I'm in the process of finding a small semi auto for BUG use. Being familiar with the reliability and accuracy of the 3rd gen pistols, I'm leaning twards the CS guns.

Those of you that use these as a BUG or CCW gun, how are you carrying them? Vest holster? Ankle holster? Off hand IWB or OWB holster?

I've been playing with the XDs9 and XDs45. Not sure I like either of them. That grip safety, for a BUG, puts me off. I shot the Glock 36 and the Glock 27. The Glock 36 might be something I'd consider as an alternative to the CS guns. But the example I shot was not 100% reliable when I (and its owner) shot it. It was not pleasant to shoot either, for me. I prefer a 45 but might go with a 9mm. "shields" or any "m&p" are not options I would consider.

So tell me about your CS45, CS9 and even CS40 experience. Thanks! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I have all three CS pistols and always used a pocket holster.I now carry the .40 Cal.Shield most of the time.I use the ones made by DeSantis.
The pocket holster is simply my personal preference though.
As far as the CS series,In my opinion they are an excellent CCW pistol and of the three,I preferred the .45 Cal.

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JR

I have one and carried OWB. It's pretty heavy fully loaded, and too big for my pockets. Bigger gents might not have a problem. Big Dog slim grips and modified mag bottoms help with size a bit. Great pistol.

I never became interested in the CS40, myself.

I ordered an early production stainless CS45, and then later on I got a CS9 (after they'd changed over to steel sights & ambi safeties).

I like both guns well enough, but I tend to like the overall size and grip profile of the CS9 over the CS45. The CS45 has a somewhat chunky grip that's on the large end of things for my hand, but the CS9 feels as though they used my hand for a pattern when making the grip frame and Hogue grips.

FWIW, I tend to look at the Glock G36 (3.78" barrel) as being more comparable to the original 4513TSW (3.75" barrel) in overall size and magazine capacity.

The CS45 requires a specific magazine body that incorporates a set of added indentations below the lips, needed to keep the top round from becoming dislodged under recoil. It can also make them harder to load, due to the extra effort involved in pressing the rear of the rounds through the indentations (and makes unloading live rounds pretty difficult, upon occasion).

CS45 mag on the right & original 4513 mag on left:


The thick and blocky Hogue grips on the CS45 do help in controlling the gun during fast-paced shot strings, especially when I was still using +P loads back when the gun was new. (Nowadays I stick to one or another 230gr hollowpoint.)

The diminutive CS45 does require a solid grip & locked wrist in order to help prevent feeding issues, but that's pretty much true of any of the smallest .45's. A short slide run, reduced slide mass and increased cycling speed can play havoc with things if a good grip technique isn't being used. Those stubby, wide .45 bullets require some additional mechanical movement than the narrower 9's do.

I shoot the CS45 more than the CS9 simply because it seems to require more investment on my part in order to maintain my skillset with it (compared to the CS9). The CS45 has more snap & muzzle whip than my 4513's, and the 4513's seem to be more "forgiving" when it comes to a less-than-optimal grip and/or locked wrist.

My CS9 is a very pleasant little 9mm to shoot. If it makes sense, it provides a point of balance that's more rearward in my hand than my 3913, and less "muzzle heft" out in front of the hand. The CS9 points and tracks with a more "lively" balance.

The CS9 also has a nicely brisk & quick cycling, but without all that much increased snap & muzzle whip, even when shooting the +P+ & +P duty loads. A bit more noticeable than when shooting the same loads out of the 3913, but not to the degree that shooting hotter loads through the CS45 offers.

A nice feature of the CS9 is that it can use the 8-rd mags for the 3913 series as spares, unlike the CS45, which requires its own specific mags.

The CS9 & CS45 use the same magazine springs, followers & butt plate inserts as their larger model siblings (3913 & 4513/66). They can also use the original wide & fat TSW butt plates which shipped with the original subcompact TSW mags, as well as the curved butt plates.

The recoil springs are different for the calibers, and use single, flat-wound coil type springs (green for .45 & red for 9).

