.40 S&W vs .357 Sig

Five months ago I tried a shooting buddy's MP40c. I was so impressed with its accuracy that I went out and bought one. Pleased with this, my first polymer gun and my first .40 SW, I then purchased the full size version. Prior to that, my handguns have been in the .44 and .45 flavor except for my 442 CCW. Because of my age, health, etc., my shooting, although frequent, is confined to punching holes in paper. Anyway, I run into a fellow shooter at a gunshow. He is a CC instructor and wannabe firearms expert. I'm bragging about my MP40's and this clown unloads on me about how worthless the .40SW cartridge is and how far superior the .357 Sig is. I don't know squat about the .357 Sig so I don't argue. All the way home I'm fuming about the conversation. I dig out my reloader manual and compare the ballistics. The first thing that strikes me is the lack of versatility in loads for the .357 Sig and no real ballistic superiority. What say you?

Caliber wars are nonproductive...

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. This gentleman obviously has his own opinion of the .40 S&W... and the .357 Sig. To each his own!

The .40 S&W was designed to meet the needs of policemen who needed more than what the 9mm would at that time provide while at the same time giving greater magazine capacity in a small frame pistol useable by the vast majority of people.

The .357 Sig. reflects efforts by sig to come up with a round that will mimic the well-respected .357 S&W Magnum. With 125 gr. loads, it is a good mimic as far as velocity goes. As to the sort of outstanding results that were the norm of the .357 S&W Magnum, time will tell. The big problem for the sig round will be getting beyond boutique status. The sig round probably will do a good job of punching holes in old refrigerators, etc. If used in a SD situation, it will likely do as well as any other decent round. It is unlikely to do a significantly better job. Now when it comes to punching holes in old abandoned refrigerators and washing machines, it'll doubtless be very effective indeed!

OLDNAVYMCPO said:

Five months ago I tried a shooting buddy's MP40c. I was so impressed with its accuracy that I went out and bought one. Pleased with this, my first polymer gun and my first .40 SW, I then purchased the full size version. Prior to that, my handguns have been in the .44 and .45 flavor except for my 442 CCW. Because of my age, health, etc., my shooting, although frequent, is confined to punching holes in paper. Anyway, I run into a fellow shooter at a gunshow. He is a CC instructor and wannabe firearms expert. I'm bragging about my MP40's and this clown unloads on me about how worthless the .40SW cartridge is and how far superior the .357 Sig is. I don't know squat about the .357 Sig so I don't argue. All the way home I'm fuming about the conversation. I dig out my reloader manual and compare the ballistics. The first thing that strikes me is the lack of versatility in loads for the .357 Sig and no real ballistic superiority. What say you?

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It sounds like you had a predisposition against the 357SIG before you talked to your fellow shooter.

You refer to him as a "Clown" for touting the virtues of a cartridge that you admittedly know squat about over a cartridge that you have recently discovered you like. Perhaps his attitude was out of line. I do not know, I was not there.

Different cartridges have different advantages in different roles and different people have different personal preferences.

I will say this.....for your desired shooting....Paper Punching, either cartridge has sufficient ballistics.

For the role of a State Trooper, I would choose the superior penetration of the 357SIG over the 40S&W every time. I only carry a 40 when the agency I am working for forces me to.

The 357SIG was never designed to be a versatile cartridge. The goal was to create a cartridge for auto loaders that would duplicate the ballistics of the #1 single shot stopping cartridge in all recorded history of shootings, The 357 Magnum 125 JHP from a 2 1/2" - 4" revolver. The 357SIG achieves that goal

This is the cartridge that the Secret Service uses to protect dignitaries (foreign and domestic), it is the cartridge the Federal Air Marshals use to kEep our Skies safe, it is the cartridge that the Texas DPS and Ranges use to patrol that great state and it is the cartridge that is in use by many dozens of other Government and Law Enforcement agencies around the country. So it can not be all that bad.

I have been using the 357SIG cartridge in various platforms for more than a decade and a half. Everything from the little SIG P239s for concealed carry



Up the an MP5 Sub Machine Gun



And everything in between including S&W SIGMAS, HK USPs and 2000s and even SIG Sport and X5 target pistols.

I am not asking you to like the 357SIG, everyone has persona tastes.....just please do not call those that prefer it's performance to the 40S&W "CLOWNS"

The reference to this character as a clown is due to his attitude and behavior rather than his knowledge since I had no way of judging the two calibers at the time. I was sincerely seeking info here, not trying to provoke an argument.

OLDNAVYMCPO said:

The reference to this character as a clown is due to his attitude and behavior rather than his knowledge since I had no way of judging the two calibers at the time. I was sincerely seeking info here, not trying to provoke an argument.

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I got what you were saying, oldnavy, think you musta hit a nerve or something...

