already consider this to be a gallery load. Just a light plinking load...all we are looking for. To shoot 6"-10" steel plates at 55 to 75 yard.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

I own and shoot 2ea Marlin 444P's. The FTX Load is a great deer donker among others. Most everyone going in "knew" the Hornady brass was shorter.
I shoot "em" and save the brass. Just in case........Not worth the hassle the OP is creating.
Standard brass can be had.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

My friend, the owner of the rifle, never reloaded anything, ammo wise, all the time he has had firearms. He bought what he thought was the best ammo at the time for his intended purpose, hunting. Now, he doesn't hunt. He just wants to enjoy the gun for short range competition. Not creating a hassle, just trying to use what materials are available in a time when materials are hard to come by. And again, the loads I'm suggesting are much lighter starting loads in valid load manuals, using odd-ball brass just .138" shorter!
The 28 gr load is 23% lighter than the starting load of 36.6 for the heavier bullet, in the same length case. And, it's not a reduced load.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

A few years ago somebody gave me 20 of the short Hornady .45-70 cases. I could see that they were shorter and so I dropped the powder charge a few grains. I was surprised to find that I could not apply any amount of crimp to them with my RCBS die. I turned the die deeper into the press but the cartridge went only so far and stopped before crimp could be applied. I had to use my .45 ACP taper crimp die to remove the flair on the case mouth. I don't know why this happened; maybe because the .45-70 is a tapered case? I'm not sure if this problem would also apply to .444 Marlin.

The part of the case that is shorter is at the rim. Unless there is some anticipated problem with there being sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place, load them to the suggested OAL and there should be no loss of case capacity... At least to my way of thinking?

The pressure should be exactly the same as loaded in a longer case. Just more of the bullet exposed if they were the same length overall as the Hornady pills.

Cheers!

P.S. Reload Depot has once fired 444 Marlin brass available...

When I get ‘rid’ of 600 Rounds,
I hear 600 Bangs!
But that’s just me.

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

Exactly! We will shoot them all. But it is only 320 rd. I made a mathematical error...

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Thanks for that info!!

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

I have read about that possibility also. I have a Lee collet crimp die. Not sure it will work. Some have ground down the base of the die. Others have adjusted the shell holder...

I believe, after making my one dummy round, that there will be no need to crimp. A large bearing surface, very tightly inserted in the case mouth.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

The Hornady short 444 brass is perfect for me - I size it down and trim it for 405 JES. If you'd like to work a swap, I have 99 new Starline 444s we could deal on.

I'll ask him. Right now, we have 40 empties. And a bunch more to empty!!

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Well, send me 150 once-fired Hornady and I'll send 99 new Starline.

I bought my 444 back in the early '70's. At the same time I ordered 200 brand new never fired Hornady brass. Then purchased 1000 Hornady 265 grain flat point jacketed to load. The 240 that was being factory loaded at the time was the only factory load available. The problem with the 240 rem was that it didn't work properly at the speeds generated by a 444. They worked for a 44 rem Mag.

I have never felt any need to even go to any other bullet for the 444. The 265 flat point is perfectly designed for the rifle and for it's speed.{and works in the tubular magazine}

I've used this rifle on both deer and black bear with success. I'm not sure why you would want to mess with case lengths or anything with this gun.

Keep it simple. The wheel doesn't need re-inventing. {I do use 4198}

OP, before you load up 300 rounds in the FTX brass, make sure they'll feed through the rifle at that length. Some lever guns can be fussy with shorter ammo. Owners of .44 and .357 magnum lever rifles have sometimes complained that their guns work fine with magnum rounds, but choke on ,44 and .38 Specials. Good luck.
The .444 Marlin (or maybe a Winchester) rifle is on my wish list. I've managed to acquire a set of dies and a little brass, still looking for the right rifle.

Thanks.
But I am planning to use the 240 LRNFP at published loads with a velocity of 1450-1525 FPS.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Thanks, and good luck finding your rifle.
I too have read about 357 mag/44 mag rifles not feeding spl rounds. I have been lucky in that my rifles in those calibers do feed the spl rounds. But I have experimented in loading both 38 spl and 44 spl rounds long, bullet seated to magnum lengths, to see if there was any improvement. Or really, just to pass the info along to those experiencing the feed issue. All long loaded rounds feed and shoot perfectly!

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

The 444 Marlin is a fun caliber to reload for and can be a thumper, for sure. The 240 grain load you're looking at should be a real joy to shoot.

I also use Lee's collet crimp die. My 300 grain reloads tend to hit pretty hard...