The older CS guns were shipped with blue/carbon steel slides and matching alloy frames, and then they released stainless slide versions. Plastic sights and single-side manual safeties were used.

As the model line continued they replaced the plastic sights with "standard" steel Novak Low Mount sights and ambi safeties.

I've seen both plastic (Nylon) and steel guide rod plungers used in the CS metal guide rods (same design used in the newer guide rods for the rest of the 3rd gen guns). I have both, and am currently using the plastic plungers, as I recall.

The mainsprings are shorter than the compact model springs.

The mag catches are the same used on the Value Line guns, being a plastic button (nut) that snaps over the left end of the steel mag catch body. It's a 1-time use button that must be replaced if ever removed. It's not adjustable like the 3rd gen mag catch buttons, and uses a different spring (no plunger, either).

I typically carry my CS9 & CS45 in OWB leather belt holsters (Hume H726's), although i have a nifty little Blade-Tech belt slide I had made for me many years ago. The front cut is lower than "standard", but just enough to allow for proper retention (tension adjustment). It was made for my order, and I was told they typically didn't want to make one-off custom holsters (but I knew a guy there at that time). Nice, light and flat.

The CS45 is a bit thick for my preference for a pocket holster carry weapon, but the CS9 does a pretty nice job of it, especially compared to my other 9's (3913, SW999c & a pair of G26's). A taller grip, but a shorter and less "blocky" slide.




CS9/45




642 & CS9



All things considered ... I tend to prefer my CS9 over my CS45, but the CS45 is an example of how a nicely done subcompact TDA .45 can be made.

BTW, my CS45 has an ambi safety in the pic because I had it converted to decock-only many years ago. It came with a standard single-side manual safety assembly.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Thank you Fastbolt for another awesome tutorial on the CS line. I have copied and pasted more than one of your posts over the years. You are certainly all knowing on the CS9s and CS45s. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom.

De nada ... but the thanks really goes to the folks at S&W over the years who have taught me as much as I could learn (but which really falls far short of what there is to know) about these guns.

I just pass along some of the things I've learned, as well as some of my observations and thoughts along the way.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

While I'm thinking about it, something in 18DAI's original posting - that he's considering either one of these subcompact guns as a BUG/Secondary weapon - makes me think of something else that might be worth mentioning ...

Using a smallish handgun as a BUG can sometimes mean trying to access it and drawing/presenting with a non-dominant hand, especially if your dominant hand is being used to fend off an attack, is injured, etc.

This is something to consider when determining which carry method is desirable. Can it be accessed by only one hand, or both? Is the "ideal" placement oriented for the dominant or non-dominant hand? If you have to pick ONE, which is it, and why?

If I were choosing between my CS9 & CS45 for a non-dominant hand holster, and expected I might be trying to employ it under physically demanding conditions which might not allow a consistently ideal grip & locked wrist, I'd go with the CS9.

I've had a small number of occasions over the years while shooting my CS45, when I felt my wrist unintentionally relax, or my grip unintentionally soften at the wrong moment, and I experienced a feeding stoppage.

That hasn't happened when shooting my CS9 (yet, anyway).

The 9mm gun seems to be somewhat more forgiving, or perhaps more tolerant, of shooter-induced grip support issues.

Itty-bitty .45's have often had a reputation for being less tolerant of ammunition-related issues, as well. Lots of fast cycling, but a short slide travel ... during which that stubby, fat .45 ACP cartridge has to rise up to the mag lips and position itself for being stripped, fed & chambered.

Might be something to think about. Dunno.

The CS9 mag does hold an extra round, if that matters.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Also, while I realize it's probably close to sacrilege to mention the plastic guns in a 3rd gen topic ...

I have to mention that I finally got around to trying a T&E Shield 40 (among several M&P's we've been T&E'ing).

