S&W Magazine disconnect feature.

[Super Trucker]

Point missed. Not worth the effort.

 

[kbm6893]

With that attitude, I hope you are not the person that has the mag drop button pushed when he draws in an emergency. If the mag is not fully seated you have a expensive rock.
And yes I have seen this happen in training classes, but since I am not into gun fights on a regular basis I have not seen it in real life.


I like how the new S&W guns that have the OPTION for those that may not want it.

I would bet one dollar that NON police are the biggest carrier of 3rd gen guns today, are you positive that they have the training to not get killed becuse of that "safety" feature?

BTW: dead citazens don't make the news like dead cops, so again are you positive that the safety feature is all that great? Seems like if it was all that grat it wouldn't be an option on new guns!

So you're equating a person who doesn't visually check a weapon before pulling the trigger (first rule of gun safety) with a cop whose mag release was accidentaly hit, allowing the cop's mag to become slightly unseated, making the weapon useless? How often does that happen? I can say that after carrying a Glock 19, and a S&W 5946 3rd gen, and getting out of a police car thousands of times, that that has not happned to me, or any other cop I know, EVER. Can it happen? Sure. But the odds of it happening are extremely low. The benefits outweigh the potential, highly unlikely, drawbacks. And since you have attending training classes, did your instructors ever tell you that one shot before the gun goes dead without even a slidelock, is almost as bad as a gun that has the mag slightly out, preventing that mag to fire? You think that one shot is going to stop an assailant? I've seen people shot 6-7 times and they are still a threat.

And dead civilians whose gun malfunctions in a shooting make the news just as much as cops. You don't see them in the paper very often because civilians RARELY get into shootings, and their guns usually work just fine when they do.

And yes, a person who pulls the trigger without checking the chamber is an idiot. No other way to describe him that would be allowed on this forum. That dishwasher could just as easily have been a wall with an innocent person behind it.

 

[Super Trucker]

Point missed. Not worth the effort.

 

[kbm6893]

I was not talking about people not checking the chamber, but since you thought I was I agree with what you said.

I was talking about the mag safety not always being a "safety" feature for NON cops who are not trained. I have seen more then one person pull a gun from a holster and the mag hit the ground, I am not saying you are lying but it does happen.
As far as one round being fired as opposed to none, I mean really did you actually say that?

I don't think anybody said one round was going to stop every threat every time, but from the sounds of what you are saying NO rounds are better then one?

I am happy you feel that it is a GOOD feature, not everybody will always agree with your opinion, such as this case.

Again I ask if it is such a great thing, why is it an option on the newer S&W guns?

I honestly wish there was a detailed description on how to remove the mag disconnect from 3rd Gen guns, like there is for the M&P's. I would remove them from mine.

If you are ever in the Detroit area, let me know and I will introduce you to a guy I used to work with that got robbed and his gun taken from him after he drew it on the robber, because he was too stupid to turn off the safety? That NEVER made the news.

I believe that you are NOT thinking about untrained people carrying the 3rd gen guys. (which in 2010 is the majority)

That feature might have been the greatest thing to trained cops, but not so great with untrained people IMO.


I think its fair to say, we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

First of all, NOBODY who carries a gun should be untrained. If they don't want to take the time to train with a weapon, they shouldn't carry one.


Second of all, if a friend of yours pulled a gun and forgot to take off the safety, he's an idiot and shouldn't be carrying that weapon.

And no, I don't think that one round is worse than none, but i DO know that a handgun round will NOT stop an attacker, unless it's in the head, and since a trained person like myself knows that a head shot under pressure is very unlikely, what will your untrained friend do when he realizes that his gun is empty and his slide isn't locked back? Most likely, he will continue to "pull the bangy thing and wonder where the boom is". So yes, I think firing one round and the being empty with non-slide lock is worse than not firing that one shot. Because a trained person like myself will tell you that you probably won't even know you are empty when that slide doesn't lock back

Come on, man. Your argument against having mag disconnects is "untrained people need to carry something, too". How about your untrained friends actually learn how to safey carry and use the deadly weapon they carry?

Are you for real?

