357 J frames, pressure, and buffalo bore ammo

[island]

Hello everyone,
Thanks to everyones help and support on this forum I have been the proud owner of a newish 649 in 357 for the last couple months and I absolutely love it. I really enjoy shooting 357 through it, I mostly practice with blazer 158 gr hollow points which is what I keep it loaded with for cc.
I am an avid fisherman and spend a lot of time in the back country in the pnw where the only real issue is tweakers, cougars and black bears. Soon I will find enough cash and the right timing to get a 629 for adequate protection against the very rare charging black bear or cougar, until then I pack my 649. I want the best possible round in 357 for that low chance situation. I picked up some buffalo bore heavy 357 180 gr but have been hesitant to try it out.
I have done a bunch of reading and called S&W, the guy I talked to right off the bat said no buffalo bore ammo, then said I need to call buffalo bore and make sure the pressure behind the bullet does not exceed 350 which is the maximum pressure rating for my 649. Buffalo bores site says dont call and ask if their rounds will work in jframes because it will work in all steel 357 revolvers. A little more research on 3rd party sites talked about how BB ammo it is a bigger bullet with standard pressure for 357.
So after all that I guess im just wondering will this bullet damage my gun, I only plan to put 10 rounds or so at the range to see how I can handle them and then continue to practice with 158 gr and less in 357. I am new to revolvers( this 649 is my first) so I apologize in advance if this is a dumb or repeatedly asked question, I did search other threads on this forum and did not find a definitive answer, some peoples opinions were to never give a jframe a steady diet of 357 so that confused me even more. Just trying to figure out how to protect myself currently efficiently and decrease the chances I blow the top of my gun. Thanks in advance.

 

[murphydog]

You're going to get a few opinions on this one...

I think if you are comfortable with the 158 gr .357s you currently use (meaning you practice fast follow up shots and reloads regularly) that I would stick with that load. The 180 gr BB loads will not blow your 649 up but steady full .357 use of any kind puts extra stress on the gun compared to lighter loads. If you run into something big the .357 load you use is not going to matter all that much, but you're going to need a lot of them...

Also, I don't what a "350" pressure limit means. Usually this is expressed in pounds per square inch, with .357s running in the 40,000 + range.

 

[Pointblank2U]

I shoot Remington 357 Golden Sabers in my J Frames and they work just find. They are not punishing at all and I don't worry about wearing out the guns.

 

[2ndAmendmentNut]

A few rounds of BB ammo will do more damage to your wrist than it will to your gun. Practice with 38s for both your benefit and the guns. 357s should be reserved to a few familiarization shots at the range and not a steady diet of them. Also I would not go lighter than 147gr loads in 357. The lighter faster bullets are known to cause more wear than a the heavier loads.

That being said BB loads their ammo within SAMMI specs. I don't know how, but they do. So your j frame is not going to blow up from a few shots, but it will obviously be harder on it than lighter 357s and 38s.

 

[snubbiefan]

A friend of mine called BB to see if they would tell him how they manage to get some of their ammo to "do what it does" in terms of performance. I do not think he ever got a straight answer.

IMHO there is simply no need to search-out a round that will deliver a marginally few more ft/pounds of energy when there is plenty of other safe loads in commercial SD ammo available. If you want a howitzer, get a howitzer. Your gun will last a lot longer shooting standard commercial loads.

 

[Silvergoose]

Island, while I am not trying to be flip about your question, do you think a difference of 22 grains will make a black bear or cougar die quicker? Can you or do you practice quick target aquestion? Unless the bear/cougar is in the bad breath range I am not sure I could hit a vital spot with a J frame regardless of ammo.
Botton line, if it feels good, do it. After all it is your gun.

Good Luck

 

[DonD]

I think some of the responses to the OP miss the point. Heavy BB 158gr JHPs are indeed HEAVY, much more potent than something like Blaser ammo and more potent than almost anything else on the market, faster than Double Tap as well. BIG difference in velocity between garden variety factory JHPs and their stuff.

My Ruger SP101 runs 1320fps/611 ft lbs out of a 3" barrel. Most factory JHPs barely clear 500 ft lbs out of a 4-6" barrel.

There is a very large difference in recoil in the 27oz SP between BB and say the few Remington JHPs I've tried. That ammo in a lighter J Frame won't be pleasant at all and will really slow down followup shots. I reload for 99% of my shooting.

BB may be right in saying that their ammo is safe in a J frame but it will be rough on it and probably shake it loose quickly. Don

 

[kaaskop49]

Hi Island, good to see you already use the CCI Blazer 158gr JHP .357 load. This is the load i use in my J-frame Model 60 magnum and my SP-101. Not as hot as regular 158s, but don't stand in front of it either.