I'd heard from a more than a couple of guys that it was too snappy compared to the Shield 9, and everybody was ordering Shield 9's for the past few months. It seemed somewhat akin, by their descriptions, to when I shot some earlier SW9940c's, and found the felt recoil to be noticeably more than the SW999c (which I bought). Or, how the M&P 40c (which I own) has more snap & muzzle whip than the M&P 9c (which I ought to have bought. )

Not so, though.

I was using some 180gr duty loads and found the Shield 40 to be nicely (surprisingly) controllable (still not as mild as the Shield 9, using +P), but surprisingly "nicer" than my M&P 40c.

REALLY, REALLY accurate, too.

It handles and shoots BETTER than my CS45. More controllable. Thinner. Easier to shoot fast & accurately.

What's the world coming to?!?!?!?

Sorry 18DAI. Couldn't resist.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I can't add a thing to what has been said about the CS-series S&W autos. I do have a recent production XDs .45 and have been shooting it for a month or so now. Seems like an excellent gun if you can live with 6-shots. I wouldn't be too concerned about the grip safety. Sure, it is another slot to let crud enter the gun, but as far as possibly having a problem with activating it so you can fire the gun, that doesn't seem likely.

I don't know if this will help any but I prefer either my cs9 or cs40 and I belly band the bug. In the summertime I am using a 638 but will switch in the winter when I actually have to put clothes back on again! The grip sizes get progressively thicker between the 3 and my hand size makes me less comfortable with carrying the cs45 which is why my preference is for the other 2. I love all 3 calibers so that is not an influence on my decision at all.

I pocket carry my cs9. I just swapped the base plate for a flush fit one from a Kahr magazine. Gained a couple 10ths of an inch. Now, just to find some slimmer grips....

I don't know about the CS9 as a BUG, but it's great for primary carry. But then, I'm not an LEO.

A CS9 and an 8 round reload is my cc weapon in the summer time. Both usually ride in a floppy Uncle Mike's pocket holster stuck down in the mag pocket inside the cargo pocket of my Tru-Spec's. They don't flop around even if I run (although that definitely doesn't happen often). In cooler weather or "formal occasions" the CS9 fits the same IWB Tucker leather as my 908 or 6906.

If I carry a bug it is a 638 in a pocket holster which fits nicely in the front pocket of even snug jeans, but the CS9 just doesn't ride well for me in a front pocket - which is surprising considering they are so close to the same size.

I carried a model 36 in an ankle holster for years and can't imagine the CS9 there unless I tied a brick to the other foot to avoid walking like a peg leg.

My primary carry alternates randomly the gamut of CS9, to CS40, to 908 and 908s.... I know - It's a mood thing. I carry all in Desantis' "Cozy Comforts" E28's.

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Glen

18...dont get mad at me.

I had a CS9D for years and it was a very good shooter for a small package. I did do my own 3913 grip conversion which aided in concealment.

I did sway over to S..H...I...E...L...D nina and got a horrible and gritty 9+lbs trigger with a new gun purchase through KitteryTP.

I was able to reduce by 1 lbs with some smoothing of slide internals (very rough)

decided to go APEX trigger kit which brought the trigger to a very clean breaking just over 6 lbs.

I had two shorties and did not want both so I had to make a decision and the deal breaker was the DAO trigger. While I was accustomed to it the heavier longer stroke of the DA press...my wife and daughter in my opinion if I was no longer around would not be effective with this trigger system. Anticipation of recoil and muzzle movement downward during the long trigger press would cause them to drop shots. Since they dont listen to me and both are very consistent with a Glock and M&P....decided to let the CS9D go. yes....kick me but it would have just sat.

I carry my Shield in a bag as a back up when working, drop it in my waist band on a simple cord holster when off duty.

If I was no longer around....I know my family would know how to be effective with the M&P trigger system when needed.

With that said.....there was nothing wrong with the CS9 set up and a 3913 grip mod. You just have to know the DA/SA trigger system which it appears you know.

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if you're gonna be a bear...