 

[Big bullit]

I want to thank KBM6893 for that informnation. i never gave the mag disconnect a second thaught untill my recent purchase of a 908 s&w. its the first gun i have ever owned that had a mag disconnect. i hated it, i thought it was the dumbest thing ever, i wanted to figure a way around it. but after reading KBM6893s assesment of the whole thing i have done a compleat 180! that was the best argument for a mag disconnect i could consider. i now wish all my pistols had one. thank you for that honest to the point assesment and thank you for your expertise on the subject. this is exactly why i joined this forum. thank you again, BB

 

[Super Trucker]

Point missed. Not worth the effort.

 

[Cruiser RN]

I was wondering what state in this land of ours allows untrained individuals to get a pistol license and carry a gun.If someone is untrained they shouldn't have a gun period because having one will likely result in thier demise or that of a innocent bystander.I was a double action revolver shooter for many years and took the plunge into semi-autos after I became a firearms instructor and picked the CS9 because of a magazine disconnect .To me it is another level of safety.I also bought a safe direction armor board because it will stop 1 Unintentional discharge if it were to occur.I also did the DAO conversion because I like that trigger configuration.It baffles me that a gun company would make it where you need to pull the trigger to break it down "A LA GLOCK".That is a accident waiting to happen.Like I had said before the ultimate decision lies with the owner and there is plenty of valid points for both camps to agree to disaagree on this issue.God Bless......Mike

 

[mlk18]

The mag disconnect safety is an option for the same reason the safety lever is, they are trying to market the gun to anyone and everyone. That was never a decision based on making the gun as safe as possible, it was decision based on selling as many guns as possible.

Believe it or not before I was a cop I was a civilian with a CCW (not for long, but I was). The first thing I did when I bought my S&W 915 was to enroll in a handgun course taught by a former Secret Service Agent and FI. Then I started carrying. I was not new to guns at all, but I was new to carry a gun concealed and using a handgun as a tool for self defense. My home state requires NOTHING to get a CCW, but that class was packed full of people. Some new to guns and some not so new.

You don't have to take the motorcycle safety course to drive a bike, but you and everyone else on the road are much better off if you do. Same thing with handguns. A lack of training equates to ignorance, ignorance equates to negligence, negligence gets people hurt or killed.

 

[BUFF]

"And no, I don't think that one round is worse than none, but i DO know that a handgun round will NOT stop an attacker, unless it's in the head,"

That is a silly statement. Sometimes it will, and sometimes it won't. Just how many people have you had to shoot several times because the first shot didn't get them to stop?

 

[WR Moore]

There's been some good points raised and some manure thrown. Briefly: there hasn't been a documented case of a magazine disconnector/safety causing a casualty in the US [certainly there have been no lawsuits filed by "victims" or their survivors], there have been quite a few people documented as having been saved by one.

S&W makes the disconnector optional because there are those who refuse to buy a weapon with the feature. Their choice. .

FWIW, I've seen nigh onto 2 million rounds go downrange from disconnector equipped S&W autos without any failures as a result of mechanics. The S&W designs do not require the magazine to be locked in place to fire. Failure to fully seat the magazine generally results in bang, whoops! Corrected by the same immediate action drill used in non disconnector equipped weapons where the magazine wasn't fully seated. Should you fail to seat the magzine sufficiently to activate the trigger, the disconnector probably prevented the magazine from hitting the deck after firing the chambered round. An event much harder to recover from than if the magazine is still in the well. Note: if there's a round in the chamber, you're doing a tactical reload, which is done from behind cover during a lull in the action. Where exactly is the threat?

I started out as an opponent of the device, accepted it as a necessary evil and have become a fan over almost 20 years.

 

[kbm6893]

That is what is so bad about these forums, some people never get the point of what you are saying.

NOWHERE did I say it was good to be untrained, but since I wasn't born yesterday I know most people don't bother.

I am going to ask you a third time now, IF THE MAG DISCONNECT IS SO WONDERFUL WHY IS IT AN OPTION ON THE M&P GUNS? (3rd gen replacement)

Sorry for the caps, but you conveniently have missed it a few times so I have to add a little emphasis.

