444 Marlin quandary

Ceapea

Ceapea

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My buddy has a 444 Marlin and about 600 rd of Hornady ammo with the 265 FTX bullet. We have been “emptying” the factory brass so that I can load some 240 gr LRNFP bullets using IMR4198. Several books list that powder as some of the best for that cartridge, using that bullet. The problem is, the Hornady cases are shortened (by Hornady!) to 2.065”, down from the normal trim to length (TTL) of 2.215”
The 40 cases that I have prepped are at 2.077, or .138” shorter than the normal TTL. That makes our cases 93.7% (a 6.3% reduction) volume of a normal TTL case at 2.215”. For that 265 gr bullet, Hornady lists 36.6 gr – 41.9 gr IMR4198. I plan to pull one of the factory rounds to measure bullet seating depth compared to what will need to be done with the 240 gr LRNFP bullet. The two Lyman books I have are showing starting loads of 28.0 gr (50th edition) and 32.5 gr (Cast Bullet book) for the same 240 gr LRNFP bullet. The charge of 28 gr is a 23.5% reduction of 4198 and the charge of 32.5 gr is a reduction of roughly 12% from that listed for the FTX bullet. All being starting loads for that powder. I called both Hornady and Hodgdon and was told that I cannot load that 240 gr bullet in the shortened cases. It seems that with a 25 gr lighter bullet, and a 12% to 23% lower charge, the load I want to create would be safe. That is, assuming the 240 bullet seats to no more than, and possibly less than, the depth of the 265 gr FTX bullet. Does anyone have access to one of those subscribe to, load calculator programs, that could run some numbers? What do you all think?
Thanks!
 
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Sounds ok but really can't comment on what you're trying to do in terms of actually answering your question about "load calculator programs." I am curious though as to why you're tearing down perfectly good (and expensive) factory ammo? The 265 grain FTX bullet is superb in my 444 and highly effective. Why not use it? Not being critical, we all do pretty much what seems right to us, but I would like to better understand what you hope to achieve that can't be done with the factory loads.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
 
I have Quickload and can run calculations to estimate pressure and velocity of various loads. I find that it's an interesting exercise, but I would be wary about using it for loading recommendations. In my opinion, it's no substitute for professionally developed and tested load data.

Now a bit of a rant: I can't believe Hornady thinks it's ok to produce a loaded round with non-SAAMI dimensions. As you note the cases are definitely shorter than standard. Hornady obviously sells handloading components, yet they sell ammo in cases that are IMNHO unsuitable for handloading. I think they blew it with this approach. It's not only the 444 Marlin they did this to, there are others in their lineup too. I'll stick with standard cases in my 444.
 
I would recommend a visit to marlinowners - nobody will have better information on the 444 than them.
As a side note, that ammo is going for a lot of cash these days. What about selling the factory ammo and just buying new brass?
 
SIX HUNDRED ROUNDS, did I read that correctly, and you want to rid yourself of that expensive bullet to get the brass?
 
22hipower said:
Sounds ok but really can't comment on what you're trying to do in terms of actually answering your question about "load calculator programs." I am curious though as to why you're tearing down perfectly good (and expensive) factory ammo? The 265 grain FTX bullet is superb in my 444 and highly effective. Why not use it? Not being critical, we all do pretty much what seems right to us, but I would like to better understand what you hope to achieve that can't be done with the factory loads.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
Click to expand...

Thanks,
Not tearing down factory ammo. When I say "emptying", I mean shooting it. So far, we've shot 40 rd of his old stock. He hasn't shot the gun in over 15 years. He has no plans to hunt with it, which he did do when he bought it sometime in the early 90's. We just want to plink and use it for informal lever action competitions.

He has considered selling off the ammo. It is very expensive!!
 
Krogen said:
I have Quickload and can run calculations to estimate pressure and velocity of various loads.

Thanks for looking into that!

Now a bit of a rant: I can't believe Hornady thinks it's ok to produce a loaded round with non-SAAMI dimensions. As you note the cases are definitely shorter than standard. Hornady obviously sells handloading components, yet they sell ammo in cases that are IMNHO unsuitable for handloading. I think they blew it with this approach. It's not only the 444 Marlin they did this to, there are others in their lineup too. I'll stick with standard cases in my 444.
Click to expand...

Same thing I thought. I bought all the components to reload the cartridges to the slightly tamer specs. Just as I was making my dummy round, I noted that the COAL was too short. That's when I read the "fine print" in the Hornady manual...:(
It seems that with a 10% lighter bullet, and a ~ 15%-20% lighter charge, a 6% less case volume load could work. Obviously, I will ultimately stick with the safe route. Even if it means trying to locate the correct (any other manufacturers!!) brass.
 
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MD9NYC said:
I would recommend a visit to marlinowners - nobody will have better information on the 444 than them.
As a side note, that ammo is going for a lot of cash these days. What about selling the factory ammo and just buying new brass?
Click to expand...