I have the CS9, 40 and 45. The 9 is by far the most comfortable for me to carry in any manner, thus it is my usual/regular CC gun. I prefer OWB, use a PJ holster kydex for carry that style (he doesn't make specifically for CS9 so ordered for 3913 and just trimmed length a little) and wear cover garment. Alternate carry is in Recluse or Mika or Remora pocket holster (depending on how much room in pocket) in cargo pocket. Tried ankle, found it uncomfortable. Good luck in your quest.

I bought SW CQB 45's CS9D and love it! Thanks again, it makes a nice stable mate to my 5943. I personally favor the DAOs, I'm all about keeping it simple.
I sold the CS45 I had mostly to keep a consistent battery of arms on my semi-autos. But also worked a trade deal that I couldn't pass up.

Thank you for the opportunity to be of some assistance! Over the past few years, it's been the other way around - where it seems you and Fastbolt have been the fountain of knowledge with respect to my many S&W 3rd Gen questions...

After a brief experience with the M&P 40C, I've stayed away from compact 40s, though some might consider my 4013TSW in that catagory. I have had both the CS9 and CS45 models of this fine series. I have other compact 45ACP pistols, that I prefer, so have concentrated on the CS9. While I've owned 3913/14/53/54 pistols, and a 908S, I really like the CS9. (So much so that I've just purchased a second one). The one that I currently own is a stainless version, with Big Dog grips and a variety of mags. It has trijicon night sights (front and rear - Novak style).

Not only does my CS9 conceal well, even in a holster (typically, I wear it in an OWB, under a a sweatshirt or jacket), but this gun shoots with exceptional accuracy and reliability. It is, along with my old Kimber Ultra Carry, my "go to" pistol for concealed carry.
So, of the three models, the CS9 gets my unequivical nod.

Again, thanks for all your great advice over the years!!
XAVMECH

WOW!! Thanks all for the great information!!

Fastbolt thanks for the pictures too!

XAVMECH thank you sir!

I had range time this weekend and got to examine many different guns and shoot a few of them too.

A CS9 is my next purchase. I'm not certain I will carry it as a BUG, but I may. The frontrunner right now for a new BUG is a Sig 290. A little hammer fired, polymer framed, DAO 9mm. A LT I know uses one as his BUG and let me shoot it this weekend. Very accurate, light weight, reliable with RA9T too. I can't afford the new price, but a quick check on used versions seems more reasonable. Trigger wasn't great, but was better than the other guns I tried.

He has a custom ankle holster for it. When he showed it to me he had it in the pocket of his 511 work pants. He was using a "sticky" pocket holster for it. I have a similar holster from DeSantis that I use with a 3913. Not in the pocket but in my waistband under a T-shirt. I will use it with my CS9 too.

I appreciate all the feedback! Thanks very much for helping me decide.

I found the grip safety on the XDs variants to be a liability on a pistol that would only be used in extremeis. I was able to make it fail to fire using poor hand holds. So was my shooting partner. He was examining them at the same time. A poor hand hold may be likely in the event you are wrestling around on the ground or have been put in the situation that you are pulling your BUG. Those pistols need a memory bump on the grip safety, IMO.

The CS40 I didn't find an example to shoot. The CS45 was not that much smaller than my 4513TSW V1 and was not as pleasant to shoot, for me. The baby Glocks were too bulky to carry on an ankle, for me. The Glock 36 was as unpleasant to shoot as an Airweight J-frame using 357's. My shooting partner said after running a mag through it, "It kills in front and maims to the rear!" It also jammed three times while we shot it. FTF's. No thanks. The Ruger LCP was OK. But I don't go below 9mm.

One gun I finally got to examine in person this weekend was the Glock 30S. This Glock appeals to me. I have read the rave reviews and it looks and feels pretty nice. It reminded me of a slightly lightweight 4516-3 in its slide dimensions and its large white dot front sight. Sadly, I did not get to shoot it. The owner said it is a little bit snappier than his Glock 30 SF. But just as accurate and reliable. The 30S may be the first Glock I actually purchase.

