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  #1  
Old 05-14-2010, 12:31 AM
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Default S&W Magazine disconnect feature.

Greetings, S&W Semi-auto shooters,

I have a question for you all, if I may. I have never own an S&W semi-auto, but would like to consider one. However, I have heard that semi-autos from S&W all feature an additional safety in the form of a magazine disconnect. If I understand this correctly, that would mean that the pistol will not fire if the magazine is removed, even if a round is in the chamber. Is that right?

I have never owned a firearm with this feature, and wonder how you all feel about that "safety". I would like to be able to fire the gun, even if all I had was the one round in the chamber. I do understand the safety issue about it, but think the inability to fire the pistol without the magazine inserted is also a safety issue.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, as you, being owners of such firearms, can best educate me on this topic. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and comments. Take care, and God Bless!

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Old 05-14-2010, 04:21 AM
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None of the 1911s do, you can get the M&P line with a mag safety but most don't, I believe some of the 3rd gen autos do, and as far as I know all of the 22a pistols have them.

I personally wouldn't want one and the only gun I've owned that did have it was a 22a and it was easily removed. I can see why some cops like them, incase the bad guy gets your gun and doesn't know how to work it, there is a chance he will hit the mag release trying to get it off safe. For a concealed carry gun, the bad guy shouldn't know that you have a gun unless you're pointing it at him so it shouldn't come in play at all.
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:26 AM
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I never understood the aversion to the magazine safety. The odds of you firing a weapon in self defense are astronomical (unless you're Jack Bauer or something). If you DO fire a gun in SD, you're not gonna be counting shots. You're gonna pull the trigger until the gun is empty, and you may not even realize the gun IS empty. So you're not gonna be reloading a still loaded gun in the middle of a shootout. If you DO attempt this, it takes MAYBE 2 seconds to drop a partially full mag and seat a new one. The odds of you needing that one round in those two seconds is even more astronomical than if you get into a shooting at all (and this is assuming that you will have the presense of mind to drop a still loaded mag during a shootout). And even if you do, pistol shots aren't one shot, instant stoppers (unless you hit the brain. Good luck with that). So even if you get that one shot off, now you have an empty gun that still needs a reload, except now the slide is not locked back, so it will take 2 hands to load and rack the slide, all while someone is still coming at you.

On the other hand, the odds are MUCH higher that mag disconnect can save you. In the struggle for a gun, you're probably gonna lose (and please don't chime in with the "my tactical awareness is always at 100%, and if you let someone get that close to you, you need to work on tactics" comment. Nobody is that tactically aware all the time. Try getting the kids into the mini-van without them killing each other over a DS game.) Most robberies are in your face, push up close. Dropping the mag makes the gun inert if you feel you are about to lose it. I personally know 2 cops who are here today because of the mag disconnect. That's why S&W made the safety, since cops were their biggest clients for the 3rd gen guns. Not to mention that if you store the mag outside of the gun, the gun is inert. Nice plus if you have kids around, or a wife who really doesn't want to learn how to shoot and won't touch the things. Sure, I keep them locked up, but one extra layer of safety is OK in my book.

Do a search. Tell me how many people were shot because the couldn't reload their gun during a shootout when they had one round in the chamber, vs the amount saved by the disconnect.

Only downside to them is if you are going to use the gun in competion. IDPA rules are to drop the mag, rack the slide several times, and then pull the trigger before holstering. Mag disconnect prevents this.
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:26 AM
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I have a magazine disconnect on my 4506-1. Civilian concealed carry is non-existent in New Jersey, so if itís the pistol that I keep for home protection, I have to unload it, and the magazines, before taking it to the range. Considering that I load/unload the weapon at least 4 times a year, that feature, and the safety de-cocker, add a level of functional protection that I feel comfortable with.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:04 AM
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I have guns both ways and really don't give the feature much attention. On the S&Ws' it doesn't have any effect on trigger pull, unlike say a Browning Hi-Power. I do remove it from guns that I use in IDPA/USPSA just for ease of operation. If given the choice I buy guns without the feature but I try not to out think the whole thing.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
The odds of you firing a weapon in self defense are astronomical (unless you're Jack Bauer or something). If you DO fire a gun in SD, you're not gonna be counting shots. You're gonna pull the trigger until the gun is empty, and you may not even realize the gun IS empty. So you're not gonna be reloading a still loaded gun in the middle of a shootout. If you DO attempt this, it takes MAYBE 2 seconds to drop a partially full mag and seat a new one. The odds of you needing that one round in those two seconds is even more astronomical than if you get into a shooting at all (and this is assuming that you will have the presense of mind to drop a still loaded mag during a shootout). And even if you do, pistol shots aren't one shot, instant stoppers (unless you hit the brain. Good luck with that). So even if you get that one shot off, now you have an empty gun that still needs a reload, except now the slide is not locked back, so it will take 2 hands to load and rack the slide, all while someone is still coming at you.
Quote:
On the other hand, the odds are MUCH higher that mag disconnect can save you. In the struggle for a gun, you're probably gonna lose (and please don't chime in with the "my tactical awareness is always at 100%, and if you let someone get that close to you, you need to work on tactics" comment. Nobody is that tactically aware all the time. Try getting the kids into the mini-van without them killing each other over a DS game.) Most robberies are in your face, push up close. Dropping the mag makes the gun inert if you feel you are about to lose it. I personally know 2 cops who are here today because of the mag disconnect. That's why S&W made the safety, since cops were their biggest clients for the 3rd gen guns. Not to mention that if you store the mag outside of the gun, the gun is inert. Nice plus if you have kids around, or a wife who really doesn't want to learn how to shoot and won't touch the things. Sure, I keep them locked up, but one extra layer of safety is OK in my book.
That was worth posting again. And it represented my sentiments exactly. It's hard on the internet to distinguish the difference between reality, forum commandos and what is tacticool. The magazine disconnect safety is one of this issues often clouded by the latter two.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:46 AM
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Well said kbm6893. My thoughts on this topic as well. Regards 18DAI.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post

Only downside to them is if you are going to use the gun in competion. IDPA rules are to drop the mag, rack the slide several times, and then pull the trigger before holstering. Mag disconnect prevents this.

I disagree, I can still pull the trigger.

It just goes back easier



I never had an issue with the mag disconnect, and liked them for the reasons already stated since I carried my 4506 on duty.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:20 AM
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I like the feature because it serves as a "kill" switch on the gun. If I am struggling for my gun, I can disable the gun by simply hitting the magazine release.

Some folks criticize the Smith because the safety works the "wrong way".