I will check into the Marlin site. I thought that my buddy may have. I tried talking him into doing as you mention, selling the ammo and buying the correct brass. The brass is difficult to come by. I am on a waiting list with Starline.
That, or buying the FTX bullets. Also difficult and very expensive, to come by.
 
Sevens said:
SIX HUNDRED ROUNDS, did I read that correctly, and you want to rid yourself of that expensive bullet to get the brass?
Click to expand...

Yes you read that correctly! And I should have said approximately 600...

It's that I just typed it incorrectly...:o I was thinking 50 rd pistol boxes. He has 13 20 rd boxes...so, 260...it's been a few (too many!) years since I attended a math class...:D
But like I mentioned above, not ridding ourselves of the ammo/bullets, just making brass to reload. I do think he should sell off the premium ammo to someone that can use it and buy the needed brass. But also like mentioned above, no brass to be found. And he doesn't think he could find a buyer for the factory loaded ammo.
 
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Ceapea, is all the ammo you have loaded with the FTX bullet? You do realize only the Hornady brass which is factory loaded with the FTX bullet is shorter, not all their 444 brass.

It's possible you can load Gallery Loads with the shorter brass using a lead bullet and hopefully the brass will stretch to a more workable length. Hey, Gallery Loads are a hoot-to-shoot and you just might get the brass to stretch a little in the interim.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Ceapea, is all the ammo you have loaded with the FTX bullet? You do realize only the Hornady brass which is factory loaded with the FTX bullet is shorter, not all their 444 brass.

It's possible you can load Gallery Loads with the shorter brass using a lead bullet and hopefully the brass will stretch to a more workable length. Hey, Gallery Loads are a hoot-to-shoot and you just might get the brass to stretch a little in the interim.
Click to expand...

Yes, all FTX ammo, unfortunately. I know about their other brass. We just don't have access to it. Considering the lighter bullet and the lighter/starting charge (1450 fps vs 2400), I already consider this to be a gallery load. Just a light plinking load...all we are looking for. To shoot 6"-10" steel plates at 55 to 75 yard.
 
Sevens said:
SIX HUNDRED ROUNDS, did I read that correctly, and you want to rid yourself of that expensive bullet to get the brass?
Click to expand...

I own and shoot 2ea Marlin 444P's. The FTX Load is a great deer donker among others. Most everyone going in "knew" the Hornady brass was shorter.
I shoot "em" and save the brass. Just in case........Not worth the hassle the OP is creating.
Standard brass can be had.
 
Mike said:
I own and shoot 2ea Marlin 444P's. The FTX Load is a great deer donker among others. Most everyone going in "knew" the Hornady brass was shorter.
I shoot "em" and save the brass. Just in case........Not worth the hassle the OP is creating.
Standard brass can be had.
Click to expand...

My friend, the owner of the rifle, never reloaded anything, ammo wise, all the time he has had firearms. He bought what he thought was the best ammo at the time for his intended purpose, hunting. Now, he doesn't hunt. He just wants to enjoy the gun for short range competition. Not creating a hassle, just trying to use what materials are available in a time when materials are hard to come by. And again, the loads I'm suggesting are much lighter starting loads in valid load manuals, using odd-ball brass just .138" shorter!
The 28 gr load is 23% lighter than the starting load of 36.6 for the heavier bullet, in the same length case. And, it's not a reduced load.
 
A few years ago somebody gave me 20 of the short Hornady .45-70 cases. I could see that they were shorter and so I dropped the powder charge a few grains. I was surprised to find that I could not apply any amount of crimp to them with my RCBS die. I turned the die deeper into the press but the cartridge went only so far and stopped before crimp could be applied. I had to use my .45 ACP taper crimp die to remove the flair on the case mouth. I don't know why this happened; maybe because the .45-70 is a tapered case? I'm not sure if this problem would also apply to .444 Marlin.
 
The part of the case that is shorter is at the rim. Unless there is some anticipated problem with there being sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place, load them to the suggested OAL and there should be no loss of case capacity... At least to my way of thinking?

The pressure should be exactly the same as loaded in a longer case. Just more of the bullet exposed if they were the same length overall as the Hornady pills.

Cheers!

P.S. Reload Depot has once fired 444 Marlin brass available...
 
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David Sinko said:
A few years ago somebody gave me 20 of the short Hornady .45-70 cases. I could see that they were shorter and so I dropped the powder charge a few grains. I was surprised to find that I could not apply any amount of crimp to them with my RCBS die. I turned the die deeper into the press but the cartridge went only so far and stopped before crimp could be applied. I had to use my .45 ACP taper crimp die to remove the flair on the case mouth. I don't know why this happened; maybe because the .45-70 is a tapered case? I'm not sure if this problem would also apply to .444 Marlin.
Click to expand...

I have read about that possibility also. I have a Lee collet crimp die. Not sure it will work. Some have ground down the base of the die. Others have adjusted the shell holder...

I believe, after making my one dummy round, that there will be no need to crimp. A large bearing surface, very tightly inserted in the case mouth.
 
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