You don't carry the 649 as a protection against bears. It is a small frame, heavy recoiling gun for daily carry and close-in defense against human predators, not bears. Seems you would want a heavier .357, such as a 686 or the Ruger equivalent, with a longer barrel. Or a longarm. These revolvers will handle the BB ammo you seem enamored of.

Practice is also an issue. How does one practice enough with custom ammunition that comes in 20-25 round boxes? The major mfgrs all produce 158 gr JSP or JHP loads hotter than our Blazers. I would stick with them.

 

[island]

First off thank you everyone for you opinions and help, I appreciate the diverse array of advice although I may be still slightly lost, or mabye just more likely to go into debt for a 629 that I've had my eye on.

You're going to get a few opinions on this one...

I think this ones the winner

=murphydog;137691498I think if you are comfortable with the 158 gr .357s you currently use (meaning you practice fast follow up shots and reloads regularly) that I would stick with that load. The 180 gr BB loads will not blow your 649 up but steady full .357 use of any kind puts extra stress on the gun compared to lighter loads. If you run into something big the .357 load you use is not going to matter all that much, but you're going to need a lot of them...

Also, I don't what a "350" pressure limit means. Usually this is expressed in pounds per square inch, with .357s running in the 40,000 + range.

Murphy Dog i forget what the S&W guy said it started with a T like transsistor pressure, he was talking about the pressure in the cylinder and reference SAMMI as I think that was what the poster below was referencing.

A few rounds of BB ammo will do more damage to your wrist than it will to your gun. Practice with 38s for both your benefit and the guns. 357s should be reserved to a few familiarization shots at the range and not a steady diet of them. Also I would not go lighter than 147gr loads in 357. The lighter faster bullets are known to cause more wear than a the heavier loads.

That being said BB loads their ammo within SAMMI specs. I don't know how, but they do. So your j frame is not going to blow up from a few shots, but it will obviously be harder on it than lighter 357s and 38s.

Thanks for the advice 2ndamendmentnut, im sure I may get even more opinions by asking this but this is what im here for, I was under the impression that for the most part I should practice with what I load with for follow up shots, and target acquisition which yes Silvergoose I do practice, and I am quicker with the 38s and come a close second with blazers and I agree i cant afford to practice frequently with any of BB ammo.

Again I appreciate all the advice, and I still have some thinking to do, I aggree I believe I am slightly underguned but at this point financially my 649 is the only packable gun I own, I would have a hard time back woods fishing with my 30-06 or shotgun on my back. Either way I think I have a higher chance in running into a crazed two legged predator with a filet knife in some of the areas I fish which my 649 is more than adequate to handle, I was ultimately just worried that if it came down to close - bad breath scenario with a bear or cougar, (The only time I wish I had a firearm with me in the woods, was when my dog chased a couger off that we didn't notice stalking us at night till it was closer than 20 yards) is that I have the best ammo loaded possible, if there isn't a major difference between 158 gr and 180 gr SP as far as penetration and damage at close range through the thick skin of a 4 legged predator, can someone recommend a 158 gr SP to use for this purpose until I buy my .44?

 

[Kestrel]

I carry those Buffalo Bore 180's in my j-frame 60-10 when in the backwoods and I have a lot of confidence in that setup.

I set up my wife's 60-15 with the same load, she went through 5 rounds of it to finish getting her revolver sighted in and didn't mind it that much.
My mom (78 year old great-grandmother) has packed a Ruger medium frame (can't recall the model) .357 6" bbl in bear country for many decades, and now she keeps her Ruger loaded with that ammo as well.

I grew up in AK and used to carry a 29 (and later a 629) with 240 gr SP's (and later 300 gr JSP's). However, I have more faith in my 60-10 with those BB 180's than the 240 gr .44 Mag load, the BB 180's are some of the best .357 ammo ever loaded IMO and the only .357 ammo I'd consider in bear country.

I did set up a friend of mine here in Oregon with an older Model 64 .38 Spl. and the Buffalo Bore 'Outdoorsman' 158 gr hardcast .38's and I don't think he has much to worry about either. I have purchased a few boxes of that ammo for myself but haven't tried it out yet, it does look to be amazing ammo for .38 Spl.

FWIW my 60-10 has seen many thousands of .38's but only a few .357's and I expect that trend to continue.

Best of luck,

 

[sac-gunslinger]

I use BB's 180 grain load in my 357 Magnum rifle, gives good accuracy and improved punch. But even in the rifle you can tell it is a stout load. I would not want to shoot it in a small, light gun, too much punishment for my hands (four operations on them).

Buffalo does offer several standard pressure loads with reasonable performance. The 158 grain LSWCHCGC (load 20A I think) offers 850 FPS out of a 2" barrel and is emminently manageable in recoil.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Well, island, while you're thinking about it, you might try an experiment. Let me point out that I am not a fan of .357 Magnum rounds in J-frames. But it has nothing to do with whether or not the gun can handle the round. If they're rated for it by S&W they'll handle it.