1. My gun has the saftey off when holstered.

2. I only use the safety if the gun is out of the holster. i.e. under the seat when I go in the courthouse.

3. If you can't get it right after two or three repetitions, you probably should not be playing with gun.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:54 AM
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I
Quote:
have never owned a firearm with this feature, and wonder how you all feel about that "safety". I would like to be able to fire the gun, even if all I had was the one round in the chamber. I do understand the safety issue about it, but think the inability to fire the pistol without the magazine inserted is also a safety issue.
S&W allows a choice in their current pistols, so just pick the one you want.

For action pistol competitions, you do NOT want a magazine safety. I was once grabbed by a senior IPSC RO who did not understand why I was putting an empty magazine back into a Hi Power to drop the hammer. They expect you to drop the slide, drop the hammer, holster, and get out of the way, and don't want to hear about magazine disconnects. I put a cylinder and slide trigger in the Hi Power (it does not have the magazine disconnect)

Arguing whether the magazine "safety" truly adds safety is like arguing politics: avid proponents vs avid opponents is not a pretty sight, and not much information passes. In spite of what you hear from the devoted, magazine disconnects have both prevented and caused accidents. I personally know a fellow who killed his washer by putting an empty magazine into an "empty?" gun and testing the trigger. Dropping the magazine in a retention struggle has prevented shootings.

You pays your money and you makes your choices.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:57 AM
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Good Morning, Guys,

Many thanks for your cogent thoughts and comments on this topic. It's all new to me, as I've never owned a firearm that had this feature. So, it's wonderful to hear from so many who have, and do, use pistols with the mag safety. I suppose it's rather like the first time I got a Sig pistol. I had to get used to the first, long, harder trigger pull, then get the more "normal" trigger pull for all the rest of the shots. I did get used to it, and that was just a matter of training and practice. After reading your thoughts on this, I would imagine that having a mag safety is much the same thing. Training and practice equals no problem. Thanks, again, for your thought, Friends. Good points, all, on both sides. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:05 PM
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For the record, the Second Gen guns also have this feature, as on my 639. I don't mind the mag disconnect feature for a carry gun for the previously posted reasons. My 639 is not used as a carry gun but rather as a range/competition gun and the mag disconnect feature can be bothersome. Range rules require you to "dry fire" on an empty chamber before you bag or holster the gun. You must have an empty mag to insert into the gun to do this and then remove it prior to bag/holster. Just another step to remember. I would like to remove this feature form mine as it is not a carry weapon. My favorite gunsmith will not remove any factory "safety devise" as a matter of avoiding liability. He did "smooth" the trigger and action and install new sights with dovetails. Guess I need to find another 'smith for this work.
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
I personally know a fellow who killed his washer by putting an empty magazine into an "empty?" gun and testing the trigger.

He failed at gun safety
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
...You pays your money and you makes your choices.
That's the bottom line. Both types have advantages and disadvantages.

I happen to like magazine disconnects, but, depending on what I am doing with the particular gun, can live with a pistol that doesn't have one - and sometimes prefer it that way. I certainly don't need one on a pistol used only for target shooting.

A lot of whether the mechanism serves you well or not mainly depends on what you use the gun for. In your OP, you don't say what pistol you are considering. The M&Ps, for example, I gather can be changed back and forth if you want, but of course a pistol not equipped with one when shipped will have the slide markings, which may or may not matter to you.
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:14 PM
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Default screed on mag safeties

I tend to like magazine safeties, for many of the reasons stated above. It's not a deal killer for me; I've owned and used 1911's for more than 40 years and they don't have them.

I do however have a problem with removing magazine safeties from guns which were designed with them. If you do so, you are changing the manual of arms of that weapon in a way that is not obvious to casual inspection. That is a safety issue.

This issue probably arises most often with Browning Hi Powers. The magazine safety does affect trigger pull and prevents the magazine from dropping free (this, by the way, is not a bug, it's a feature). If you are familiar with the type, you can tell almost immediately if this modification has been done and you would probably know how common it is. That's one "if" and one "probably", which might be one too many of each. On other types, it is not obvious. Of course, you can always test by absolutely clearing the pistol, pointing the empty pistol in a safe direction, removing the magazine, and pulling the trigger, and seeing what happens. Well and good, if someone thinks to do it.

You will note that I have included what amounts to a safety lecture/disclaimer in a forum posting directed at people who are probably much more aware of safety issues than the general public. A little paranoid? Perhaps, but this stuff, like e-mail, never goes away, and I have no control over where it might end up. Like wise, I have no absolute control over where my guns might end up. I have heard people say "It's my gun and I know how it's been modified and no one else is going to use it. If I sell it I can always reinstall the mag safety". Probably. Maybe. But you can't be totally sure under what circumstances that deadly weapon will be used or by whom. Things happen that no reasonable person would expect. They will happen with or without your permission. If nothing else, when you die, your control over your guns ends; doesn't matter what it says in your will.

I know many people will disagree with this, considering the removal of a magazine safety to be a useful and reasonable modification. That is certainly their choice to make. For me, if it came with one, I'll leave it in place.

Charles
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
I

S&W allows a choice in their current pistols, so just pick the one you want.

For action pistol competitions, you do NOT want a magazine safety. I was once grabbed by a senior IPSC RO who did not understand why I was putting an empty magazine back into a Hi Power to drop the hammer. They expect you to drop the slide, drop the hammer, holster, and get out of the way, and don't want to hear about magazine disconnects. I put a cylinder and slide trigger in the Hi Power (it does not have the magazine disconnect)

Arguing whether the magazine "safety" truly adds safety is like arguing politics: avid proponents vs avid opponents is not a pretty sight, and not much information passes. In spite of what you hear from the devoted, magazine disconnects have both prevented and caused accidents. I personally know a fellow who killed his washer by putting an empty magazine into an "empty?" gun and testing the trigger. Dropping the magazine in a retention struggle has prevented shootings.

You pays your money and you makes your choices.
The only way that a mag disconnect CAUSED an accident, is by somebody intentianlly pulling a trigger with a mag in the gun. That person must be an idiot. Why would you assume the chamber is unloaded?

I'm sure a few accidents have been caused by having a mag disconnect, but FAR MORE have been prevented. Hey, a few people have been killed because their seatbelt prevented them from getting out of a burning or sinking car, but WAY MORE have been saved by those seatbelts.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:15 AM
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I fail to see how removing the mag safety makes the gun any less safe for me or someone who could potentially aquire my gun after I die. If you follow the rules of gun safety there is no way that having or not having a mag safety is going to make a gun less safe.

I also don't remove the mag safety because I'm afraid I'll need that round in the chamber during a reload. I remove them because they are an extra, and IMO unnecessary piece that leaves one more thing that could break and screw up your gun right when you need it most. Why would you make something more complicated than it needs to be?

I've already said I can understand why police who have exposed guns would want them. If you are carrying your gun concealed then a potential snatcher should not know that you have a gun to take. If you feel it necessary to pull that gun out, then you must feel that your life is in danger and should be shooting the person not wrestling with them.

