S&W Magazine disconnect feature.

Greetings, S&W Semi-auto shooters,

I have a question for you all, if I may. I have never own an S&W semi-auto, but would like to consider one. However, I have heard that semi-autos from S&W all feature an additional safety in the form of a magazine disconnect. If I understand this correctly, that would mean that the pistol will not fire if the magazine is removed, even if a round is in the chamber. Is that right?

I have never owned a firearm with this feature, and wonder how you all feel about that "safety". I would like to be able to fire the gun, even if all I had was the one round in the chamber. I do understand the safety issue about it, but think the inability to fire the pistol without the magazine inserted is also a safety issue.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, as you, being owners of such firearms, can best educate me on this topic. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and comments. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

None of the 1911s do, you can get the M&P line with a mag safety but most don't, I believe some of the 3rd gen autos do, and as far as I know all of the 22a pistols have them.

I personally wouldn't want one and the only gun I've owned that did have it was a 22a and it was easily removed. I can see why some cops like them, incase the bad guy gets your gun and doesn't know how to work it, there is a chance he will hit the mag release trying to get it off safe. For a concealed carry gun, the bad guy shouldn't know that you have a gun unless you're pointing it at him so it shouldn't come in play at all.

I never understood the aversion to the magazine safety. The odds of you firing a weapon in self defense are astronomical (unless you're Jack Bauer or something). If you DO fire a gun in SD, you're not gonna be counting shots. You're gonna pull the trigger until the gun is empty, and you may not even realize the gun IS empty. So you're not gonna be reloading a still loaded gun in the middle of a shootout. If you DO attempt this, it takes MAYBE 2 seconds to drop a partially full mag and seat a new one. The odds of you needing that one round in those two seconds is even more astronomical than if you get into a shooting at all (and this is assuming that you will have the presense of mind to drop a still loaded mag during a shootout). And even if you do, pistol shots aren't one shot, instant stoppers (unless you hit the brain. Good luck with that). So even if you get that one shot off, now you have an empty gun that still needs a reload, except now the slide is not locked back, so it will take 2 hands to load and rack the slide, all while someone is still coming at you.

On the other hand, the odds are MUCH higher that mag disconnect can save you. In the struggle for a gun, you're probably gonna lose (and please don't chime in with the "my tactical awareness is always at 100%, and if you let someone get that close to you, you need to work on tactics" comment. Nobody is that tactically aware all the time. Try getting the kids into the mini-van without them killing each other over a DS game.) Most robberies are in your face, push up close. Dropping the mag makes the gun inert if you feel you are about to lose it. I personally know 2 cops who are here today because of the mag disconnect. That's why S&W made the safety, since cops were their biggest clients for the 3rd gen guns. Not to mention that if you store the mag outside of the gun, the gun is inert. Nice plus if you have kids around, or a wife who really doesn't want to learn how to shoot and won't touch the things. Sure, I keep them locked up, but one extra layer of safety is OK in my book.

Do a search. Tell me how many people were shot because the couldn't reload their gun during a shootout when they had one round in the chamber, vs the amount saved by the disconnect.

Only downside to them is if you are going to use the gun in competion. IDPA rules are to drop the mag, rack the slide several times, and then pull the trigger before holstering. Mag disconnect prevents this.

I have a magazine disconnect on my 4506-1. Civilian concealed carry is non-existent in New Jersey, so if it’s the pistol that I keep for home protection, I have to unload it, and the magazines, before taking it to the range. Considering that I load/unload the weapon at least 4 times a year, that feature, and the safety de-cocker, add a level of functional protection that I feel comfortable with.

I have guns both ways and really don't give the feature much attention. On the S&Ws' it doesn't have any effect on trigger pull, unlike say a Browning Hi-Power. I do remove it from guns that I use in IDPA/USPSA just for ease of operation. If given the choice I buy guns without the feature but I try not to out think the whole thing.