BTW: you can drop the elite attitude, I have seen videos of cops screwing up (making idiot mistakes) during a shootout so keep that in mind, prior to making smug comments.

The disconnect is an option because some people don't want one, and many people use the M&P in competition shooting, where it is a bother, and in some cases not even allowed.

Many people also don't buy a handgun to carry, where the disconnect really shines. They buy to target shoot or just to keep around the house.

If you know several people who have drawn their guns and the mag hits the floor, and you can introduce me to a guy who failed to take his weapon off safe during a robbery, than you know alot of people who shouldn't be carrying a gun. I have never seen either of those situations.

That ONE bullet in the chamber MIGHT stop the assailant, but as i said above (and you say I don't read), is that the odds of you ever getting into a shootout are very high, and the odds of the mag becoming unseated are even higher, and the odds of you needing that one shot in the few seconds the gun is down thanks to the dropped mag even higher than that, and the odds of that one pistol shot ending the fight are even higher. You have a better shot at hitting the lottery.

I'm not elitist. Cops aren't perfect. I know that. But your posts are backed up by no facts, just experiences with untrained people. And if trained cops can make mistakes with their weapons, untrained people will make even more, and THAT is where the mag disconnect comes into play. I don't want some untrained person thinking his gun is empty since the mag is out and firing a shot. Those bullets end up somewhere. Sometimes in innocent people's bodies and not in dishwashers.

 

[kbm6893]

"And no, I don't think that one round is worse than none, but i DO know that a handgun round will NOT stop an attacker, unless it's in the head,"

That is a silly statement. Sometimes it will, and sometimes it won't. Just how many people have you had to shoot several times because the first shot didn't get them to stop?

Never shot anyone. Have seen many people shot. And one shot will not stop them (unless it's in the head). They can still pull their own triggers. They might die 30 minutes after they are shot, but rarely die in the blink of an eye..

 

[kbm6893]

I want to thank KBM6893 for that informnation. i never gave the mag disconnect a second thaught untill my recent purchase of a 908 s&w. its the first gun i have ever owned that had a mag disconnect. i hated it, i thought it was the dumbest thing ever, i wanted to figure a way around it. but after reading KBM6893s assesment of the whole thing i have done a compleat 180! that was the best argument for a mag disconnect i could consider. i now wish all my pistols had one. thank you for that honest to the point assesment and thank you for your expertise on the subject. this is exactly why i joined this forum. thank you again, BB

Thanks for the kind words, but I am no expert. Just someone who has carried a gun in real world situations. And based on my experiences, the disconnect is a fabulous feature that i wish was on my other 2 semi auto's (Beretta's). It's the reason my 6906 is my carry gun and the only gun kept with a loaded magazine in the house (locked away, of course). The beneifts FAR outweigh the perceived drawbacks (and I see ZERO drawbacks, personally).

 

[kbm6893]

The S&W designs do not require the magazine to be locked in place to fire. Failure to fully seat the magazine generally results in bang, whoops! Corrected by the same immediate action drill used in non disconnector equipped weapons where the magazine wasn't fully seated. Should you fail to seat the magzine sufficiently to activate the trigger, the disconnector probably prevented the magazine from hitting the deck after firing the chambered round. An event much harder to recover from than if the magazine is still in the well. Note: if there's a round in the chamber, you're doing a tactical reload, which is done from behind cover during a lull in the action. Where exactly is the threat?

I started out as an opponent of the device, accepted it as a necessary evil and have become a fan over almost 20 years.

My 6906 won't fire at all if the mag isn't fully seated. I just loaded the mag with snap caps and tried it. If it isn't fully seated with the audible click, the trigger won't operate.

I also note that it takes a fair amount of pressure to press the mag release, and even with the gun holstered, if the mag release is pressed, the mag ejects nearly 2 inches, to just past the 14 hole in the magazine (I use 5906 mags with the base plate adapter). All good features. If the mag release was somehow hit accidentally, the loud click and the mag ejecting out as far as it does would certainly not go unnoticed.