As for the seatbelt issue I'm sure that plenty more lives have been saved than have been killed by them. I feel that I as an adult should not be fined and harrased by police for putting my life and my life alone in danger by not wearing a seatbelt.

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Old 05-15-2010, 01:56 AM
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The main objection I have with magazine disconnects is that the pistol will not fire IF THE MAGAZINE IS NOT FULLY SEATED!!! There have been incidents where this has happened, either because the mag wasn't inserted with enough force, or the release button was bumped sometime after the magazine was inserted. Some badly designed and/or modified holsters will do this.

In the early days of the Model 39, two cops on an eastern police department were shot while trying to shoot back at their antagonist but their -39's failed to fire because their mags were slightly unseated. Investigation showed their issued holsters likely bumped the release buttons. S&W settled the resulting lawsuits out of court and then doubled the strength of the mag release catch spring to make a repeat of this less likely.

All that said, pick a pistol that has the design characteristics you like and place value upon. What may be a desirable feature in one circumstance may be disadvantageous in another.

If I decided to carry a S&W pistol so equipped, I don't think I would worry much about it. The system they have is now pretty reliable.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:48 AM
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Hi Doc.I have a Chief's Special in 9mm with the magazine disconnect feature.I am also a NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and Chief Range Safety Officer.You are correct in the assertion if the magazine is removed the gun will not fire.As a safety issue for Law enforcement and Civilians there are two schools of thought.The first scenerio is when a perp is in a position to get control of your pistol.By dropping the mag all he will have is a two pound club.@ this time you draw your BUG and take control of the situation.The other is when a cop or licenced civilian "accidentally drops his/her mag or the perp sucessfully hits the release.The gun will be deactivated but when this happens the person will go for thier reload mag,reinsert it and take care of buisness.Without the safety you would have 1 shot to use and yes thier is a delay in going for the reload mag hence the dilemma.The answer lies in the hands of the user and exactly what the gun is used for be it duty or Concealed Carry Mode.I routinely will practice a "Dropped Magazine" drill where I get my reload and reinsert it this way if it happens I can deal with it.From a Instructor standpoint I have seen a few accidental discharges from failure to eject the chambered round and pulling the trigger "a la Glock" to break it down.When teaching Glock fans in First Steps courses I have them drop the mag and rack the slide three times.Next I have them lock the slide and manually and visually check the chamber, mag areas,and remove all live ammo from the area before dry firing.If you had a mag safety this type of AD could be prevented.The only problem I have with Glock is having to dry fire as a condition of breakdown and the Polymer thing.Hope I covered this subject to your satisfaction.God Bless....Mike

Last edited by Cruiser RN; 05-15-2010 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:25 AM
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Good Morning, Mike, and All,

Again, more outstanding comments and thoughts on all this. I remember, "back in the day", reading about some LEO's that were shot whilst reloading, and because of a mag safety, could not fire the one shot they have left up the spout. Interesting, how something read so long ago could color my thinking today, isn't it?! I also remember shooting a few Browning Hi-Powers, and all of them had horrible trigger pulls. Nice to know that the S&W guns have not had their triggers effected by the mag safety. One of the things that I really like about this forum, is that many of it's inhabitants have "been there, done that, and have the T-shirt". So, for those of us who have questions, we can ask and receive a plethora of outstanding answers. This is a valuable resource. As for myself, it seems the older I get, and the more I learn, the less I actually "know", anymore! Thanks, again, Folks! Much appreciated! Take care, and God Bless!

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Old 05-15-2010, 12:36 PM
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Point missed. Not worth the effort.

Last edited by Super Trucker; 05-16-2010 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
With that attitude, I hope you are not the person that has the mag drop button pushed when he draws in an emergency. If the mag is not fully seated you have a expensive rock.
And yes I have seen this happen in training classes, but since I am not into gun fights on a regular basis I have not seen it in real life.


I like how the new S&W guns that have the OPTION for those that may not want it.

I would bet one dollar that NON police are the biggest carrier of 3rd gen guns today, are you positive that they have the training to not get killed becuse of that "safety" feature?

BTW: dead citazens don't make the news like dead cops, so again are you positive that the safety feature is all that great? Seems like if it was all that grat it wouldn't be an option on new guns!
So you're equating a person who doesn't visually check a weapon before pulling the trigger (first rule of gun safety) with a cop whose mag release was accidentaly hit, allowing the cop's mag to become slightly unseated, making the weapon useless? How often does that happen? I can say that after carrying a Glock 19, and a S&W 5946 3rd gen, and getting out of a police car thousands of times, that that has not happned to me, or any other cop I know, EVER. Can it happen? Sure. But the odds of it happening are extremely low. The benefits outweigh the potential, highly unlikely, drawbacks. And since you have attending training classes, did your instructors ever tell you that one shot before the gun goes dead without even a slidelock, is almost as bad as a gun that has the mag slightly out, preventing that mag to fire? You think that one shot is going to stop an assailant? I've seen people shot 6-7 times and they are still a threat.

And dead civilians whose gun malfunctions in a shooting make the news just as much as cops. You don't see them in the paper very often because civilians RARELY get into shootings, and their guns usually work just fine when they do.

And yes, a person who pulls the trigger without checking the chamber is an idiot. No other way to describe him that would be allowed on this forum. That dishwasher could just as easily have been a wall with an innocent person behind it.

Last edited by kbm6893; 05-15-2010 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:38 PM
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Point missed. Not worth the effort.

Last edited by Super Trucker; 05-16-2010 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
I was not talking about people not checking the chamber, but since you thought I was I agree with what you said.

I was talking about the mag safety not always being a "safety" feature for NON cops who are not trained. I have seen more then one person pull a gun from a holster and the mag hit the ground, I am not saying you are lying but it does happen.
As far as one round being fired as opposed to none, I mean really did you actually say that?

I don't think anybody said one round was going to stop every threat every time, but from the sounds of what you are saying NO rounds are better then one?

I am happy you feel that it is a GOOD feature, not everybody will always agree with your opinion, such as this case.

Again I ask if it is such a great thing, why is it an option on the newer S&W guns?

I honestly wish there was a detailed description on how to remove the mag disconnect from 3rd Gen guns, like there is for the M&P's. I would remove them from mine.

If you are ever in the Detroit area, let me know and I will introduce you to a guy I used to work with that got robbed and his gun taken from him after he drew it on the robber, because he was too stupid to turn off the safety? That NEVER made the news.

I believe that you are NOT thinking about untrained people carrying the 3rd gen guys. (which in 2010 is the majority)

That feature might have been the greatest thing to trained cops, but not so great with untrained people IMO.


I think its fair to say, we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.
First of all, NOBODY who carries a gun should be untrained. If they don't want to take the time to train with a weapon, they shouldn't carry one.