The odds of you firing a weapon in self defense are astronomical (unless you're Jack Bauer or something). If you DO fire a gun in SD, you're not gonna be counting shots. You're gonna pull the trigger until the gun is empty, and you may not even realize the gun IS empty. So you're not gonna be reloading a still loaded gun in the middle of a shootout. If you DO attempt this, it takes MAYBE 2 seconds to drop a partially full mag and seat a new one. The odds of you needing that one round in those two seconds is even more astronomical than if you get into a shooting at all (and this is assuming that you will have the presense of mind to drop a still loaded mag during a shootout). And even if you do, pistol shots aren't one shot, instant stoppers (unless you hit the brain. Good luck with that). So even if you get that one shot off, now you have an empty gun that still needs a reload, except now the slide is not locked back, so it will take 2 hands to load and rack the slide, all while someone is still coming at you.

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On the other hand, the odds are MUCH higher that mag disconnect can save you. In the struggle for a gun, you're probably gonna lose (and please don't chime in with the "my tactical awareness is always at 100%, and if you let someone get that close to you, you need to work on tactics" comment. Nobody is that tactically aware all the time. Try getting the kids into the mini-van without them killing each other over a DS game.) Most robberies are in your face, push up close. Dropping the mag makes the gun inert if you feel you are about to lose it. I personally know 2 cops who are here today because of the mag disconnect. That's why S&W made the safety, since cops were their biggest clients for the 3rd gen guns. Not to mention that if you store the mag outside of the gun, the gun is inert. Nice plus if you have kids around, or a wife who really doesn't want to learn how to shoot and won't touch the things. Sure, I keep them locked up, but one extra layer of safety is OK in my book.

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That was worth posting again. And it represented my sentiments exactly. It's hard on the internet to distinguish the difference between reality, forum commandos and what is tacticool. The magazine disconnect safety is one of this issues often clouded by the latter two.

Well said kbm6893. My thoughts on this topic as well. Regards 18DAI.

kbm6893 said:

Only downside to them is if you are going to use the gun in competion. IDPA rules are to drop the mag, rack the slide several times, and then pull the trigger before holstering. Mag disconnect prevents this.

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I disagree, I can still pull the trigger.

It just goes back easier



I never had an issue with the mag disconnect, and liked them for the reasons already stated since I carried my 4506 on duty.

I like the feature because it serves as a "kill" switch on the gun. If I am struggling for my gun, I can disable the gun by simply hitting the magazine release.

Some folks criticize the Smith because the safety works the "wrong way".

1. My gun has the saftey off when holstered.

2. I only use the safety if the gun is out of the holster. i.e. under the seat when I go in the courthouse.

3. If you can't get it right after two or three repetitions, you probably should not be playing with gun.

I

have never owned a firearm with this feature, and wonder how you all feel about that "safety". I would like to be able to fire the gun, even if all I had was the one round in the chamber. I do understand the safety issue about it, but think the inability to fire the pistol without the magazine inserted is also a safety issue.

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S&W allows a choice in their current pistols, so just pick the one you want.

For action pistol competitions, you do NOT want a magazine safety. I was once grabbed by a senior IPSC RO who did not understand why I was putting an empty magazine back into a Hi Power to drop the hammer. They expect you to drop the slide, drop the hammer, holster, and get out of the way, and don't want to hear about magazine disconnects. I put a cylinder and slide trigger in the Hi Power (it does not have the magazine disconnect)

Arguing whether the magazine "safety" truly adds safety is like arguing politics: avid proponents vs avid opponents is not a pretty sight, and not much information passes. In spite of what you hear from the devoted, magazine disconnects have both prevented and caused accidents. I personally know a fellow who killed his washer by putting an empty magazine into an "empty?" gun and testing the trigger. Dropping the magazine in a retention struggle has prevented shootings.

You pays your money and you makes your choices.

Good Morning, Guys,

Many thanks for your cogent thoughts and comments on this topic. It's all new to me, as I've never owned a firearm that had this feature. So, it's wonderful to hear from so many who have, and do, use pistols with the mag safety. I suppose it's rather like the first time I got a Sig pistol. I had to get used to the first, long, harder trigger pull, then get the more "normal" trigger pull for all the rest of the shots. I did get used to it, and that was just a matter of training and practice. After reading your thoughts on this, I would imagine that having a mag safety is much the same thing. Training and practice equals no problem. Thanks, again, for your thought, Friends. Good points, all, on both sides. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

For the record, the Second Gen guns also have this feature, as on my 639. I don't mind the mag disconnect feature for a carry gun for the previously posted reasons. My 639 is not used as a carry gun but rather as a range/competition gun and the mag disconnect feature can be bothersome. Range rules require you to "dry fire" on an empty chamber before you bag or holster the gun. You must have an empty mag to insert into the gun to do this and then remove it prior to bag/holster. Just another step to remember. I would like to remove this feature form mine as it is not a carry weapon. My favorite gunsmith will not remove any factory "safety devise" as a matter of avoiding liability. He did "smooth" the trigger and action and install new sights with dovetails. Guess I need to find another 'smith for this work.