So, I'm going to do my due diligence and research this little Sig 290. I will shoot it again too. But I will be buying a CS9 first. Night sights and decock only if I can locate one. Thanks again for all the kind assistance! Best regards, 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

18DAI:

I'm with you on the G30s. Just bought one a few weeks ago and found it to be very accurate, reliable and controllable. While I am really fond of the 3rd Generation pistols, I can't say I've ever owned a CS9 or CS45, so I can't really make a comparison. Just a question, though; I have a Shield 9 and an XDs45. Both are excellent in terms of reliability, accuracy and concealment ability. Did you have a bad experience with these little guns? They are really hard to beat for your stated purposes.

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Dave Frost

At the risk of offending our NC friend with the pronounced aversion to M&Ps (which I share when it comes to the small-caliber full-size and compact models), I have to agree with this. My Shield 9 and XDs .45 have been terrific little guns. My only concern with the Shield has been its magazine. I think I happened to get a hold of a bad one. After replacing the spring, all has been well.

The XDs was good from the start. It is amazingly soft-shooting for a .45. I bought it expecting to have to use "minor" .45 loads (185 JHPs ) but so far it has been great with 230s and I don't see any reason to change, except to save 0.6-ounces on the loaded gun - which is nothing. I don't know how long the gun will last but as long as it does, I intend to use it. So far, so good.

Good luck with your search. Let us know what you decide.

Hi snowman45,

Yes, I've shot both the "shield" 9 and the XDs9 as well as the XDs45.

The "shield" I found to have the after thought safety for a right handed person. I'm a lefty. The shields trigger was not much of an improvement over the lousy m&p triggers, for me. In addition, it was almost the same dimensions as my 3913. Since it did nothing as well as my 3913, for me, I've crossed it off my list.

The XDs guns, while very nice for CCW use won't work for me because of that grip safety. My shooting partner (former captain of the Sheriff's departments shooting team/ RHD LT/ retired and an attorney now) brought the grip safety liability to my attention. He put the "bug" in my ear and I just don't trust it now. Both XDs models shot very well, for me. I found the checkering on the grip/frame to be........VERY......aggressive. Wasn't that noticeable shooting the 9mm, but I don't think an extended range session would be pleasant with the 45. In fairness to the XDs 45, I am use to shooting S&W 45 compacts that wear Hogue rubber grips and have less aggressive front strap only checkering. Both XDs pistols were reliable and accurate. EXCEPT when I and my shooting partner tried "less than optimum holds on the XDs 45 pistol. While I did not have a hold that caused the XDs 9 to misfire, I was able to cause a failure to go bang with the XDs 45.

Let me be clear here though, lest my statement get misinterpeted or misquoted by someone down the road - Again, I INTENTIONALLY TRIED to cause this failure to fire while testing the pistol for BUG/ankle carry use. It is not meant in any way to deride the XDs 45 or to imply there is a problem with the gun. I had to try a few different holds to cause it. The XDs 45 is a very nice gun. Just not of any use to me though.

I'm looking forward to shooting the Glock 30S. While I don't think I will be replacing my S&W 45 duty/off duty guns, the 30S and the thought that went into coming up with that model intrigue me. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

18DAI:

I understand your affinity for the 3913. It is very hard to beat with any other pistol of it's class. As far as the Shield safety goes; I just don't ever use it. I also had some reservations about the grip safety on the XDs. After using it for some time now, I'm no longer concerned, but I'm an old 1911 guy, so it's kind of natural to me.

Definitely check out that G30S when you get the chance. I'm very fond of mine. If Glock ever figures out that the slim slide will work on the G21 full-size .45, I might be tempted to get another one. Good luck in your endeavors.

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Dave Frost

I just sold my CS9 and CS45. They just sat in my safe collecting dust. I just don't like then as well as a a 3913 or a 4513TSW pre rail.. I just carry them better and shoot them better. Some swear by the the CS series. "There is a horse for every saddle" My wife has fallen in love with the Shield 9mm. She is a traitor to her 3913 I still prefer the 3913. I do plan to give the Springer XDS a try as I have heard good things about both calibers. I also was looking at a Shorty 45 a few weeks ago but did not have the cash to buy it.
One pocket pistol that i wish I had never sold was my Kimber Solo. It was a great package. I didn't like the SA only concept. But now I am rethinking that...but the Kimber is long gone.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Like I said.. i just sold my CS 9 Enjoy!