Second of all, if a friend of yours pulled a gun and forgot to take off the safety, he's an idiot and shouldn't be carrying that weapon.

And no, I don't think that one round is worse than none, but i DO know that a handgun round will NOT stop an attacker, unless it's in the head, and since a trained person like myself knows that a head shot under pressure is very unlikely, what will your untrained friend do when he realizes that his gun is empty and his slide isn't locked back? Most likely, he will continue to "pull the bangy thing and wonder where the boom is". So yes, I think firing one round and the being empty with non-slide lock is worse than not firing that one shot. Because a trained person like myself will tell you that you probably won't even know you are empty when that slide doesn't lock back

Come on, man. Your argument against having mag disconnects is "untrained people need to carry something, too". How about your untrained friends actually learn how to safey carry and use the deadly weapon they carry?

Are you for real?

Last edited by kbm6893; 05-15-2010 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:18 PM
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I want to thank KBM6893 for that informnation. i never gave the mag disconnect a second thaught untill my recent purchase of a 908 s&w. its the first gun i have ever owned that had a mag disconnect. i hated it, i thought it was the dumbest thing ever, i wanted to figure a way around it. but after reading KBM6893s assesment of the whole thing i have done a compleat 180! that was the best argument for a mag disconnect i could consider. i now wish all my pistols had one. thank you for that honest to the point assesment and thank you for your expertise on the subject. this is exactly why i joined this forum. thank you again, BB
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Old 05-16-2010, 12:12 AM
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Point missed. Not worth the effort.

Last edited by Super Trucker; 05-16-2010 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 12:16 AM
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I was wondering what state in this land of ours allows untrained individuals to get a pistol license and carry a gun.If someone is untrained they shouldn't have a gun period because having one will likely result in thier demise or that of a innocent bystander.I was a double action revolver shooter for many years and took the plunge into semi-autos after I became a firearms instructor and picked the CS9 because of a magazine disconnect .To me it is another level of safety.I also bought a safe direction armor board because it will stop 1 Unintentional discharge if it were to occur.I also did the DAO conversion because I like that trigger configuration.It baffles me that a gun company would make it where you need to pull the trigger to break it down "A LA GLOCK".That is a accident waiting to happen.Like I had said before the ultimate decision lies with the owner and there is plenty of valid points for both camps to agree to disaagree on this issue.God Bless......Mike
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Old 05-16-2010, 12:41 AM
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The mag disconnect safety is an option for the same reason the safety lever is, they are trying to market the gun to anyone and everyone. That was never a decision based on making the gun as safe as possible, it was decision based on selling as many guns as possible.

Believe it or not before I was a cop I was a civilian with a CCW (not for long, but I was). The first thing I did when I bought my S&W 915 was to enroll in a handgun course taught by a former Secret Service Agent and FI. Then I started carrying. I was not new to guns at all, but I was new to carry a gun concealed and using a handgun as a tool for self defense. My home state requires NOTHING to get a CCW, but that class was packed full of people. Some new to guns and some not so new.

You don't have to take the motorcycle safety course to drive a bike, but you and everyone else on the road are much better off if you do. Same thing with handguns. A lack of training equates to ignorance, ignorance equates to negligence, negligence gets people hurt or killed.
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Old 05-16-2010, 12:51 AM
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"And no, I don't think that one round is worse than none, but i DO know that a handgun round will NOT stop an attacker, unless it's in the head,"

That is a silly statement. Sometimes it will, and sometimes it won't. Just how many people have you had to shoot several times because the first shot didn't get them to stop?
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:37 AM
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There's been some good points raised and some manure thrown. Briefly: there hasn't been a documented case of a magazine disconnector/safety causing a casualty in the US [certainly there have been no lawsuits filed by "victims" or their survivors], there have been quite a few people documented as having been saved by one.

S&W makes the disconnector optional because there are those who refuse to buy a weapon with the feature. Their choice. .

FWIW, I've seen nigh onto 2 million rounds go downrange from disconnector equipped S&W autos without any failures as a result of mechanics. The S&W designs do not require the magazine to be locked in place to fire. Failure to fully seat the magazine generally results in bang, whoops! Corrected by the same immediate action drill used in non disconnector equipped weapons where the magazine wasn't fully seated. Should you fail to seat the magzine sufficiently to activate the trigger, the disconnector probably prevented the magazine from hitting the deck after firing the chambered round. An event much harder to recover from than if the magazine is still in the well. Note: if there's a round in the chamber, you're doing a tactical reload, which is done from behind cover during a lull in the action. Where exactly is the threat?

I started out as an opponent of the device, accepted it as a necessary evil and have become a fan over almost 20 years.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
That is what is so bad about these forums, some people never get the point of what you are saying.

NOWHERE did I say it was good to be untrained, but since I wasn't born yesterday I know most people don't bother.

I am going to ask you a third time now, IF THE MAG DISCONNECT IS SO WONDERFUL WHY IS IT AN OPTION ON THE M&P GUNS? (3rd gen replacement)

Sorry for the caps, but you conveniently have missed it a few times so I have to add a little emphasis.

BTW: you can drop the elite attitude, I have seen videos of cops screwing up (making idiot mistakes) during a shootout so keep that in mind, prior to making smug comments.
The disconnect is an option because some people don't want one, and many people use the M&P in competition shooting, where it is a bother, and in some cases not even allowed.

Many people also don't buy a handgun to carry, where the disconnect really shines. They buy to target shoot or just to keep around the house.

If you know several people who have drawn their guns and the mag hits the floor, and you can introduce me to a guy who failed to take his weapon off safe during a robbery, than you know alot of people who shouldn't be carrying a gun. I have never seen either of those situations.

That ONE bullet in the chamber MIGHT stop the assailant, but as i said above (and you say I don't read), is that the odds of you ever getting into a shootout are very high, and the odds of the mag becoming unseated are even higher, and the odds of you needing that one shot in the few seconds the gun is down thanks to the dropped mag even higher than that, and the odds of that one pistol shot ending the fight are even higher. You have a better shot at hitting the lottery.

I'm not elitist. Cops aren't perfect. I know that. But your posts are backed up by no facts, just experiences with untrained people. And if trained cops can make mistakes with their weapons, untrained people will make even more, and THAT is where the mag disconnect comes into play. I don't want some untrained person thinking his gun is empty since the mag is out and firing a shot. Those bullets end up somewhere. Sometimes in innocent people's bodies and not in dishwashers.