OKFC05 said:

I personally know a fellow who killed his washer by putting an empty magazine into an "empty?" gun and testing the trigger.

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He failed at gun safety

OKFC05 said:

...You pays your money and you makes your choices.

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That's the bottom line. Both types have advantages and disadvantages.

I happen to like magazine disconnects, but, depending on what I am doing with the particular gun, can live with a pistol that doesn't have one - and sometimes prefer it that way. I certainly don't need one on a pistol used only for target shooting.

A lot of whether the mechanism serves you well or not mainly depends on what you use the gun for. In your OP, you don't say what pistol you are considering. The M&Ps, for example, I gather can be changed back and forth if you want, but of course a pistol not equipped with one when shipped will have the slide markings, which may or may not matter to you.

screed on mag safeties

I tend to like magazine safeties, for many of the reasons stated above. It's not a deal killer for me; I've owned and used 1911's for more than 40 years and they don't have them.

I do however have a problem with removing magazine safeties from guns which were designed with them. If you do so, you are changing the manual of arms of that weapon in a way that is not obvious to casual inspection. That is a safety issue.

This issue probably arises most often with Browning Hi Powers. The magazine safety does affect trigger pull and prevents the magazine from dropping free (this, by the way, is not a bug, it's a feature). If you are familiar with the type, you can tell almost immediately if this modification has been done and you would probably know how common it is. That's one "if" and one "probably", which might be one too many of each. On other types, it is not obvious. Of course, you can always test by absolutely clearing the pistol, pointing the empty pistol in a safe direction, removing the magazine, and pulling the trigger, and seeing what happens. Well and good, if someone thinks to do it.

You will note that I have included what amounts to a safety lecture/disclaimer in a forum posting directed at people who are probably much more aware of safety issues than the general public. A little paranoid? Perhaps, but this stuff, like e-mail, never goes away, and I have no control over where it might end up. Like wise, I have no absolute control over where my guns might end up. I have heard people say "It's my gun and I know how it's been modified and no one else is going to use it. If I sell it I can always reinstall the mag safety". Probably. Maybe. But you can't be totally sure under what circumstances that deadly weapon will be used or by whom. Things happen that no reasonable person would expect. They will happen with or without your permission. If nothing else, when you die, your control over your guns ends; doesn't matter what it says in your will.

I know many people will disagree with this, considering the removal of a magazine safety to be a useful and reasonable modification. That is certainly their choice to make. For me, if it came with one, I'll leave it in place.

Charles

OKFC05 said:

I

S&W allows a choice in their current pistols, so just pick the one you want.

For action pistol competitions, you do NOT want a magazine safety. I was once grabbed by a senior IPSC RO who did not understand why I was putting an empty magazine back into a Hi Power to drop the hammer. They expect you to drop the slide, drop the hammer, holster, and get out of the way, and don't want to hear about magazine disconnects. I put a cylinder and slide trigger in the Hi Power (it does not have the magazine disconnect)

Arguing whether the magazine "safety" truly adds safety is like arguing politics: avid proponents vs avid opponents is not a pretty sight, and not much information passes. In spite of what you hear from the devoted, magazine disconnects have both prevented and caused accidents. I personally know a fellow who killed his washer by putting an empty magazine into an "empty?" gun and testing the trigger. Dropping the magazine in a retention struggle has prevented shootings.

You pays your money and you makes your choices.

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The only way that a mag disconnect CAUSED an accident, is by somebody intentianlly pulling a trigger with a mag in the gun. That person must be an idiot. Why would you assume the chamber is unloaded?