Here's the experiment:

Take your J-frame to the range, stoke it with your favorite magnum rounds, place a silhouette target at about 20 feet, a bear silhouette would be excellent, and double tap that target. Meanwhile, have a friend spot for you; he can tell you where you hit quicker than you can find the holes and he can tell you how you reacted when the gun went off, how fast you recovered from recoil for the second shot, etc.

If you didn't put two holes into vital target areas or bulls-eyes (I'll settle for the 9 ring for this experiment) in less than 2 seconds try it again. If you still can't do it reload and try again.

By now your hand should unhappily not want to try a fourth time. But go ahead if you can.

After the smoke clears try the same thing with a K, N, or L frame. It won't take too long before you determine that (1) the phrase "shot a little and carried a lot" when it comes to heavy kicking J-frames was invented for a reason and (2) your accuracy with a larger gun will prove to you that a J-frame is inadequate for bear defense because recovery time for shot number 2 takes too long if you're under attack and you can't hit much going really fast with a .357 magnum J-frame. Bear defense, never mind cougar defense (faster, swifter, and smaller than a bear) simply is not the role the J-frame was invented for.

***GRJ***

 

[Hapworth]

I carry those Buffalo Bore 180's in my j-frame 60-10 when in the backwoods and I have a lot of confidence in that setup...

I grew up in AK and used to carry a 29 (and later a 629) with 240 gr SP's (and later 300 gr JSP's). However, I have more faith in my 60-10 with those BB 180's than the 240 gr .44 Mag load...

I like your set-up but am curious if the greater faith you place in it over the .44 magnum loads is based on theoretical reasoning or practical experience?

 

[Kestrel]

I like your set-up but am curious if the greater faith you place in it over the .44 magnum loads is based on theoretical reasoning or practical experience?

I'm very happy to say that I don't have practical experience vis. shooting bears with a handgun.

That said, the potential penetration of that BB load is key. The 180 gr .357 has a SD of .202 while a 240 gr .429 is only .186. The velocities will be similar (please note that this isn't exactly apples-to-apples as I am talking about older 240gr .44 Mags, not the newest high-performance offerings) although the .429's will naturally punch a bigger hole. Please remember that I was carrying the 29/629's in AK back in the late 80's to mid '90's, before the 300 gr's began to be more in the mainstream.

I most certainly don't want to start yet another .357 vs .44 Mag debate and get this thread sidetracked , I just wanted to point out to the OP that the BB 180's could be considered viable for what he is looking for. A $30 box of BB ammo is pretty cheap for some peace of mind. This was at least my conclusion since I've left AK (& sold my .44) and don't spend time in serious bear country anymore.

 

[sapo]

I carry this load (180 gr BB) in my 4" model 19 when in the woods. The recoil to me is pretty stout. I can't imagine shooting it out of a j frame.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I carry this load (180 gr BB) in my 4" model 19 when in the woods. The recoil to me is pretty stout. I can't imagine shooting it out of a j frame.

My point, exactly.

BB loads are well made, though, no question about it. I have them for my .38 S&W J-frame. Makes it a potent little pocket gun on the rare occasion I switch out from my 642.

The whole point of my experiment above was to establish (I already know) for island that if he really gets into trouble with big game in the wild he's carrying the wrong gun. J-frames were never intended for use on charging bears and getting off a decent first shot is hard enough, never mind a follow up (double tapping is really non-existent with that kind of recoil).

For my taste, for real "dangerous woods" guns, I'm packing a Model 686+ or a Model 27. A friend of mine lives right in the middle of Colorado bear country. He doesn't go outside without a Colt Python or a SIG in .357 SIG (he's very partial to his pistols; I'm not inclined to carry anything less than .357 Magnum in a big revolver in his circumstances). The J-frame is for dinner in town.....



***GRJ***

 

[Kestrel]

Sorry but I don't know what all the concern is about 180 grs from a steel J-frame.

My mom is a 78-year old great-grandmother and after trying five of them in my j-frame, did state her preference for shooting them from her medium-frame Ruger instead, so I guess that's something.

Edit: I'm not a glutton for punishment since I do detest the sharp recoil of +P's from my 2" bbl AirLite Ti.
These 180's aren't as bad as that, when they are shot from a small steel frame.
It's a 3" full-underlug, if that helps - I'm sure it's worse with a shorter/lighter bbl.

 

[island]

Well thanks a bunch everyone, really like the points that habe been brought up. I think Ill keep the 649 loaded with the BB if I every need that gun for woods carry or a woods BUG but lay off a heavy diet of the stouter 357 for weekly practice, and better yet I now have the justification for dropping some cash on a .44 , Might be seeing a post soon regarding which one..