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Well, I came into a CS45 from a different angle...
was looking for a Star 30 or 31, or Firestar/Ultrastar...etc...
and found the CS45 in a local pawn shop...price was right, so I bought it.
Tried it out due to curiousity, found that it had a similar grip to the Stars...
and I loved the nice Hogue grip, so I just couldn't help myself!!

It replaces a Glock 20SF as my EDC. Prior to that it was a gen2 G20.
Due to deciding that I wanted to turn it into a full-time hunting pistol,
by adding a 9" Lone Wolf 10mm barrel...other mods to follow...
Most people are shocked when they find out you are carrying a full-size EDC.
Always considered it a fun experiment to see how many things I could hide,
yet still have quick access to...watched too much "Wild, Wild West" as a kid...

In my old age, I've eased up, only carry three or four items to defend with...
plus I prefer cargo shorts...it is Florida, after all
So hiding a smaller CS45 won't be difficult at all...
Thunderwear does the job nicely! Which leaves plenty of pocket room for...
a spring coil baton, the folding knife of the day, and a 9-section steel whip...
Yeah, I know...slightly over-prepared...that's the life of a Boy Scout

Only bad thing I can find with the CS45 is that spare mags are a little pricey & hard to find...

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

As much as I like Third Generation pistols, and as hard as I tried to like it, I finally sold my CS9. The grip surface just wasn't large enough to get a secure grip on with my hands. It was a beautiful little gun and perfectly reliable, but I went back to a 908S and found that much more suitable for my mitts - a factor you may consider.

I would sooner sell my 4566tsw than the CS9 . The grip difference between the 3913 and the CS9 is the width of a 9mm . A Glock 26 almost makes the CS9 look big .

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I can tell you that the CS40 mags will fit into the CS45 but when you hit the slide release, it will launch the whole round out the barrel. Don't ask how I know. Called looking at a nice looking lady next to me and not paying attention to what I was pulling out of my range bag.

Fastbolt,
Great wealth of information. 457 mags will also fit the CS 45 without any loss of function. However, due to the extra round, they do print larger.
That said, I'd appreciate anyone's input on OWB close-fitting holsters. Kydex or leather doesn't matter. I can't use an IWB. Also, any ideas on getting the mag base plate more flush to the mag well. I've got Big Dogs for grips.
Thanks much

I carried a G33 (and a G26 before it) as a BUG for a long time. First on my ankle (set up for off hand draw for lots of reasons), then as I got older and less flexible, in a vest strap holster (also for the off hand). I also carried a spare mag. In a realistic analysis, it makes a good second gun, and a uniformed cop should also carry a J frame (centennial style with the enclosed back strap to reduce snag risk and keep crud out) as a third.

The 2nd gun is another more or less fighting size gun, but the J frame is for contact shots, aka a "get off me" gun. It is foreseeable that under the stress of the moment, one could force a BUG into the offender with enough force that the slide could be forced out of battery just enough to preclude firing. This would be very bad.

Wearing a G33 was not hard for me. First, I valued it enough to make it work. Second, I am big enough (6'1 and a smidge; 230; 50 coat, 38 trouser) that another bit of lumpy does not show. Third, I almost never wore anything but a jumpsuit. Working in the boonies, I carried a lot of extra crud, which made shapes less discernible. If you are stuck with a traditional parade ground Class A disaster, it sucks to be you. I hope you file a safety grievance daily. There is no excuse for that unless on the parade ground. Period. At least play with the tailoring enough to make it work. Of course, if you are one of those lean built SF sorts (the 18D makes me wonder), a little bit of extra lump will show and tailoring may not help enough.

