Heavy bullet 9mm loads

bobbyd · May 21, 2011

There is a fair bit of information about heavy bullet (say 250-255 gr SWC) loads for revolvers in 45 ACP/AR.

I sometimes carry a S&W 940 9mm with 5-round moonclips and was wondering if this same line of thought might cross-apply to some heavy bullet 9mm revolver loads (say 158-160-170 gr SWC) for this gun.

I already try to keep pressures on the low side to preclude the sometimes problem of cases sticking in the cylinder and was wondering if anybody had any thoughts or experience in this vein?

matsu · May 21, 2011

I have seen 147gr factory loads much more than that you will run out of space in the case but in a revolver you would and can load long for any thing heavier

David Sinko · May 22, 2011

I can load the Speer 147 gr. Gold Dot to 1080 FPS in my 2" Model 940 using Alliant Power Pistol. Good new or once fired brass will not stick in the chambers.

I have tried 158 gr. cast bullets sized to .355" and have had nothing but bad back luck with these. Recoil was much more severe than the above mentioned load and the cases would stick. As far as I'm concerned the 9mm is at its useful limit with 147 gr. bullets, and out of revolvers (even those with very short barrels) the 147 gr. bullet is capable of some stunning velocity when properly handloaded.

Dave Sinko

colt_saa · May 22, 2011

Better performance from the 940 is a fairly easy thing. Especially of you hand load.

Starting off with 9mm, I load tons of 158grain FMJ for my 9mms. However I load them at 1030 FPS for use in suppressed firearms. I bought 10,000 of these projectiles a few years back when they were being closed out by the distributor. I have a few thousand remaining. It is not necessary to re-barrel these firearms. They are very accurate with the 158 grain projectiles.

In truth, the 940 really shines when you re-chamber it. Some have been opened up to 38Super while others have been re-chambered to 9x23. Personally, I would not chamber an older J-frame 940 to 9x23 but a 940 built on the J-magnum frame is another issue.

With hand loading the 9x23 Winchester can push a 147 grain gold dot to roughly 1300 FPS. This is near 357Magnum performance with moon clip convenience.

The bonus is that these firearms can still chamber and shoot standard 9mm ammunition if you want.

sjmjax · May 22, 2011

It can be done depending on what you're trying to accomplish.

Samson manufactures a 158 grain, FMJ ball, low velocity round. Primarily for suppressed weapons. Interestingly, it's the only factory ammo that will shoot to point of aim in my 3" 940. Everything else consistently prints about 2" low at 7 yards.

Some years ago, I loaded up a batch of 9mm with standard .358 diameter, 158 grain LSWC. Don't have my notes but think it was a light load around 3 grains Bullseye. Made them specifically for a subgun with a shot out barrel. The cases were bulged a bit for the oversize bullet but the generously cut subgun chamber accommodated it well. The ammo ran well and the oversize lead picked up the vestigial rifling and restored the gun's accuracy. Didn't pursue it much after that as I eventually found a replacement barrel.

David Sinko · May 24, 2011

What would be the advantage of a J "Magnum" frame? Both the .38 Super and the 9x23 lack the case capacity of the .38 Special by a considerable margin and easily fit into a standard 940 J Frame cylinder. If you take a magnum frame and convert it to 9mm I don't see how you can call it a 940. And I don't see what could be gained. I have exceeded the maximum listed data for the .38 Special and 158 gr. SWC in the notorious Speer #8 and gotten "only" 1115 FPS in a Ruger SP-101 with 2 1/4" barrel. How are you getting 1300 FPS with a jacketed bullet in a cartridge that has far less case capacity?

Dave Sinko

colt_saa · May 24, 2011

David Sinko said:
What would be the advantage of a J "Magnum" frame?

The J-magnum frame is stronger than the J-frame.

Both the .38 Super and the 9x23 lack the case capacity of the .38 Special by a considerable margin and easily fit into a standard 940 J Frame cylinder.

Having more case capacity does not mean that you can fill it to the top with powder, seat a projectile and safely shoot it in the firearm it is chambered for. The 357 Magnum is not more powerful than the 38 Special becasue it has 1/10" more case length.

If you take a magnum frame and convert it to 9mm I don't see how you can call it a 940.

Over the years, the 940 was built on both the J-frame and the J-magnum frame. No one is suggesting converting a standard firearm to 9MM. However many of us have converted firearms to other calibers. My 360PD is a 9x23 revolver now.

I have exceeded the maximum listed data for the .38 Special and 158 gr. SWC in the notorious Speer #8 and gotten "only" 1115 FPS in a Ruger SP-101 with 2 1/4" barrel. How are you getting 1300 FPS with a jacketed bullet in a cartridge that has far less case capacity?
Dave Sinko

Because that is what the cartridge is capable of safely doing.

Powders that make the modern 9x23 Winchester cartridge (born in 1996) powerful and efficient did not exist when the 38 Special came into existence almost 100 years earlier in 1898. The design and strength of the cartridge casings is dramatically different because they are engineered for totally different operating pressures.