And I'm glad you brought up the tactical reload. Even if you decide to do it, you're not going to be doing it while you're exposed. You're gonna be doing it from cover. And i still believe that 99% of people in a shooting won't even think to do it. They'll just keep pulling that trigger.

 

[BUFF]

"Never shot anyone. Have seen many people shot. And one shot will not stop them (unless it's in the head)."

Well, I have shot people with handguns. I also worked the robbery-homicide detective squad of my state's largest law enforcement agency for years. I know firsthand that sometimes one shot stops the guy and sometimes it doesn't.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book on handgun stopping power was based on researching hundreds of police-involved shootings. They documented a large percentage of one shot stops with some handgun and cartridge combinations, some exceeding 90%.

"They might die 30 minutes after they are shot, but rarely die in the blink of an eye.."

Whether the shootee lives or dies is irrelevant to the discussion. Most people shot with handguns, probably 75%, live. Stopping the bad guy's acts is the goal, not killing him.

Also, to be more accurate, it isn't "head shots" that are the best stoppers, it is hits to the entire central nervous system, which is the brain and spinal cord. Lots of head shots aren't good stops because they don't impact the brain.

But, back to the discussion on magazine safeties...

No safety device should ever be considered as a substitute for proper gun handling.

Whether or not a magazine safety is good or bad depends on the user's totality of circumstances and personal preferences. While the handguns I carry daily don't have them, that factor wasn't part of my choice decision. If I carried a S&W autopistol so equipped, I wouldn't let it concern me much. S&W's system is pretty reliable.

 

[BUFF]

"Briefly: there hasn't been a documented case of a magazine disconnector/safety causing a casualty in the US [certainly there have been no lawsuits filed by "victims" or their survivors],"

Writer Massad Ayoob discussed the case I mentioned in an article he wrote. It wasn't a "what-if" discussion. I don't have the reference available. Perhaps he made it up. But I doubt that.

 

[Grog]

See guys, super trucker got butthurt and went home

 

[kbm6893]

"Never shot anyone. Have seen many people shot. And one shot will not stop them (unless it's in the head)."

Well, I have shot people with handguns. I also worked the robbery-homicide detective squad of my state's largest law enforcement agency for years. I know firsthand that sometimes one shot stops the guy and sometimes it doesn't.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book on handgun stopping power was based on researching hundreds of police-involved shootings. They documented a large percentage of one shot stops with some handgun and cartridge combinations, some exceeding 90%.

"They might die 30 minutes after they are shot, but rarely die in the blink of an eye.."

Whether the shootee lives or dies is irrelevant to the discussion. Most people shot with handguns, probably 75%, live. Stopping the bad guy's acts is the goal, not killing him.

Also, to be more accurate, it isn't "head shots" that are the best stoppers, it is hits to the entire central nervous system, which is the brain and spinal cord. Lots of head shots aren't good stops because they don't impact the brain.

But, back to the discussion on magazine safeties...

No safety device should ever be considered as a substitute for proper gun handling.

Whether or not a magazine safety is good or bad depends on the user's totality of circumstances and personal preferences. While the handguns I carry daily don't have them, that factor wasn't part of my choice decision. If I carried a S&W autopistol so equipped, I wouldn't let it concern me much. S&W's system is pretty reliable.

So you would agree that the "untrained people" that trucker says are the majority of carriers of S&W autos would benefit from the feature?

And since you have shot people (I have only shot a charging pitbuill. Not the same, I know), did you count your shots? Did you tactically reload in the middle of the shooting? Do you think you would have had the presense of mind to realize that your gun had only fired that one shot, and was now empty without slidelock, and then been able to reload and rack the slide? If so, how long do you think it would have taken you to register the proble, and fix it? My question is serious. Do you think you would have been able to respond to that situation while the bullets were still flying?

I think your experience on this would put an end to the debate. And do you know any fellow officers who have been saved by the disconnect. i do. Retired PD myself.. And by the way, you are right, I meant one shot stop, not kill. Still, I worked in one of the worst neighborhoods of NYC and i saw many people shot multiple times still in the fight. One guy took 5 .45's to the back while he was running from a robbery, and he dialed 911 himself!

