Gold Box vs Blue Box

Salmon68 · #1 01-16-2020, 04:14 PM

Hi folks, which box is correct for a K-22 (pre 17) from 1948, gold or blue? I was thinking gold but the guy I traded for at OGCA this past weekend said the blue box it came with is correct. I was not going to debate the guy since I wanted the gun and it did have a box although I believe its the wrong vintage. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

JP@AK · #2 01-16-2020, 04:19 PM

The two piece blue boxes definitely were NOT in use in 1948. A K-22 Masterpiece in 1948 would have shipped in a gold box like this one.

JP@AK · #3 01-16-2020, 04:21 PM

Post a picture of your box and we can probably come pretty close to telling you what vintage it is.

larryofcc · #4 01-16-2020, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salmon68

Hi folks, which box is correct for a K-22 (pre 17) from 1948, gold or blue? I was thinking gold but the guy I traded for at OGCA this past weekend said the blue box it came with is correct. I was not going to debate the guy since I wanted the gun and it did have a box although I believe its the wrong vintage. Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you.

Need full serial number. Big Larry

andyinlz · #5 01-16-2020, 05:12 PM

Well, does the box SN match the gun?

If not, it is wrong regardless of the color.

glowe · #6 01-16-2020, 07:41 PM

There were no blue boxes used in 1948 for Masterpiece revolvers. Gold boxes ran from 1946 to 1965, while the first two piece blue box was introduced with the advent of model numbers, around 1957 - 1958 through 1966.

JP@AK · #7 01-16-2020, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

the first two piece blue box was introduced with the advent of model numbers, around 1957 - 1958 through 1966.

This seems to be generally true for the K and N frame revolvers. However, blue boxes appeared for the I and J frames a bit earlier, probably around 1954. Of course, I and J frame guns were not shipped in the gold boxes. The boxes for the postwar small frame guns were red.

Walter Rego · #8 01-16-2020, 08:54 PM

Mr. Lowe, what about the very dark blue/grayish colored boxes with solid borders ? I have one that has S&W in silver on one end, and a paste on, pre-printed label on the other for a K-38 Heavy Masterpiece with a 6 inch barrel, blue finish and Target Hammer.
The bottom interior section has the April 15, 1955 Statement of Liability and Warranty notice.
Is it correct for my pre-Model 14 that shipped on 5/31/55 and matches the description ? The original serial number on the bottom is illegible.

handejector · #9 01-16-2020, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

the first two piece blue box was introduced with the advent of model numbers, around 1957 - 1958 through 1966.

This seems to be generally true for the K and N frame revolvers. However, blue boxes appeared for the I and J frames a bit earlier, probably around 1954. Of course, I and J frame guns were not shipped in the gold boxes. The boxes for the postwar small frame guns were red.

I disagree.
What many of us call Blue/Black (B/B) boxes appeared in 1955. We call them Blue/Black because they were a very dull blue that faded to a very dark Gray that looks like faded black.
Some very late 5 Screw and the early 4 Screw Masterpieces were shipped in them. Not too surprisingly, some very early 4 Screw Masterpieces shipped in Gold boxes. Grab what's close and get 'em packed!
The early 5 Screw Mod 1955 Targets shipped in B/B boxes, and so did some 5 Screw Mod 1950 Targets.
Some late 5 Screw Pre 10s shipped in B/B boxes.
I am sure of all of the above because I have seen all of the above in high condition, complete packages that I am certain were original. In some cases, they were from the original owners. In a few cases, I saw original sales receipts.

Here is a K-22 box for # K275297. Note that the bottoms of the B/B boxes are usually faded less than the tops because they are protected from light by the top. Light fades them. Apparently, any kind of light.

Gold Box vs Blue Box-img_0064-jpg

Below is another B/B for K-22 # K284941. Note that it is deeper, longer, and wider than the above box. When S&W first offered Target Grips for the Masterpieces, they were still using Gold boxes. The gun will NOT fit in a Gold box with the Target grips mounted, so S&W shipped some Masterpieces that were early orders with TG in the Gold boxes with the grips dismounted and wrapped in brown tissue. That probably led to some damaged grips and complaints. I SUPPOSE S&W ordered these deep, non-printed boxes to save time and get that problem solved. This same generic box was used for those N frames I reference above.

Gold Box vs Blue Box-img_0068-jpg

This last pic shows the difference in length and width-

Gold Box vs Blue Box-img_0072-jpg

rubiranch · #10 01-16-2020, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

I disagree.

Thank you soo much for sharing all this info and the pictures.

This should be bookmarked, along with the one you deleted.

JP@AK · #11 01-16-2020, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

What many of us call Blue/Black (B/B) boxes appeared in 1955.

Some very late 5 Screw and the early 4 Screw Masterpieces were shipped in them.

Good response, Lee. Got me to thinking. So I dug through the big safe and found what I was looking for. A K-38 Masterpiece, four screw, that shipped in November, 1956. The serial number is very close to the K-22 box you showed in your pictures. It is ANIB and the box is the dark blue type. This particular one has lived in the safe for so long it shows very little fading.

Of course, on these early blue boxes, the model number is not embossed on the end, like it was a couple years later. I have some K-38s from the late 1950s in blue boxes but those say Model 14 on the end of the box (no paper label).

It is worth noting that the warranty and liability statements on the inside of these boxes are dated April 15, 1955.

As an aside, you won't believe the number of people I come across who think that is the date their gun was made . . .

rubiranch · #12 01-16-2020, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

As an aside, you won't believe the number of people I come across who think that is the date their gun was made . . .

That could be me. LOL!!!!!

glowe · #13 01-17-2020, 12:28 PM

Lee, thanks for the B/B box #66079. I always call those black boxes, but have never seen one that looks the least bit blue yet.

That box reinforces my thought that target stocked K frames needed to be shipped in an N frame box. The longer target stocks will not fit in the Gold boxes. I have no idea how the factory shipped target stocked Masterpiece revolvers before the advent of the B/B boxes?

JP@AK · #14 01-17-2020, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I have no idea how the factory shipped target stocked Masterpiece revolvers before the advent of the B/B boxes?

Gary
The stocks were shipped off the gun, wrapped in tissue paper and enclosed in the box below and in front of the yoke of the revolver.

RKmesa · #15 01-17-2020, 02:37 PM

I also have several K and N Frame target guns that shipped in the 1955 time frame in the Blue/Black boxes. Just a reminder that the Highway Patrolman and the Combat Magnum both shipped in the mid 1950's in the blue/black boxes.

With that said, I would fully expect that a 1948 shipped K-22 Masterpiece would have shipped in a Gold box.

There were also some burgundy two piece boxes that housed some of the early post war Outdoorsmans and Heavy Duties. I think I've also seen a couple of those burgundy boxes used for N-Frame .357's and some of the Target .45 ACP revolvers as well.

glowe · #16 01-17-2020, 08:35 PM

I gotta tell you Jack, that I have tried to stuff those targets inside a gold box with no luck. They seem just too big? They are also thicker than the box is tall at 1.6" for stocks and 1.3" for box. So do they fit in two pieces somewhere I have not tried?

JP@AK · #17 01-17-2020, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I have tried to stuff those targets inside a gold box with no luck. They seem just too big?

I just don't know what to tell you. I'm sure that many moons ago I was able to duplicate what I believe was the shipping department's practice. It seems obvious from your photos that something is amiss with my memory. Next time I have a bunch of boxes and revolvers out of the safe, I'll fiddle with it again and let you know the results.

Maybe they had some deeper boxes. But, if so, why not just ship the gun wearing the stocks? I'm sure they didn't do that . . .

glowe · #18 01-18-2020, 10:20 AM

Well, I had my stuff out ans found one way to tightly fit the stocks by turning them over, but they are tight in the corner and hit the front sight and the barrel rib. Even if they were wrapped, it would seem that many would almost certainly be damaged or scratched during shipment.