Starline dot com…

__________________
NRA Life Member

444 Marlin is out of stock with no plans to make them anytime soon. I checked the site and called to speak with them.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

So, I was able to pull a factory Hornady cartridge apart. The FTX bullet is .525” from bottom to the center of the cannelure. The LRNFP bullet is .388” from bottom to top of crimp groove. Or, .137” shorter than the FTX bullet. The FTX seats considerably deeper into the case, all the while sitting on top of a considerably “warmer” charge of the same powder. There is more case volume available (even in the shortened case) using the LRNFP bullet. Pressure will not be an issue with the lead bullet fully seated to the crimp groove. The Hornady load, in the short case, is 36.6 gr to 41.9 gr IMR4198.
With a 25 gr lighter, and .137” shorter (effectively) bullet, a 12%-23% lower charge of the same powder (still a published load for powder/bullet combination), I feel completely comfortable and safe making ammo for the 444 Marlin using all the above components.
Now, I will load up 10 rd each at 28.0 gr and 30.0 gr. A few each for test firing/recoil and case inspection. And a few each for accuracy/grouping.

Attached Images

IMG_4100.jpg (29.4 KB, 11 views)

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

To my way of thinking the important measurement is not comparing them from crimp to canellure, but from the base of the bullets to the base of the case. Regardless of how long the case is, the volume in which the powder is contained and the resultant pressures depend upon this measurement. Canellure & crimp groove location is, to me, secondary (if not tertiary?) to establishing case volume.

I don't think using a shorter case length (thereby exposing more of the bullet's shank) is critical in a straight walled cartridge, as it could be in a bottle-necked cartridge as far as neck tension on the bullet is concerned.

If those bullets had no canellure OR a crimp groove or a plastic tip, where (how long?) would you load them and why? The plastic tip is just there to prevent ignition in the magazine tube, is it not?

NOTE: This is not taking into consideration whether these rounds will reliably function in a lever action: I am only referring to the volume of the case and the amount of the powder and the weight of the bullet.

Just my observations, I could be way off base. I thought the original premise had to do with shorter cases and different design & weight bullets...

Cheers!

STORMINORMAN ^^^^ has it right, in my opinion. Only thing I'd add is a 444 Marlin can benefit from a good crimp in the cannelure. If the case mouth doesn't align with the cannelure, that's not possible. You really don't want that bullet moving around in the case mouth.

Not sure we are talking about the same things. The bullet I want to use (and will) has a crimp groove. When seated to the groove on my bullet, or to the cannelure on the FTX bullet, the lead bullet (my bullet) leaves an additional .137" more case depth (base of bullet to base of case), and resulting volume than with the factory FTX bullet. (See the attached pic above.)

In instances where there was no groove/cannelure, I just load to industry standards...book length recommendations.

Am I missing something else that you are meaning to tell me?
Thanks!

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

Looking at my picture, I do plan to load to the crimp groove, and that still leaves more room in the case than with the FTX bullet. Besides that, without modifying the crimp die, a good firm crimp is not achievable with either the seating/crimp die, nor the collet crimp die. Lots of bearing surface though. And like I said, one at a time only...no mag tube filling for this gun.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

I was, perhaps, unintentionally confusing...?

What I was trying to impart was that regardless of the length of the case (shorter Hornady vs. "full length") the important measurement pressure wise is how much room there is between the bottom rim of the case (the base) and the bottom of ANY bullet used.

The amount of any bullet that extends beyound the upper rim (the exposed shank) is going to be dependent upon the weight and design of the bullet. Your image suggests that if loaded to the crimp groove on the lead bullet it should project into any case less than the tipped bullet would. This is good: it would indicate (at least to me) that in all cases (instances might be a better word?) there would be more available case volume for the powder charge and should not, therefore, generate excessive pressures.

If these bullets are going to be loaded individually into the chamber the question of OAL becomes almost moot: they don't have to function from the tubular magazine anymore, just fit.

One could use other, "pointy" spitzer-type bullets as well, as is done with the 30-30 quite often I'm told.

My concerns were about pressure and the concept that canellures and crimp grooves need not be the determining factor as to where to load a bullet. If a bullet had neither, how should one make the determination of how deeply into a case the bullet should be loaded?

Cheers!

We got the 444 Marlin out today. At 25 yd, from a rest, both loads shot exactly the same. And that was very good in my opinion. Both loads (240 gr LRNFP and 28.0 and 30.0 IMR4198) shot a one hole, 3 shot group of 9/16”! And two more in each group opened them both up 1 ½” exactly. I may consider experimenting with pistol powders…but why?? These loads shoot!

Also, pressures were high enough (but VERY low…recoiling like shooting a 38-lever gun!) to provide enough expansion at the case mouth to prevent soot. And, being that the case is too short to accept a crimp from 444 Marlin dies, I experimented with a second Lee FCD for 44 spl/magnum die set. Guess what! It worked! I had to crimp each by feel (aren’t they all?) and couldn’t fully cycle the press handle. But it provides a very easy to perform, consistent crimp.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!

For a free Quick Load type program you could try Gordon's Reloading Tool.
The more info you put in the more accurate it is.

__________________
Thugs that comply don’t die!