 

[BUFF]

I don't think that any one person's experience, especially mine, will settle a discussion like this. Everybody's training and experience levels are different. Every armed encounter is different. Tell me what your next gunfight is going to be like, and I can tell you whether or not a mag safety MAY be helpful. Otherwise...

I never shot my gun to slidelock. I knew about how many shots I had fired. I did a tactical reload before holstering without thinking consciously about it, but the shooting was all over by then. It was likely a result of having had excellent instructors over the years and forming what I hoped were good habits.

I think that the kind of unintended disharges we are talking about here, and whether a mag safety would have helped prevent them or somehow may have contributed to them occurring, can't be settled for sure. Guns are dangerous. People shouldn't handle them without training. But, they do.

As someone once said, it is impossible to build a foolproof device because fools are so ingenious!

When a local department, the Salt Lake City P.D. issued Model 39's in the 1970's, an officer I knew was saved by the disconnect. He stopped a group of gypsies who jumped him, got his pistol away from him and beat him. He carried it with the safety/decocking lever in the 'safe' or down position, and during the process of trying to make his gun go off, they ejected the mag, which bounced under their car so they couldn't get at it. Luckily, they gave up trying to murder him at that point, throwing his gun into a roadside creek and leaving him.

I prefer that my handgun have some kind of manual safety device, to slow down the actions of someone else getting their hands on it, but I seem to be in the minority, judging from the popularity of Glocks and such.

If it were possible to PROVE that a mag safety was good or bad, it would have been done years ago, and all handguns would either have or not have them. But, every situation is different, every gun handler is different, and every gun buyer has to decide for themself which features they want. One can make good arguments for both positions.

 

[kbm6893]

I don't think that any one person's experience, especially mine, will settle a discussion like this. Everybody's training and experience levels are different. Every armed encounter is different. Tell me what your next gunfight is going to be like, and I can tell you whether or not a mag safety MAY be helpful. Otherwise...

I never shot my gun to slidelock. I knew about how many shots I had fired. I did a tactical reload before holstering without thinking consciously about it, but the shooting was all over by then. It was likely a result of having had excellent instructors over the years and forming what I hoped were good habits.

I think that the kind of unintended disharges we are talking about here, and whether a mag safety would have helped prevent them or somehow may have contributed to them occurring, can't be settled for sure. Guns are dangerous. People shouldn't handle them without training. But, they do.

As someone once said, it is impossible to build a foolproof device because fools are so ingenious!

When a local department, the Salt Lake City P.D. issued Model 39's in the 1970's, an officer I knew was saved by the disconnect. He stopped a group of gypsies who jumped him, got his pistol away from him and beat him. He carried it with the safety/decocking lever in the 'safe' or down position, and during the process of trying to make his gun go off, they ejected the mag, which bounced under their car so they couldn't get at it. Luckily, they gave up trying to murder him at that point, throwing his gun into a roadside creek and leaving him.

I prefer that my handgun have some kind of manual safety device, to slow down the actions of someone else getting their hands on it, but I seem to be in the minority, judging from the popularity of Glocks and such.

If it were possible to PROVE that a mag safety was good or bad, it would have been done years ago, and all handguns would either have or not have them. But, every situation is different, every gun handler is different, and every gun buyer has to decide for themself which features they want. One can make good arguments for both positions.

Thanks for the response. I think the one thing we DID settle here is an untrained person has no business owning or operating a firearm. And the problem is that MANY people who decide to make the choice to buy one don't take the time to use them, and unintended discharges will continue to occur. A good friend of mine has an XD9. He fired 200 rounds through it, reloaded it, (never cleaned it) and put it in his sock drawer. 2 years later, I am over there and insist he clean it. No mag in the gun, but one chambered. I ask him why, and he says "in case my daughter finds it, she can't fire it". 5 years after buying that gun, it has had 200 rounds through it.

In my opinion, the move away from manual safeties and mag disconnects is due to the large amount of untrained, unskilled shooters who elect to excercise their right to bear arms, yet don't want to take the time, or spend the ammo, to learn the weapon. Some of the new cars coming out will parralel park for you! Hey, why bother to learn how to do it when a machine will do it for you, right?