Last edited by kbm6893; 05-16-2010 at 06:47 AM.
  #32  
Old 05-16-2010, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BUFF View Post
"And no, I don't think that one round is worse than none, but i DO know that a handgun round will NOT stop an attacker, unless it's in the head,"

That is a silly statement. Sometimes it will, and sometimes it won't. Just how many people have you had to shoot several times because the first shot didn't get them to stop?
Never shot anyone. Have seen many people shot. And one shot will not stop them (unless it's in the head). They can still pull their own triggers. They might die 30 minutes after they are shot, but rarely die in the blink of an eye..
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Big bullit View Post
I want to thank KBM6893 for that informnation. i never gave the mag disconnect a second thaught untill my recent purchase of a 908 s&w. its the first gun i have ever owned that had a mag disconnect. i hated it, i thought it was the dumbest thing ever, i wanted to figure a way around it. but after reading KBM6893s assesment of the whole thing i have done a compleat 180! that was the best argument for a mag disconnect i could consider. i now wish all my pistols had one. thank you for that honest to the point assesment and thank you for your expertise on the subject. this is exactly why i joined this forum. thank you again, BB
Thanks for the kind words, but I am no expert. Just someone who has carried a gun in real world situations. And based on my experiences, the disconnect is a fabulous feature that i wish was on my other 2 semi auto's (Beretta's). It's the reason my 6906 is my carry gun and the only gun kept with a loaded magazine in the house (locked away, of course). The beneifts FAR outweigh the perceived drawbacks (and I see ZERO drawbacks, personally).
  #34  
Old 05-16-2010, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
The S&W designs do not require the magazine to be locked in place to fire. Failure to fully seat the magazine generally results in bang, whoops! Corrected by the same immediate action drill used in non disconnector equipped weapons where the magazine wasn't fully seated. Should you fail to seat the magzine sufficiently to activate the trigger, the disconnector probably prevented the magazine from hitting the deck after firing the chambered round. An event much harder to recover from than if the magazine is still in the well. Note: if there's a round in the chamber, you're doing a tactical reload, which is done from behind cover during a lull in the action. Where exactly is the threat?

I started out as an opponent of the device, accepted it as a necessary evil and have become a fan over almost 20 years.
My 6906 won't fire at all if the mag isn't fully seated. I just loaded the mag with snap caps and tried it. If it isn't fully seated with the audible click, the trigger won't operate.

I also note that it takes a fair amount of pressure to press the mag release, and even with the gun holstered, if the mag release is pressed, the mag ejects nearly 2 inches, to just past the 14 hole in the magazine (I use 5906 mags with the base plate adapter). All good features. If the mag release was somehow hit accidentally, the loud click and the mag ejecting out as far as it does would certainly not go unnoticed.

And I'm glad you brought up the tactical reload. Even if you decide to do it, you're not going to be doing it while you're exposed. You're gonna be doing it from cover. And i still believe that 99% of people in a shooting won't even think to do it. They'll just keep pulling that trigger.
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:33 PM
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"Never shot anyone. Have seen many people shot. And one shot will not stop them (unless it's in the head)."

Well, I have shot people with handguns. I also worked the robbery-homicide detective squad of my state's largest law enforcement agency for years. I know firsthand that sometimes one shot stops the guy and sometimes it doesn't.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book on handgun stopping power was based on researching hundreds of police-involved shootings. They documented a large percentage of one shot stops with some handgun and cartridge combinations, some exceeding 90%.

"They might die 30 minutes after they are shot, but rarely die in the blink of an eye.."

Whether the shootee lives or dies is irrelevant to the discussion. Most people shot with handguns, probably 75%, live. Stopping the bad guy's acts is the goal, not killing him.

Also, to be more accurate, it isn't "head shots" that are the best stoppers, it is hits to the entire central nervous system, which is the brain and spinal cord. Lots of head shots aren't good stops because they don't impact the brain.

But, back to the discussion on magazine safeties...

No safety device should ever be considered as a substitute for proper gun handling.

Whether or not a magazine safety is good or bad depends on the user's totality of circumstances and personal preferences. While the handguns I carry daily don't have them, that factor wasn't part of my choice decision. If I carried a S&W autopistol so equipped, I wouldn't let it concern me much. S&W's system is pretty reliable.
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:40 PM
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"Briefly: there hasn't been a documented case of a magazine disconnector/safety causing a casualty in the US [certainly there have been no lawsuits filed by "victims" or their survivors],"

Writer Massad Ayoob discussed the case I mentioned in an article he wrote. It wasn't a "what-if" discussion. I don't have the reference available. Perhaps he made it up. But I doubt that.
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Old 05-16-2010, 03:43 PM
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See guys, super trucker got butthurt and went home
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUFF View Post
"Never shot anyone. Have seen many people shot. And one shot will not stop them (unless it's in the head)."

Well, I have shot people with handguns. I also worked the robbery-homicide detective squad of my state's largest law enforcement agency for years. I know firsthand that sometimes one shot stops the guy and sometimes it doesn't.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book on handgun stopping power was based on researching hundreds of police-involved shootings. They documented a large percentage of one shot stops with some handgun and cartridge combinations, some exceeding 90%.

"They might die 30 minutes after they are shot, but rarely die in the blink of an eye.."

Whether the shootee lives or dies is irrelevant to the discussion. Most people shot with handguns, probably 75%, live. Stopping the bad guy's acts is the goal, not killing him.

Also, to be more accurate, it isn't "head shots" that are the best stoppers, it is hits to the entire central nervous system, which is the brain and spinal cord. Lots of head shots aren't good stops because they don't impact the brain.

But, back to the discussion on magazine safeties...

No safety device should ever be considered as a substitute for proper gun handling.

Whether or not a magazine safety is good or bad depends on the user's totality of circumstances and personal preferences. While the handguns I carry daily don't have them, that factor wasn't part of my choice decision. If I carried a S&W autopistol so equipped, I wouldn't let it concern me much. S&W's system is pretty reliable.
So you would agree that the "untrained people" that trucker says are the majority of carriers of S&W autos would benefit from the feature?

And since you have shot people (I have only shot a charging pitbuill. Not the same, I know), did you count your shots? Did you tactically reload in the middle of the shooting? Do you think you would have had the presense of mind to realize that your gun had only fired that one shot, and was now empty without slidelock, and then been able to reload and rack the slide? If so, how long do you think it would have taken you to register the proble, and fix it? My question is serious. Do you think you would have been able to respond to that situation while the bullets were still flying?

I think your experience on this would put an end to the debate. And do you know any fellow officers who have been saved by the disconnect. i do. Retired PD myself.. And by the way, you are right, I meant one shot stop, not kill. Still, I worked in one of the worst neighborhoods of NYC and i saw many people shot multiple times still in the fight. One guy took 5 .45's to the back while he was running from a robbery, and he dialed 911 himself!

Last edited by kbm6893; 05-16-2010 at 04:56 PM.
  #39  
Old 05-16-2010, 05:28 PM
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I don't think that any one person's experience, especially mine, will settle a discussion like this. Everybody's training and experience levels are different. Every armed encounter is different. Tell me what your next gunfight is going to be like, and I can tell you whether or not a mag safety MAY be helpful. Otherwise...