Loading a 38 special cartridge (or any cartridge) for pressures that are well above SAAMI specifications is a dangerous venture and I would strongly recommend against it. If you require that much more power from your firearm you should choose a cartridge that is capable of producing it without exceeding safety margins.

According to SAAMI, the 38 Special is designed to operate around 17,000 PSI, 38 +P 20,000 PSI, 357 Magnum 35,000 PSI and the 9x23 operates around 40,000 PSI. I do not care how you look at it. If you take the same projectile and load it in a cartridge at 17,000 or 20,000 PSI it is going to move slower than if you load it to 35,000 or 40,000 PSI.

revolvergeek · May 24, 2011

I would expect that due to the very similar case sizes you could use .38 S&W data to load heavy bullets in 9mmP cases. Louisianaman has posted several threads on here and other forums with his experiments loading 140, 158, 196, 200 and 215 grain lead bullets in .38 S&W brass. Velocities will be generally be pretty low with the heavier ones though.

David Sinko · May 25, 2011

So, in the grand scheme of things, what kind of ballistics is the 9x23 going to deliver out of a 2" barrel? Are there any actual chronograph figures with a 147 or 158 gr. bullet? I have always wanted to see an honest velocity comparison of heavy 9mm bullets (factory loads and handloads) in the various 9mm cartridges, from 9x19 to 9x23 but with a short barrel. Do you have any velocity figures you can post?

How easily do heavy 9x23 loads extract from a converted .38 Special cylinder? How easily do heavy 9x19 loads extract from the same cylinder? One of the purported advantages of such a conversion is the ability to fire 9x19, headspacing on the moonclips. How well does this really work?

I am still very skeptical of the performance of the 9x23 in any revolver, let alone one with a 2" barrel. If I am wrong, I will happily jump into my car with my 940 and drive the 45 minutes to Pinnacle so that I can have one for myself.

Dave Sinko

Reloader Fred · May 25, 2011

Handloader Magazine did an article on heavy cast bullet loads for the 9x19 back in February, 1995, in Issue # 173. Mike Thomas tested bullets from 141 grains to 157 grains, and listed his loads and results from three different pistols. They weren't tested in a revolver, but did provide some interesting results in the pistols.

I've loaded 158 grain bullets in the 9x19 and they worked just fine.

As a side note, I have a 9x23 Winchester reamer sitting next to a Ruger Blackhawk 9x19 cylinder on my bench right now. I've just trying to find some time to ream all six chambers..... I have a friend who converted a Ruger 101 to 9x23 and it's a shooter.

Hope this helps.

Fred

colt_saa · May 25, 2011

David Sinko said:
So, in the grand scheme of things, what kind of ballistics is the 9x23 going to deliver out of a 2" barrel? Are there any actual chronograph figures with a 147 or 158 gr. bullet? I have always wanted to see an honest velocity comparison of heavy 9mm bullets (factory loads and handloads) in the various 9mm cartridges, from 9x19 to 9x23 but with a short barrel. Do you have any velocity figures you can post?

How easily do heavy 9x23 loads extract from a converted .38 Special cylinder? How easily do heavy 9x19 loads extract from the same cylinder? One of the purported advantages of such a conversion is the ability to fire 9x19, headspacing on the moonclips. How well does this really work?

I am still very skeptical of the performance of the 9x23 in any revolver, let alone one with a 2" barrel. If I am wrong, I will happily jump into my car with my 940 and drive the 45 minutes to Pinnacle so that I can have one for myself.

Dave Sinko

Dave,
I do not understand this request.

As far as I can recall you have been a part of most if not all of the threads on this J-frame/9x23 topic for several years now. On many occasions what you are asking for has been discussed. Chrono results have been shared by at least myself and WC145 on numerous occasions. Do you not recall any of these threads? Or do you just not believe what we have been telling you for two or three years now. How is our repeating the same information that you have already heard from us going to make a difference to you?

It sounds like the only way you are going to be satisfied with any of the answers is if you jump in your car and go let Mark convert a cylinder for you. Load up some ammo, get out your chronograph and go shooting. Then you can come to your own conclusions.

If you do not like it or decide that we are all lying about the subject, just sell it. There are enough folks on this forum alone that it should be no big deal to get rid of.

BTW, Sunday I will be shootin my convertible 5" 9x23 627.

David Sinko · May 26, 2011

I'm not saying you guys are lying; I just want to be clear on the velocity vs. barrel length. I did a search and the only chrono data I could find was posted by WC145 for his 360J. A Winchester 124 gr. factory load gave 1176 FPS, which is 4 FPS LESS than I am getting with handloaded 124 gr. Gold Dot in the 9x19 in my 2" 940. I don't doubt the performance advantage out of that 5" barrel, but I just don't see any appreciable gain in a pocket gun.

Dave Sinko

Heavy bullet 9mm loads

bobbyd

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matsu

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David Sinko

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sjmjax

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David Sinko

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colt_saa

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revolvergeek

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David Sinko

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Reloader Fred

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colt_saa

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