Of the choices you mention, I would most want a CS9D. I am a vehement opponent of traditional DA/SA, but would not be too bothered by a DAO 3rd gen S&W. Make sure you carry a spare magazine.

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NHI, 10-8.

For contact shots, it is suggested by some interesting gun writers to
simply place one's thumb against the back of the slide.

It is scary at first, but oddly enough, with 9mm,
if you have Decent thumb strength, you can hold the slide in position
long enough from the bullet to exit without damaging your hand...

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Which simply creates what is in effect another type of malfunction, with the bonus of requiring a lot of thought and work under crummy circumstances. It might work; I'll buy that, but it's not a simple technique to apply.

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NHI, 10-8.

I forgot about this tread. Just for an update or FYI I have stopped looking for a BUG........for now.

I tried the CS9. Nice gun, but not what I was looking for. I sold it. The XDs45 is still a possibility. I'm waiting to see if the problems with it are resolved. Or I may try a KelTec 9. A few fellows I know use it on their ankle.

For now, occasionally, I'm using a RH IWB holster to carry my 4513TSW V1 with my 4566 on my strong side. I learned this method from a Las Vegas Metro guy. He did it with a pair of Glocks and told me that several detectives on his squad preferred this method of carrying a BUG.

With a light weight tupperware gun it might be doable. With hammer fired metal pistols........not so much.

Thanks to all who contributed to the thread! Regards, 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Since it looks like 18DAI has gotten his answer (for now), I thought a bit of a thread drift might be indulged here. A quick related question for Fastbolt...

I found your comments about the Shield 40 of interest. I recall you picked up a 4040PD [for those that don't know - it's basically a Scandium framed 3913 chambered in 40S&W] and would be curious to hear your thoughts on the 4040 vs. the Shield 40. IIRC, the 4040 weights in around 25 ounces and the Shield is around 19. You had previously made comments about the added muzzle whip and felt recoil of the 4040 vs the 3913, which makes me curious how the 4040 would stack up against the Shield 40. TIA.

I think I got my 4040PD sometime back around 2005, or thereabouts. It certainly did seem to offer me noticeably more felt recoil, as well as muzzle whip/snap, at that time compared to shooting my 3913 with issued +P & +P+ loads (which was also wearing Hogue grip panels).

I think I'd run somewhere around 1000-1500 rounds through it before I decided it didn't interest me as much as my 3913, and I put it away in the safe. I had my G27, 4013TSW, SW9940 and finally my M&P 40c to satisfy my desire to run .40's whenever I wanted to shoot .40's. The 4040 sort of languished.

Then, it was sometime last year when I got the sudden notion to pull it from the safe. I cleaned & lubed it and decided to run it through the current qual course-of-fire. I did it "cold", meaning without any warm-up or re-familiarization, using some 180gr JHP loads.

I was somewhat surprised to find that it felt pretty much like when I was shooting my 3913, meaning the felt recoil didn't seem all that much different. I'd brought some 165gr T-Series loads with me, and found a box of 155gr STHP's among the training ammo, so I ran those through the gun and did some fast-paced drills.

I expected both of the lighter bullet weight .40 loads to have more felt recoil. However, once I was focusing on making fast hits on steel & paper, and doing it while moving, I forgot to feel the difference. I even mixed a few mags of the 3 different loads together and couldn't tell which round was which during the rapid shot strings. Weird.

I'd brought my 3913 that day, as well, so I had the chance to run the same course and drills using some 124gr +P and some 127gr +P+ loads in the 3913. If I slowed my shooting to look for it, I could tell the difference regarding whether I was shooting the 3913 or 4040 ... but running them both fast & hard? Not so much. Really weird.

So, what had happened since I'd put the 4040 away and forgot about it? The gun obviously wasn't any different.

All I could think of was that I've been shooting a lot more .40 through my other pistols during that time.

So, by the time I'd remembered to grab a T&E Shield 40 from the armory, I'd been wondering whether I was going to notice much difference between it and the Shield 9, or whether it was going to be like my recent 3913/4040 experience.