I never shot my gun to slidelock. I knew about how many shots I had fired. I did a tactical reload before holstering without thinking consciously about it, but the shooting was all over by then. It was likely a result of having had excellent instructors over the years and forming what I hoped were good habits.

I think that the kind of unintended disharges we are talking about here, and whether a mag safety would have helped prevent them or somehow may have contributed to them occurring, can't be settled for sure. Guns are dangerous. People shouldn't handle them without training. But, they do.

As someone once said, it is impossible to build a foolproof device because fools are so ingenious!

When a local department, the Salt Lake City P.D. issued Model 39's in the 1970's, an officer I knew was saved by the disconnect. He stopped a group of gypsies who jumped him, got his pistol away from him and beat him. He carried it with the safety/decocking lever in the 'safe' or down position, and during the process of trying to make his gun go off, they ejected the mag, which bounced under their car so they couldn't get at it. Luckily, they gave up trying to murder him at that point, throwing his gun into a roadside creek and leaving him.

I prefer that my handgun have some kind of manual safety device, to slow down the actions of someone else getting their hands on it, but I seem to be in the minority, judging from the popularity of Glocks and such.

If it were possible to PROVE that a mag safety was good or bad, it would have been done years ago, and all handguns would either have or not have them. But, every situation is different, every gun handler is different, and every gun buyer has to decide for themself which features they want. One can make good arguments for both positions.
  #40  
Old 05-16-2010, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUFF View Post
I don't think that any one person's experience, especially mine, will settle a discussion like this. Everybody's training and experience levels are different. Every armed encounter is different. Tell me what your next gunfight is going to be like, and I can tell you whether or not a mag safety MAY be helpful. Otherwise...

I never shot my gun to slidelock. I knew about how many shots I had fired. I did a tactical reload before holstering without thinking consciously about it, but the shooting was all over by then. It was likely a result of having had excellent instructors over the years and forming what I hoped were good habits.

I think that the kind of unintended disharges we are talking about here, and whether a mag safety would have helped prevent them or somehow may have contributed to them occurring, can't be settled for sure. Guns are dangerous. People shouldn't handle them without training. But, they do.

As someone once said, it is impossible to build a foolproof device because fools are so ingenious!

When a local department, the Salt Lake City P.D. issued Model 39's in the 1970's, an officer I knew was saved by the disconnect. He stopped a group of gypsies who jumped him, got his pistol away from him and beat him. He carried it with the safety/decocking lever in the 'safe' or down position, and during the process of trying to make his gun go off, they ejected the mag, which bounced under their car so they couldn't get at it. Luckily, they gave up trying to murder him at that point, throwing his gun into a roadside creek and leaving him.

I prefer that my handgun have some kind of manual safety device, to slow down the actions of someone else getting their hands on it, but I seem to be in the minority, judging from the popularity of Glocks and such.

If it were possible to PROVE that a mag safety was good or bad, it would have been done years ago, and all handguns would either have or not have them. But, every situation is different, every gun handler is different, and every gun buyer has to decide for themself which features they want. One can make good arguments for both positions.
Thanks for the response. I think the one thing we DID settle here is an untrained person has no business owning or operating a firearm. And the problem is that MANY people who decide to make the choice to buy one don't take the time to use them, and unintended discharges will continue to occur. A good friend of mine has an XD9. He fired 200 rounds through it, reloaded it, (never cleaned it) and put it in his sock drawer. 2 years later, I am over there and insist he clean it. No mag in the gun, but one chambered. I ask him why, and he says "in case my daughter finds it, she can't fire it". 5 years after buying that gun, it has had 200 rounds through it.

In my opinion, the move away from manual safeties and mag disconnects is due to the large amount of untrained, unskilled shooters who elect to excercise their right to bear arms, yet don't want to take the time, or spend the ammo, to learn the weapon. Some of the new cars coming out will parralel park for you! Hey, why bother to learn how to do it when a machine will do it for you, right?

Last edited by kbm6893; 05-16-2010 at 06:22 PM.
  #41  
Old 05-16-2010, 11:08 PM
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kbm6893-the metal frame S&Ws operate the magazine disconnector with the top of the magazine lips. Whether or not your particular pistol requires the mag to be locked into place depends upon magazine spring tension and individual tolerances. We issued the 1006 and it didn't need the mag locked into place to operate (did bang, whoops a couple of times myself).

The M&P series uses the back of the magazine body to operate the disconnector, so the magazine position isn't as critical.

Buff- I read a similar story once upon a time (but IIRC, was one officer, not 2), I don't believe that Mas was the source, since he's debunked several similar tales involving either the thumb or magazine safety. More to the point, he participated in a discussion similar to this on what's now the eotacforum back in October 2006 where this issue was beaten beyond death without mentioning it. He's currently traveling/teaching with only sporadic internet access. One of the other things I remember about that alleged incident is that the holsters in use weren't designed for the S&W, but were used by that department and were alleged to have caused the issue. In any event, without documentation, it's kinda like the story from your cousins uncles brother who knew a guy...............

Last edited by WR Moore; 05-16-2010 at 11:49 PM.
  #42  
Old 05-16-2010, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
Thanks for the response. I think the one thing we DID settle here is an untrained person has no business owning or operating a firearm. And the problem is that MANY people who decide to make the choice to buy one don't take the time to use them, and unintended discharges will continue to occur. A good friend of mine has an XD9. He fired 200 rounds through it, reloaded it, (never cleaned it) and put it in his sock drawer. 2 years later, I am over there and insist he clean it. No mag in the gun, but one chambered. I ask him why, and he says "in case my daughter finds it, she can't fire it". 5 years after buying that gun, it has had 200 rounds through it.

In my opinion, the move away from manual safeties and mag disconnects is due to the large amount of untrained, unskilled shooters who elect to excercise their right to bear arms, yet don't want to take the time, or spend the ammo, to learn the weapon. Some of the new cars coming out will parralel park for you! Hey, why bother to learn how to do it when a machine will do it for you, right?
I don't know why I am bothering since you are about 6 planets away from what i was saying.

First: This thread is about a mag safety correct?
Next: You say cops lives are saved by the mag safety, correct?

Finally: Are these cops trained to push the mag release to disable the gun in a fight? That would mean they are trained Right?

How many Non cops are trained to push a mag release in the event of a fight? So they are untrained right?

I never said a thing about shooting up the city and whatever your imagination has dreamed up.



BTW: On the topic of training and you trying to make me look like the problem. And you rambling about who should not own guns. The detroit swat team entered the wrong apartment this morning withflash bangs, There is a 7 year girl dead now, by a bullet from a swat members gun.

Work that into your idea of who should not have guns speech for us.
  #43  
Old 05-17-2010, 02:34 AM
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So, what exactly is a trained gun owner, and what is a responsible gun owner? I consider myself a responsible gun owner but I don't believe I am trained.