I'm sure a few accidents have been caused by having a mag disconnect, but FAR MORE have been prevented. Hey, a few people have been killed because their seatbelt prevented them from getting out of a burning or sinking car, but WAY MORE have been saved by those seatbelts.

I fail to see how removing the mag safety makes the gun any less safe for me or someone who could potentially aquire my gun after I die. If you follow the rules of gun safety there is no way that having or not having a mag safety is going to make a gun less safe.

I also don't remove the mag safety because I'm afraid I'll need that round in the chamber during a reload. I remove them because they are an extra, and IMO unnecessary piece that leaves one more thing that could break and screw up your gun right when you need it most. Why would you make something more complicated than it needs to be?

I've already said I can understand why police who have exposed guns would want them. If you are carrying your gun concealed then a potential snatcher should not know that you have a gun to take. If you feel it necessary to pull that gun out, then you must feel that your life is in danger and should be shooting the person not wrestling with them.

As for the seatbelt issue I'm sure that plenty more lives have been saved than have been killed by them. I feel that I as an adult should not be fined and harrased by police for putting my life and my life alone in danger by not wearing a seatbelt.

The main objection I have with magazine disconnects is that the pistol will not fire IF THE MAGAZINE IS NOT FULLY SEATED!!! There have been incidents where this has happened, either because the mag wasn't inserted with enough force, or the release button was bumped sometime after the magazine was inserted. Some badly designed and/or modified holsters will do this.

In the early days of the Model 39, two cops on an eastern police department were shot while trying to shoot back at their antagonist but their -39's failed to fire because their mags were slightly unseated. Investigation showed their issued holsters likely bumped the release buttons. S&W settled the resulting lawsuits out of court and then doubled the strength of the mag release catch spring to make a repeat of this less likely.

All that said, pick a pistol that has the design characteristics you like and place value upon. What may be a desirable feature in one circumstance may be disadvantageous in another.

If I decided to carry a S&W pistol so equipped, I don't think I would worry much about it. The system they have is now pretty reliable.

Hi Doc.I have a Chief's Special in 9mm with the magazine disconnect feature.I am also a NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and Chief Range Safety Officer.You are correct in the assertion if the magazine is removed the gun will not fire.As a safety issue for Law enforcement and Civilians there are two schools of thought.The first scenerio is when a perp is in a position to get control of your pistol.By dropping the mag all he will have is a two pound club.@ this time you draw your BUG and take control of the situation.The other is when a cop or licenced civilian "accidentally drops his/her mag or the perp sucessfully hits the release.The gun will be deactivated but when this happens the person will go for thier reload mag,reinsert it and take care of buisness.Without the safety you would have 1 shot to use and yes thier is a delay in going for the reload mag hence the dilemma.The answer lies in the hands of the user and exactly what the gun is used for be it duty or Concealed Carry Mode.I routinely will practice a "Dropped Magazine" drill where I get my reload and reinsert it this way if it happens I can deal with it.From a Instructor standpoint I have seen a few accidental discharges from failure to eject the chambered round and pulling the trigger "a la Glock" to break it down.When teaching Glock fans in First Steps courses I have them drop the mag and rack the slide three times.Next I have them lock the slide and manually and visually check the chamber, mag areas,and remove all live ammo from the area before dry firing.If you had a mag safety this type of AD could be prevented.The only problem I have with Glock is having to dry fire as a condition of breakdown and the Polymer thing.Hope I covered this subject to your satisfaction.God Bless....Mike

Good Morning, Mike, and All,

Again, more outstanding comments and thoughts on all this. I remember, "back in the day", reading about some LEO's that were shot whilst reloading, and because of a mag safety, could not fire the one shot they have left up the spout. Interesting, how something read so long ago could color my thinking today, isn't it?! I also remember shooting a few Browning Hi-Powers, and all of them had horrible trigger pulls. Nice to know that the S&W guns have not had their triggers effected by the mag safety. One of the things that I really like about this forum, is that many of it's inhabitants have "been there, done that, and have the T-shirt". So, for those of us who have questions, we can ask and receive a plethora of outstanding answers. This is a valuable resource. As for myself, it seems the older I get, and the more I learn, the less I actually "know", anymore! Thanks, again, Folks! Much appreciated! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc