Ammo comparison of four brands (9mm Luger)

Last week, when I posted the picture of some flawed Winchester 9mm Luger, it attracted lot of attention and criticism, in no means I was trying to mislead anyone.
This morning, I purchased some Winchester 9mm (WWB), here are the ammo from four different manufacturers. From Left to right, they are:

Federal champion (115gr, Made in USA), Winchester WB (115gr, Made in USA), Geco 124gr (Made in Switzerland) and Lapua 123gr (Made in Finland), the price per round is : $0.22, $0.24, $0.30 and $0.79. So far I have not compared them at the shooting range, but based on my observation, the recent lot of Winchester WB looks excellent.

Another ammo I have not seen since November was the Remington UMC 9mm, I have noticed that the projectile is pushed in (the exposed part clearly shorter), as witnessed by others. I called Remington about it, they were so arrogant and didn't want to explain why it is shorter. My major concern is high internal pressure
Remington UMC Ammo 9mm Luger 124 Grain Full Metal Jacket

I am of Swiss origin (paternal grandparents from Thurgau, maternal grandparents from Ticino (they speak Italian), so I am very fussy about details, I used to work for Chevrolet, which is pretty much junk (also of Swiss origin, Neuchâtel, French speaking). I toured Switzerland 3 months ago and their attention to quality makes Americans ashamed, even the Italian speaking Swiss people are very quality conscientious, though the popular joke in (German speaking) Switzerland that these folks are actually Italian, not Swiss.

The projectiles from different manufactures will have different construction characteristics. One may have a flat jacketed base, one a hollow jacketed base, and another a flat or hollow unjacketed base. Toss in variations in the ogive of the bullet, bullet weight, jacket thickness, powder used, and all the other components, it is not surprising that cartridge overall all length may vary from brand to brand. So long as the round is within spec it should not be an issue.

If you have a box of Remington and there is a noticeable variation in the length of the cartridges in the same box, then I'd say there is a problem. Comparing length between brands is not relevant as long as the rounds conform the maximum and minimum lengths

Brand to brand variations are why it is recommended that you fire 200 to 400 rounds of that particular ammo through your specific gun before carrying that particular ammo for defense.

I am aware of what you said, for 115gr FMJ, all brands except Remington (I have tried Blazer/Federal/Winchester/Fiocchi/Magtech/PMC/Norinco/S&B/Tula/PPU/Geco/Lapua/RWS) has the same dimension. Hmm, I guess Remington is different since they are the largest brand in the ammo business. (ATK has multiple brands, so they are the largest manufacturer)

jap85 said:

I am aware of what you said, for 115gr FMJ, all brands except Remington (I have tried Blazer/Federal/Winchester/Fiocchi/Magtech/PMC/Norinco/S&B/Tula/PPU/Geco/Lapua/RWS) has the same dimension. Hmm, I guess Remington is different since they are the largest brand in the ammo business. (ATK has multiple brands, so they are the largest manufacturer)

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So what measurements did you come up with when you measured the various brands with your calipers?

Oh my.

Friend, let me start out by saying I drive a Chevy, which I love.

For a perfectionist, I'm surprised that you mistake "Geico" for GECO.

Your comment "even the Italian speaking Swiss" is offensive and prejudicial.

You provide no actual measurements. Your comments are based on visual observation only.

Your posts are inaccurate, offensive, and worthless.

I have Geco ammo in 25,32, 380 acp and 9mm. All made in Germany.
Are you sure your Geco 9mm was made in Switzerland? Chevys are
pretty much junk? Really? How many have you bought new that proved
to be junk? What other domestic brands have you bought new that
gave good service long after your Chevies fell apart?

You can take a look

Here is the picture of the 124gr 9mm ans 223 Geco

moxie said:

Oh my.

Friend, let me start out by saying I drive a Chevy, which I love.

For a perfectionist, I'm surprised that you mistake "Geico" for GECO.

Your comment "even the Italian speaking Swiss" is offensive and prejudicial.

You provide no actual measurements. Your comments are based on visual observation only.

Your posts are inaccurate, offensive, and worthless.

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Moxie,

At least he is sticking with visual comparisons of 9 MM FMJ. It scares me to think about the conclusions he'd come up with comparing high end JHP rounds.

I ran out the Remington UMC 9mm long time ago, but the protruding profectile is shorter, as it was visually so obvious. Anyone who used their UMC FMJ can tell you this. I am posting here simply because I wonder why their 9mm FMJ is shorter than everyone else! I apologize for using the "even the Italian speaking Swiss" (German Swiss people said so to me), as I know political correctness is paramount in the USA.

Very often you hear people/media saying "Gut nuts are mentally challenged (I avoid the st*p** word), now I can see why people say so, I do witness people here who tend to have hindered vision/understanding of the reality!

jap85,

I hit the reloading manuals hoping to find a way to explain the variations you are seeing.

The acceptable min/max (brass) case lengths for 9 mm Luger are 0.744" to 0.754".

The maximum cartridge overall length (COAL) is 1.168".

For 115 grain FMJ-RN Bullets:

My Speer manual specifies a COAL of 1.135"
My Hornady manual specifies a COAL of 1.105"
My Nosler manual specifies a COAL of 1.100"
My Sierra manual specifies a COAL of 1.100"


For 124 - 125 grain bullets there is even more variation.

With very good eyesight you may be able to see variations of 0.01". Concluding that the variation you see means the ammo is inferior is just plain wrong. Even if the ammo proves inferior in your gun you are making the conclusion based on visual comparison without measurement or testing.

kwselke said:

jap85,

I hit the reloading manuals hoping to find a way to explain the variations you are seeing.
The acceptable min/max (brass) case lengths for 9 mm Luger are 0.744" to 0.754".
The maximum cartridge overall length (COAL) is 1.168".
For 115 grain FMJ-RN Bullets:
My Speer manual specifies a COAL of 1.135"
My Hornady manual specifies a COAL of 1.105"
My Nosler manual specifies a COAL of 1.100"
My Sierra manual specifies a COAL of 1.100"

For 124 - 125 grain bullets there is even more variation.

With very good eyesight you may be able to see variations of 0.01". Concluding that the variation you see means the ammo is inferior is just plain wrong. Even if the ammo proves inferior in your gun you are making the conclusion based on visual comparison without measurement or testing.

Click to expand...

I never implied it would be inferior, but I was extremely curious. Actually my eyesight is not good, and anyone who is not blind can see the difference, sorry, I don't have Remington UMC 9mm with me, and many people have seen the same thing:

GunBroker.com Message Forums - Winchester 9mm vs. Remington UMC
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/primary/178/178581.jpg
FINAL: Remington UMC vs. Ruger SR9c - Remington Owns Up | The Truth About Guns
Remington UMC 9mm | free2beinamerica
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5WEabjhcuA

As a responsible gun owner, I think it is important to be strong, firm against any 2A encroachment (these gun control policies masqueraded as crime-fighting legislation), but so many people here are just paranoid, loving conspiracy theory, etc, no wonder many people think gun owners are dumb. (I do believe the Obama's administration's Fast&Furious has other motives other than these stated)

I have seen no one complained about the use of UMC 9mm, so it is most likely to be fine, it is just that everyone else has the same dimension except Remington, as someone who is 65y old, my curiosity is like 2 year old!

jap85 said:

I never implied it would be inferior, but I was extremely curious. Actually my eyesight is not good, and anyone who is not blind can see the difference, sorry, I don't have Remington UMC 9mm with me, and many people have seen the same thing:

GunBroker.com Message Forums - Winchester 9mm vs. Remington UMC
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/primary/178/178581.jpg
FINAL: Remington UMC vs. Ruger SR9c - Remington Owns Up | The Truth About Guns
Remington UMC 9mm | free2beinamerica
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5WEabjhcuA

As a responsible gun owner, I think it is important to be strong, firm against any 2A encroachment (these gun control policies masqueraded as crime-fighting legislation), but so many people here are just paranoid, loving conspiracy theory, etc, no wonder many people think gun owners are dumb. (I do believe the Obama's administration's Fast&Furious has other motives other than these stated)

I have seen no one complained about the use of UMC 9mm, so it is most likely to be fine, it is just that everyone else has the same dimension except Remington, as someone who is 65y old, my curiosity is like 2 year old!

Click to expand...

You say you have poor eyesight. You have no measurements, and I presume no tools for measuring. Your references are links to complaints others have made. You have none of the Remington UMC ammo you were writing about. I now understand it aint worth the effort try to explain further.

kwselke said:

You say you have poor eyesight. You have no measurements, and I presume no tools for measuring. Your references are links to complaints others have made. You have none of the Remington UMC ammo you were writing about. I now understand it aint worth the effort try to explain further.

Click to expand...

I had Remington UMC in the past, it was always shorter than Blazer/Federal and PMC, I am simply curious to know why is that, yet you are ignoring the pervasive evidence that Remington UMC 9mm FMJ is actually shorter.

jap85 said:

I had Remington UMC in the past, it was always shorter than Blazer/Federal and PMC, I am simply curious to know why is that, yet you are ignoring the pervasive evidence that Remington UMC 9mm FMJ is actually shorter.

Click to expand...

Shorter than what? Buy a few reloading manuals and learn what makes quality ammo.

kwselke said:

...With very good eyesight you may be able to see variations of 0.01"...

Click to expand...

Not even a lonely old widow woman with bifocals could differentiate that much.

Wow round 2...ding ding ding!!!

Id hate to see how long it would take you to load my AK mags. Considering 30 round mags and Russian ammo.

Anyway, bud, you donr have to be so anal with ammo. As long as none are oddly visibly deformed. They don't all have to be identical from company to company.

Shoot, enjoy, repeat.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

jap85 said:

I had Remington UMC in the past, it was always shorter than Blazer/Federal and PMC, I am simply curious to know why is that, yet you are ignoring the pervasive evidence that Remington UMC 9mm FMJ is actually shorter.

Click to expand...

I just checked five rounds of 115 FMJ ammo from different
manufacturers for OAL with a micrometer. From longest to
shortest they are; Lapua 1.164",PMP 1.152", Fereral 1.150",
Augila 1.113", Remington 1.108". Remington is the shortest
of these but is only five thousands shorter than Aguila.
Obviously there are differences in OAL between different
brands of ammo with the same weight bullet. This is by no
means confined to 9 mm FMJ ammo but is normal due to
different bullet profiles and factory loading practices. Your
assumption that deeper seated bullets from Remington will
cause excessive pressure is a misapplication of handloading
principles to factory ammo. The reason that Remington
ammo is shorter is that Remington ammo is shorter. Don't
worry about it. If you don't like their ammo buy another
brand.