To me being trained means that you have attended a class such as Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, or something similar. I do not believe that everyone who wants to own a gun should have to go to one of these schools for training. Would they benefit from it, absolutely, that doesn't mean they are a moron and can't handle a gun safely without it.

I know the rules of gun safety, I practice drawing from concealment, tap rack drills, moving while firing, and so forth. I think this makes me more prepared and responsible but I do not consider myself "trained". If people follow gun safety rules then I do not think they need to be trained to be a safe and responsible gun owner.

I don't see how having one shot come from your gun in a life threating situation could possibly be worse than having no shots come from your gun. The argument that you wont know what to do from slide lock is silly. Practice by having a friend load your mags with snap caps randomly and do tap rack drills. If you do this you will have the motorskills ingrained into your body and it will be automatic problem solved.

Now on the other hand if someone pulls their mag disconnect equiped gun out to use it and the mag isn't fully seated and nothing happens when they pull the trigger how could this possibly be better than the other scenario? You still have a gun thats worth about as much as a rock, and if you panic like you seem to think everyone will you have the same problem as you would without the mag safety only you got no shots off instead of one. Again if you practice tap rack drills you have solved the same problem that the other guy had only you didn't get that first round off that may have stopped or slowed your attacker down enough to keep him from chopping you up with a machete.

So in my opinion the slide lock argument for the mag safety makes absolutly zero sense, and the only argument I can see for it is when an officer is fighting for or has already had his gun taken. Fine I can live with that if the police want them for this feature great for them. The situation in which this feature would be good for me I can not see at all, it's not as useless to me as the firing pin safety that I disabled on my 1911 but it almost is.
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  #44  
Old 05-17-2010, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
I don't know why I am bothering since you are about 6 planets away from what i was saying.

First: This thread is about a mag safety correct?
Next: You say cops lives are saved by the mag safety, correct?

Finally: Are these cops trained to push the mag release to disable the gun in a fight? That would mean they are trained Right?

How many Non cops are trained to push a mag release in the event of a fight? So they are untrained right?

I never said a thing about shooting up the city and whatever your imagination has dreamed up.



BTW: On the topic of training and you trying to make me look like the problem. And you rambling about who should not own guns. The detroit swat team entered the wrong apartment this morning withflash bangs, There is a 7 year girl dead now, by a bullet from a swat members gun.

Work that into your idea of who should not have guns speech for us.
We weren't "trained" to hit the mag release. We were instructed in its use when we were issued our pistols. Quite frankly, it is pretty much instinct. Someone goes for your gun, you hand immediately flies to the weapon to retain it. We never ran drills or anything.

Secondly, Detroit is a high crime city. Raids like the one you mention occasionally have unfortunate resolutions. And since we don't know the circumstances of how that round was fired, I choose to wait until i have more facts before I castigate the officer. But your bias is shining right through this computer screen.

And I'm not trying to say who should have guns. i think any citizen with a clean record should be able to own and carry a gun. If you took the time to find out, you would find that most cops feel the same way.

And I never said only cops have been saved by the mag release. I said I know 2 who have. I'm sure many civilians have as well. i recall a special on HBO about guns. it was extremely biased (as you would expect from HBO), but one of the cases sticks to mind. 15 year old boy finds his Dad's Walther PPK. He and his friend go outside to shoot it, and let one round off across the lake. They take the mag out, and one kid (unschooled in the use of firearms, of course), points the gun at his friend and BLAM. DOA. My own friend is another. 2 years of a loaded gun sitting in a draw, and he thinks it's unloaded all that time. THAT is what I mean by "untrained". I'm not talking about some weekend warrior who goes to Blackwater or Thunder ranch and walks around with Molle gear all weekend. I'm talking about people who at the least have taken a basic NRA course, or been instructed by someone who has (like I plan to do with my son when he's old enough). You know several guys who hit the mag release on the draw, and one who forgot to take the safety off during a robbery. You know another who neglected to check the chamber of his weapon before pointing it at a dishwasher and firing a shot, and you expect anybody here to take your opinion as gospel? Those guys obviously are not competent in the use of firearms. You're gonna tell me that it was at some training class? Good. That's why those people are there. To have an instructor school them in the proper hand placement on the draw. Or maybe to advise them that the weapon they have chosen is not the right size for their hand, making it more likely that they will hit the mag release. I've seen some of those people in those classes. little old ladies or recently divorced women who are afraid of their ex's. Good for them that they are getting some instruction, but don't use them as examples of what could happen.

Mag releases have saved more people than have hurt them.
  #45  
Old 05-17-2010, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by LuddhaBuddha View Post
So, what exactly is a trained gun owner, and what is a responsible gun owner? I consider myself a responsible gun owner but I don't believe I am trained.

To me being trained means that you have attended a class such as Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, or something similar. I do not believe that everyone who wants to own a gun should have to go to one of these schools for training. Would they benefit from it, absolutely, that doesn't mean they are a moron and can't handle a gun safely without it.

I know the rules of gun safety, I practice drawing from concealment, tap rack drills, moving while firing, and so forth. I think this makes me more prepared and responsible but I do not consider myself "trained". If people follow gun safety rules then I do not think they need to be trained to be a safe and responsible gun owner.

I don't see how having one shot come from your gun in a life threating situation could possibly be worse than having no shots come from your gun. The argument that you wont know what to do from slide lock is silly. Practice by having a friend load your mags with snap caps randomly and do tap rack drills. If you do this you will have the motorskills ingrained into your body and it will be automatic problem solved.

Now on the other hand if someone pulls their mag disconnect equiped gun out to use it and the mag isn't fully seated and nothing happens when they pull the trigger how could this possibly be better than the other scenario? You still have a gun thats worth about as much as a rock, and if you panic like you seem to think everyone will you have the same problem as you would without the mag safety only you got no shots off instead of one. Again if you practice tap rack drills you have solved the same problem that the other guy had only you didn't get that first round off that may have stopped or slowed your attacker down enough to keep him from chopping you up with a machete.

So in my opinion the slide lock argument for the mag safety makes absolutly zero sense, and the only argument I can see for it is when an officer is fighting for or has already had his gun taken. Fine I can live with that if the police want them for this feature great for them. The situation in which this feature would be good for me I can not see at all, it's not as useless to me as the firing pin safety that I disabled on my 1911 but it almost is.



Those schools are largely scams, if you ask me. You pay lots of money to pretend you're Rambo for the weekend. Again, just my opinion. Last week on SWAT TV, they were at the SIG Sauer Academy teaching a bunch of Rambo wanna-be's what to do in the event of a terrorist attack. One of the instructors gets up holding an AK. he says "This is the weapon they will be using. If you can shoot one of them with your pistol, take their weapon and make it work against them". Who the hell is going to go up against a bunch of terrorists with a pistol, then take their Ak's and engage them with that? Pure fantasy.