All Masterpiece gold boxes that I have ran across were 4 hole corner rivets, and the box would not close completely with the thick Target stocks, BUT would close enough maybe to ship? The Blue/Black N frame 5 hole corner riveted boxes would have been an answer in 1955 and later, but those early 1950s shipments ramain a mystery? I have one unmarked solid blue N frame box with a K38 Combat Masterpiece label on the end. I do not know when those blue "repair" boxes were introduced, but if this one is original, it pre-date model numbered Masterpiece revolvers.

My guess is that from the introduction of the K frame target stocks until 1955, most were shipped in the burgandy N frame boxes that were available from 1946 until 1975 according to SCSW4. Anyway, may be a boring subject to most, but it is interesting to me.

RKmesa · #19 01-18-2020, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

...Anyway, may be a boring subject to most, but it is interesting to me.

... as a box enthusiast, very interesting to me as well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

Walter Rego · #20 01-19-2020, 08:21 PM

A couple of photos I found on the 'net. Forgive me if they were taken by any members here but they show the blue/black boxes with the 5 hole corner staples and a K-38 with Target Stocks. Unfortunately the serial number on these examples is not known.

glowe · #21 01-20-2020, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter Rego

A couple of photos I found on the 'net. Forgive me if they were taken by any members here but they show the blue/black boxes with the 5 hole corner staples and a K-38 with Target Stocks. Unfortunately the serial number on these examples is not known.

Thanks Walter. Those images would likely be from 1955 to 1957 Masterpiece revolvers. I have a similar label on an unmarked blue 5 hole riveted box that also fits a 6" K38. SCSW4 states those solid line boxes were used from 1957 to 1966, but Lee stated they may well would have started 2 years earlier. The hard box/gun combo to find is a factory Masterpiece with Target stocks and the box it was shipped in before 1955.

RKmesa · #22 01-20-2020, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter Rego

A couple of photos I found on the 'net. Forgive me if they were taken by any members here but they show the blue/black boxes with the 5 hole corner staples and a K-38 with Target Stocks. Unfortunately the serial number on these examples is not known.

Gold Box vs Blue Box-s-w-k-38-tall-blue-box-target-stocks-label-variation-jpg

Gold Box vs Blue Box-s-w-k-38-tall-blue-box-target-stocks-label-variation-jpg

That one is mine and it is for SN K140804. I have not lettered or dated it... Here are some more photos from that photo session:

glowe · #23 01-20-2020, 12:50 PM

140,XXX was built in 1952. That is the plain box that no one has commented on yet. Do you know if it is original to your gun? Blue boxes supposedly did not start until 1955 and they had silver printing and a solid border. Yours is more like a plain rapair return box from post-1955 except for the interior printing?? Mysteries continue to pop up.

rct269 · #24 01-20-2020, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

There were no blue boxes used in 1948 for Masterpiece revolvers. Gold boxes ran from 1946 to 1965, while the first two piece blue box was introduced with the advent of model numbers, around 1957 - 1958 through 1966.

In the interest of demonstrating the sheer folly of discussing or debating what S&W may or may not have done at any particular point in time, know that K-22 Masterpiece #K253444 was shipped January 10, 1956 to Belknap Hardware Co. in Louisville KY in a blue box.

Ralph Tremaine

Salmon68 · #25 01-20-2020, 02:33 PM

Hi folks, thank you for all the comments. I did not realize there would be that much discussion on this topic but having the right box for a gun does make a big difference so I guess I should not be surprised. My gun's serial number is K58xxx and I did call Smith and they told me the mfg was 1948. Based on all the comments here the correct box would be a gold colored one. The grips are original so if I ever find a gold box the gun should fit nicely. I'll keep the blue box the gun was sold with and someday maybe I'll have something that will fit it and be correct for that period box. In the meantime I am heading to the range to enjoy my new K-22. Thanks again.

glowe · #26 01-20-2020, 03:21 PM

Salmon, You will find K22 gold boxes all the time on ebay. Assuming that your gun has Magna stocks, it will fit perfectly in any of the gold Masterpiece revolver box. Try to match your gun with the label to make sure it does not state target trigger, target hammer, target stocks, or is for a Heavy Masterpiece. You want the plain end label box. Later guns had all those features available.