Maybe ... just maybe ... all of the range time I'd been spending shooting .40 (not my favorite caliber, to be sure, so something I did as a training/practice task) had started to pay off.

Something else I recently noticed was while test-firing someone's 4013TSW during an inspection.

Previously, when carrying both my own 4013TSW or an issued one, I found I had to use the wrap-around Hogue grip with the finger grooves in order to feel as though I could firmly grasp and control it. The short factory grip just didn't rest against my palm as well as I'd wish, and it felt a bit awkward under continuing recoil.

Well, when I ran a few mag loads through that other shooter's 4013TSW, with was equipped with the stock grip, it wasn't until I'd fired a couple of magazine loads that I realized the gun felt just fine in my hand, even during rapid-fire. It occurred to me to wonder why I'd felt the need to use those soft rubber Hogues back when I was shooting mine a lot, and then when carrying an issued one. Weird, again.

Bottom line? I strongly suspect that a few more years of trigger time with various .40's has "lessened" my sensitivity to some of the felt recoil.

So ... while at least a couple of the other instructors have reported noticing a significant difference in felt recoil between the Shield 9 & 40, I just didn't feel it ... that day. Might it be different next time? Dunno.

As far as the 4040 & Shield 40? I'd have to take my 4040 to the range and run it alongside the Shield 40 in order to make a direct comparison on the same day. I imagine the heavier 4040, with its fatter backstrap of the softer Hogue grip panel, would probably "feel" better, but that's still going to be subjective.

All I could suggest is to try both for yourself, if possible, and maybe do so with a couple bullet weights of ammo, and do it on a couple of different days.

It really only matters what you think, anyway.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

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I cut out your description of the second gun carried IWB, but I think I'd have to be pretty desperate to do that, cuz it seems so unpleasant. The juice wouldn't not be worth the squeeze, to me.

That aside - please revisit your decision on a BUG. Carry something that works every time, and is with you all the time. Even a .380 Bodyguard or something. It will be pointless until the day it is priceless, at which point it will be a lot better than a firm wish and a few harsh words. (And of course have a rifle near by ...)

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NHI, 10-8.

When I was thinner I carried my CS-45 in an El Paso Saddlery IWB "Covert" holster. Now that I'm chubby I am less inclined to do that so I carry my CS-45 in one of several similar belt holsters from EPS, DeSantis, and another company, Mernickle, maybe. Can't recall offhand. It's very comfortable on a belt - you just have to have a vest, light jacket, un-tucked shirt, whatever, to cover it. but you need that with an IWB, too, so it's no different.

The holster should hold the gun sufficiently such that it will NOT fall out if you fall, or you run, etc. My favorite is the El Paso Saddlery but the others work well, too.

***GRJ***

Funny sidelight to this thread:

I am a vehement opponent of most striker fired pistols, especially Glocks and other guns with tricky triggers. Normal triggers are less offensive to me.

I shoot these guns as well as the next guy or better but I'd never own one, never mind carry one.

And that's what makes the world go round!

***GRJ***

I wasn't going to say anything about Dougs statement on TDA but now you kinda dragged me into it. I have seen a awful lot of folks holster TDAs and 1911s with out dropping the hammer or putting it on safe (the 1911s). Where as the striker fired pistols are shoot and scoot, a very easy manual of arms compared to the drive it in time and time again training for TDA and 1911s.
Doug, what military unit are you with?

I'm not. Uncle Sam was far smarter than I when I sought to come in as a JAG officer. I'm a professional nerd and a bit of a Rainman, so some MOS designators stick in my mind due to contact with people of such backgrounds. As for the SOCOM tough guys, even when I was younger and less decrepit, I was never suited to be one of them. The only way I could pass any of those training programs (or even the screening) is in a car driving by the base in question.

I did carry a 1911 as a duty weapon for a while and also carried a couple of issued TDA format pistols until we could opt out. It is possible to train through the ergonomic problems of the TDA, but from my view, not a good use of time for most of us.

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NHI, 10-8.