Safe ammo for new Model 10 No Lock

[BoulderTroll]

You could make a wiser decision than shooting +P ammo in all of your guns.

I didn't say "all my guns", I said all my 9mm's. Big difference. Modern day SAAMI spec 9mm standard pressure ammo is underpowered, and was never what 9mm was designed as. When 9mm was introduced the "standard" pressure was equal to what we would now call +P or NATO. I also often use 357SIG recoil springs in my 9mm pistols. There are far worse choices than this, considering that the number 2 cause of stoppages in 9mm's (after user error) is weak ammunition. I'd prefer a reliable gun over a pistol shooting a weaker cartridge than it was intended for. These are just my own observations after being an armorer (for 9mm pistols).

 

[Rust E. Badge]

I didn't say "all my guns", I said all my 9mm's. Big difference. Modern day SAAMI spec 9mm standard pressure ammo is underpowered, and was never what 9mm was designed as. When 9mm was introduced the "standard" pressure was equal to what we would now call +P or NATO. I also often use 357SIG recoil springs in my 9mm pistols. There are far worse choices than this, considering that the number 2 cause of stoppages in 9mm's (after user error) is weak ammunition. I'd prefer a reliable gun over a pistol shooting a weaker cartridge than it was intended for. These are just my own observations after being an armorer (for 9mm pistols).

I understand and am glad you're an armorer. I am too for various firearms and I have collectively serviced thousands of handguns, rifles and shotguns...all for fighting not for sport shooting. I've known dozens of factory certified armoreres who don't know "jack" about ammo or it's affect on the internal ballistics of a firearm. I'm no expert but 9mm, as co-designed by George Luger was a 124-gr bullet at around 1070-fps. I do not know what the internal pressure was. If I needed more, I would get another cartridge. I do know that I have trained thousands of law enforcement and military personnel and shot 100,000's of "standard" pressure ammo. Modern 9mm is not so deficient of pressure as to create an unreliable condition in most firearms including sub-machine guns in use by various agencies. A pressure/velocity boost is usually for improve terminal ballistics, which is only necessary under certain conditions.

Shoot what is appropriate for you and your firearms. I was not, and am by no means, trying to persuade you otherwise. But in my previous life, we could not afford people attempting to tweak firearms performance outside of the operational windows established by the manufacturer.

Enjoy your shooting, and keep your powder dry.

 

[bigggbbruce]

The difference between 38spl and 38spl+p is about .3gr more powder.

 

[BoulderTroll]

Modern 9mm is not so deficient of pressure as to create an unreliable condition in most firearms including sub-machine guns in use by various agencies. A pressure/velocity boost is usually for improve terminal ballistics, which is only necessary under certain conditions.

...But in my previous life, we could not afford people attempting to tweak firearms performance outside of the operational windows established by the manufacturer.

I sure wish I could agree with you, but that just was not my experience. Your MP5's ran flawlessly with weak ammo like WWB and similar cheap "training" ammo? I was issued an MP5 for 9 years, and ours sure didn't. Not to mention there are a slew of P229 (as one example) owners out there who complain that their gun is unreliable because they've never shot it with duty ammo, and once they do, they see that SIG's are intended, from the factory, to fire hot rounds.

I also can't agree with your belief that +P is outside the operational window established by manufacturers. Of course it is not, as all current "duty style" 9mm pistols are rated for +P.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

The difference between 38spl and 38spl+p is about .3gr more powder.

That is right and I am still upset I cannot find Bullseye powder.

 

[rwsmith]

You can shoot all the Buffalo Bore, Corbon or Federal LSWCHP +P Federal load that you want. No gunmaker advocates using +P+ ammo because it has no standard and can be anything they can stuff into a .38 case. However, I'm an advocate of using older reloading data, as long as it didn't cause problems. I can vouch that even bought +P ammo in the 1970/80s was markedly more powerful than standard loads. My early 1970s Sierra (read HUNTING LOADS) reloading manual gave a loading for .38 Special that was a full grain of powder heavier than is presently published. I worked up a load .2 grain at a time and stopped about halfway into increasing the load. My model 10 wasn't even breathing hard, but the loads were getting more raucous than I was used to, definitely a GENUINE +P load.

 

[MP-5]

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Hey all, I'm looking closely at these new 4" barrel Model 10 Classic No Locks, that look like a blued Victory model, and I'm wondering about ammo selection. I've never owned a 38 Special before, just plenty of 357 magnums. I hear that these newer revolvers should be tougher than their WWII and earlier counterparts, and they of course say "+P" on the barrel.

I prefer shooting hotter loads out of all my guns. I buy exclusively NATO or +P for my 9mm's, and I'm wondering if a steady diet of +P ammo would be hard on the new Model 10's. On the one hand, 38 +P seems to have very tame pressures, but on the other, there seems to be a huge variety of what people consider "+P" in 38 Special. For example, Speer Gold Dot 125 grain says their +P is around 950 fps, where Underwood says theirs is 1200 in the same grain weight. I bought some Underwood 140 grain copper rounds that claim 1000 fps. I know that Underwood are known for running hot in most loadings, but if I fed a Model 10 a bunch of 125 grain Underwood at 1200 fps, would that be too much of a stress, or is 38 just a mild cartridge to the point that it would be totally fine?

Sorry for the noob questions, I just know very little about 38 Special.

I was an active IDPA competitor for several years, shooting in SSR (stock service revolver) division when the power factor required loading .38 Special to +P levels (158s to ~835 fps). I put several thousand rounds each through a M67-1 and a M10-8 during that time in practice and competition. Both guns are still tight. I've since acquired a 3" M10-7, and while I'm no longer competing, it's seen ~3000 of those same loads with no issues. I still use the same load because it replicates my carry load for most of my .38s, the R-P 158-grain LSWC-HP.