And the slide lock argument was valid, but you just lack the experience to support it. The odds of you remembering to tactically reload are almost non-existent. even Buff, the robbery homicide cop who was kind enough to contribute his real world experiences, could only say 'about how many rounds he fired" and only tactically reloaded after the shooting was done before he reholstered. If you think you're going to remember to reload during a gunfight that you almost certainly won't ever get into, you are mistaken, ESPECIALLY since you haven't had any formal instruction. And you will be so terrified that you will probably drop the mag, or try to put it in backwards If you do, that one shot MIGHT stop the attacker, but in my experience seeing many people shot, it probably won't. Now you have an empty gun that will require two hands to reload since the slide isn't locked back. And you very well might not even realize the gun is empty, since the slide isn't locked back.
  #46  
Old 05-17-2010, 11:50 AM
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I never said anything about a tactical reload what I said was in the instance of a malfunction with a gun a tap-rack-ready is always the first thing you should do. If your gun is not working because the mag isn't seated or you have a dud round in the chamber which would be the two most common malfunctions. You will get back up and running by hitting the bottom of the magazine to make sure it is seated and racking the slide to make sure that a possible bad round or no round is replaced.

As I already said if you go to the range with a freind have them load a random mag with a snap cap you can practice malfuction drills. If you already have it ingrained in your motor fuction skills to do the tap rack procedure whenever the gun doesn't go bang, it wont matter how scared ****less you are, you are going to do it. Since you seem to be so concerned with using two hands to load a gun exactly how would you fix an unseated mag with one hand?

I do not understand how you seem to assume that you know what I or anyone else will do in a given situation, we are all different and respond differently to different situations. What real world experience do I need exactly to understand that if my gun isn't making loud booming sounds when I pull the trigger that something is wrong?

You seem to have a predjudice against what you call "weekend warriors" but are really just everyday people that want some instruction by people who either still train or have trained law enforcement and military personnel. There are a lot of private contractors who go to these training schools between contracts to keep themselfs sharp, would they be doing this if these schools are scams? To me you come off as having a very low opinion of people who are not in law enforcement, and think that all of our opinions can not be legit because we are clueless morons that should just leave everything up to the all knowing perfect police out there.

Last edited by LuddhaBuddha; 05-17-2010 at 12:01 PM.
  #47  
Old 05-17-2010, 03:37 PM
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kbm6893,
Enjoy your mag disconnect. I am positive that Jesus Christ himself would not be able to tell you they can be a disadvantage to some people with out you knowing more.
I made a comment about the locks on S&W revolvers being a bad idea and a fan boy of those had every excuse in the world why I was wrong. I posted a video of one malfunctioning that I saw with my own eyes and he still said I was wrong, just like you are doing in this case.

So as I said enjoy and I hope one doesn't ever let you down.


BTW:
Quote:
Secondly, Detroit is a high crime city. Raids like the one you mention occasionally have unfortunate resolutions. And since we don't know the circumstances of how that round was fired, I choose to wait until i have more facts before I castigate the officer. But your bias is shining right through this computer screen.
Your comments are again about 6 planets away from reality. You said untrained people, should not have guns. I showed that a (highly trained mind you)swat members gun killed a 7 year old.
Bias this!
It was used as an example to prove you were wrong but you twist that however you want.

Last edited by Super Trucker; 05-17-2010 at 03:47 PM.
  #48  
Old 05-17-2010, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuddhaBuddha View Post
I never said anything about a tactical reload what I said was in the instance of a malfunction with a gun a tap-rack-ready is always the first thing you should do. If your gun is not working because the mag isn't seated or you have a dud round in the chamber which would be the two most common malfunctions. You will get back up and running by hitting the bottom of the magazine to make sure it is seated and racking the slide to make sure that a possible bad round or no round is replaced.

As I already said if you go to the range with a freind have them load a random mag with a snap cap you can practice malfuction drills. If you already have it ingrained in your motor fuction skills to do the tap rack procedure whenever the gun doesn't go bang, it wont matter how scared ****less you are, you are going to do it. Since you seem to be so concerned with using two hands to load a gun exactly how would you fix an unseated mag with one hand?

I do not understand how you seem to assume that you know what I or anyone else will do in a given situation, we are all different and respond differently to different situations. What real world experience do I need exactly to understand that if my gun isn't making loud booming sounds when I pull the trigger that something is wrong?

You seem to have a predjudice against what you call "weekend warriors" but are really just everyday people that want some instruction by people who either still train or have trained law enforcement and military personnel. There are a lot of private contractors who go to these training schools between contracts to keep themselfs sharp, would they be doing this if these schools are scams? To me you come off as having a very low opinion of people who are not in law enforcement, and think that all of our opinions can not be legit because we are clueless morons that should just leave everything up to the all knowing perfect police out there.
I do tap rack drills at the range. Sorry, but unless you do them ALOT, you're not going to have that ingrained in your muscle memory. Think you'd be as smooth when somebody is shooting at you? Ever try to get your key in the ignition when you are panicking? Not so easy, is it?

Look, the mag being unseated is a very rare occurence. I've shot a lot, and I haven't seen it. Mag catches are pretty stiff.
  #49  
Old 05-17-2010, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
kbm6893,
Enjoy your mag disconnect. I am positive that Jesus Christ himself would not be able to tell you they can be a disadvantage to some people with out you knowing more.
I made a comment about the locks on S&W revolvers being a bad idea and a fan boy of those had every excuse in the world why I was wrong. I posted a video of one malfunctioning that I saw with my own eyes and he still said I was wrong, just like you are doing in this case.

So as I said enjoy and I hope one doesn't ever let you down.


BTW:
Your comments are again about 6 planets away from reality. You said untrained people, should not have guns. I showed that a (highly trained mind you)swat members gun killed a 7 year old.
Bias this!
It was used as an example to prove you were wrong but you twist that however you want.
I read the article about the raid. It wasn't the wrong apartment. The homicide fugitive was in that apartment and arrested. The SWAT officer had a "physical confrontation" with the 46 year old grandmother of the child. A round was fired. Unfortunate, for sure. I don't know if it was the cop's finger on that trigger or the grandmother. What i DO know is that the residents of that house had a murder suspect in there, and THAT is what caused the death of that little girl.

But you take the word of the bad guys over the cops.

And I am against the lock on S&W revolvers. i think they are ugly, and the recoil of a weapon MAY cause it to engage when it shouldn't. Not the same system as the mag disconnect.
  #50  
Old 05-17-2010, 03:59 PM
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I'm pretty sure those with an opinion on the pro's and con's of having a pistol with a magazine disconnect/safety have posted their thoughts on it.
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