While I don't doubt that using +P increases wear on a M10, it'll take a LOT of shooting before it becomes an issue.

 

[Rust E. Badge]

I sure wish I could agree with you, but that just was not my experience. Your MP5's ran flawlessly with weak ammo like WWB and similar cheap "training" ammo? I was issued an MP5 for 9 years, and ours sure didn't. Not to mention there are a slew of P229 (as one example) owners out there who complain that their gun is unreliable because they've never shot it with duty ammo, and once they do, they see that SIG's are intended, from the factory, to fire hot rounds.

I also can't agree with your belief that +P is outside the operational window established by manufacturers. Of course it is not, as all current "duty style" 9mm pistols are rated for +P.

Thanks sir. I did not think that I implied that +p was outside of the design operational parameters of most modern firearms. +p pressures are usually not required for improved performance of a recoil operated pistol caliber system. Will increased pressure raise velocity, cyclic-rates? Yes. Those operations are not a sign of improved performance necessarily. The MP5's we operate are not prone to failure with standard pressure loads. I have certainly seen sub-machine guns that are, but these MP5's are not. I'm sorry that yoyr H&K products were so finicky. H&K is a very overrated company and provider. NATO-standard 9mm is of higher pressure mostly to improve performance in varying temperatures and field conditions. And singling out Sig as an end to the thought that pistols need +p pressure is too arbitrary. I guess the conclusion is that firearms manufacturers can't make a quality pistol that will function regularly with the majority of ammo available for public consumption. Shame. Thanks for your thoughtfulness.

 

[Dave Haynes]

There was a time in the 70s When Bangor Punta still owned S&W when the product was so bad that it became a bad joke. I knew the firearms chief for the county sheriff personally and he'd get a 15 or 20 gun order of model 19s and NONE, NONE would even fire a round. When they were finally fit to issue, they would be fed a diet of full power .357 and withing a very few rounds would be just rattletraps. He used to say that the K frame was just not made to take that abuse. An N frame 28 would handle all the .357 you wanted to stuff through it. Now they use better steel but Stainless isn't 4140 and I might bet the farm that full power .357 or +P as a steady diet does a pistol no favors. Use the +P stuff to adjust to point of aim and after that back off. The paper and beer cans are still dead and your pistol will thank you later.

 

[fatcat3]

JMHO, with rare exceptions P08 luger I.E., if you need +P you need a bigger gun. Also standard pressure .38spl has been knocking the stuffing out of anything that needs it stuffing rearranged for 100 years. Then I'm not an armorer, ballistician, any kind of expert, just an old lifelong shooter and gun crank. That makes me a Fudd. Call the nice people at S&W, give them the SSN, and believe what they tell you. Even/especially if it isn't what you want to hear.

 

[rwsmith]

That is right and I am still upset I cannot find Bullseye powder.

Don't fret. Forget Alliant until they decide that reloaders are worth caring for. Hodgdon Titegroup is VERY similar to Bullseye, I'm sure that Accurate #2 is a good target powder. Hodgon HP-38/Win 231 isn't as fast as most target powders, but it's great stuff and versatile.
Vihtavuori powders are excellent but out of my price range. N310 or N320 would be great for targets. Hodgdon Hi-Skor 700X and Clays are also very good. I haven't tried Ramshot Competition, but if it's available, what the hey? Alliant Red Dot is also close to Bullseye IF it's available, I've used and it makes a good target load.

 

[rwsmith]

JMHO, with rare exceptions P08 luger I.E., if you need +P you need a bigger gun. Also standard pressure .38spl has been knocking the stuffing out of anything that needs it stuffing rearranged for 100 years. Then I'm not an armorer, ballistician, any kind of expert, just an old lifelong shooter and gun crank. That makes me a Fudd. Call the nice people at S&W, give them the SSN, and believe what they tell you. Even/especially if it isn't what you want to hear.

Since reloading, I don't pay any attention to +P anymore. There's minimum and maximum loads, and the minimum end can be extended downward to some extent. If .38 won't do it I've got a .357, which is even MORE versatille since it will shoot everything from rabbit poots to defeating level II body armor.

 

[alwslate]

There is a big difference between various brands of std pressure 9mm ammo these days. Some 115 gr is truly watered down junk that will only chronograph about 1050 fps out of a full size 9mm like my BHP and will not even cycle the action. Using it for SD might cost you your life. As always, a chronograph is your friend. Weak ammo causes malfunctions in semi autos as said above. Your 9mm ammo doesn't have to be +P but needs enough recoil impulse to insure reliable function. Some brands of domestic std pressure 115 gr FMJ like Speer Lawman, will chrono about 1200 fps out of my BHP compared to Remington junk at around 1050 fps out of the same gun.

 

[Doug M.]

The odds of doing any damage to a new model 10 with any sane ammo are small at best. You are more likely to get tired of the recoil and flash before the revolver is. In terms of training validity, one should use the same ammo or a good analogue all the time. There have been some hard lessons learned about using light ammo for training (past the initial stages) and more powerful stuff for carry.

Worried? Buy a second identical piece and train with one/carry the other. I bet you would have spend a staggering amount on ammo to have a real impact. I'm thinking 50K round of ammo or more. Don't look for hot ammo for performance - placement and bullet shape (SWC are generally far better in modest loads than any high performance ammo, which in .38 Special is not likely enough to expand enough to matter) are vital.

 

[usm1rifle]

I did not say that other than the first sentence. I would appreciate a correction without using AI to modify and expand on my post.