OLDNAVYMCPO said:

Five months ago I tried a shooting buddy's MP40c. I was so impressed with its accuracy that I went out and bought one. Pleased with this, my first polymer gun and my first .40 SW, I then purchased the full size version. Prior to that, my handguns have been in the .44 and .45 flavor except for my 442 CCW. Because of my age, health, etc., my shooting, although frequent, is confined to punching holes in paper. Anyway, I run into a fellow shooter at a gunshow. He is a CC instructor and wannabe firearms expert. I'm bragging about my MP40's and this clown unloads on me about how worthless the .40SW cartridge is and how far superior the .357 Sig is. I don't know squat about the .357 Sig so I don't argue. All the way home I'm fuming about the conversation. I dig out my reloader manual and compare the ballistics. The first thing that strikes me is the lack of versatility in loads for the .357 Sig and no real ballistic superiority. What say you?

Click to expand...

I converted my M&P 40 to 357Sig using a KKM stainless barrel using the stock 40 cal magazine definitely has more kick then the 40 I roll my own using Extreme 115 gr flat nose lead HS6 powder at 8.7 to 9.4 gr accuracy about the same New ammo is rather high at about 30 to 35 dollars per 50. I only found one member at the range I belong to shooting this round , he gave me about 100 casings and said he would keep any more for me

I don't have a dog in this fight. (I use 9mm) These 2 calibers are ballistically a tie. That being said I would rather own the 40 because of ammo cost and availability. I do like the muzzle blast from the 357 sig.

IMO the 357 SIG/40 S&W comparison is slightly reminiscent of the .41 Mag vs .44 Mag argument ,
.41 mag while slightly hotter is far less prolific and costs more per round and ultimately both get the job done .

Another odd similarity from a revolver standpoint is that .44 magnum revolvers can fire 44 special and 10mm revos can fire 40 S&W where the later .41 Mag can only fire .41 mag and while there is no .357 Sig revolver if there was it could only fire 357 Sig.

I think a better comparison would be a .223 & .243 or even .223-7mm. Same case with smaller bullet. Smaller faster bullet vs bigger slower....

A .41 special does exist, just not common, or cheap. Midway has a box of 50 brass only for $61.99.

In 40 cal, I own a G22 and a G23..In 357 Sig, I own the G32..
I shoot all equally well.. I like that the 23 and the 32 are the same size, same holsters, same mags, at least the mags interchange with no issues..At an indoor range the 32 will get a lot of looks and what the heck was that?, after firing a few rds..

.357 SIG Vs. .40 S&W

Up front, I do not want to be on the receiving end of either cartridge. Both came out rather close together, the result being, the .40, which got to market first, had more time to establish roots in the LE community while the SIG foundered a bit through no fault of its own.

The SIG does not need to be versatile. It is pretty much a one-optimized load designed to perform one critical function: stop a felon/adversary as efficiently as possible. If your plans call for the round to double for small game/survival, the SIG may not be your number one choice.

In the SIG's favor is the bottleneck design which certainly should reduce feeding/chambering issues for increased reliability.

With about 20 to 25 years of street history, it seems that the.40 S&W did not prove to be the death ray that LEOs were looking for. It's snappy recoil certainly makes it more difficult for smaller statured individuals to qualify with it. Even the FBI, which pioneered the search for a more effective cartridge over then existing rounds, is rumored to be returning to the 9mm.

By merely changing barrels, you may shoot either a .357 SIG or the 40 in the same gun. You can have your cake and eat it!

I've always found the 40 caliber to be a very well thought out compromise between the 9mm and the 45 ACP. As for the 357 Sig, yeah it pretty much duplicates the ballistic of one single version of the 357 Magnum. As for the "one shot man stopping power" of that particular variant of the 357 Magnum, I take claims like that with a LOT of suspicion in regards to ANY handgun round. The simple truth is that with just one shot a 200 lbs. man or beast can only be stopped if it's VERY WELL PLACED.

Positives for the 40 caliber. One, it's relatively economical when compared to the 357 Sig. Two, it can be obtained with bullets ranging from 135 grains to as much as 200 grains. Three, after the 2008 presidential election it was about the only caliber that could be found with any regularity. Four, it's a rather easy caliber to reload. Then finally there is Power. Load up a 135 grain solid copper hollow point to 1400 fps and you have a slightly bigger version of that famous 125 grain 357 Magnum. Yeah, the "40 Short and Weak" can produce a 1400 fps muzzle velocity at standard SAAMI pressures with the correct powder.

Problems with the 357 Sig. First, it is expensive. Second, it can be very difficult to find unless you are purchasing in bulk as a State or Federal agency. Three, it's expensive. Four, it's limited to a rather small selection of bullet weights. Five, it's a tricky caliber to reload and the short neck length means that it's more prone to setback issues than most other handgun calibers.

BTW, I reload for the 357 Magnum and actually producing 1400 fps bullet velocities with a 125 grain bullet requires a load with what I consider to be excessive muzzle flash and post barrel blast. On the other hand my practice load of a 165 grain 40 caliber at 1150 fps is easy to control, only slightly flashy, and a complete ballistic match for the High Energy Speer Gold Dot I carry with.

you are fortunate. With a .40 M&P you can buy both a 9mm and .357sig barrel and shoot all three calibers out of your same gun. I bought nearly new factory barrels for less than $100 each. Only thing else I needed was a few 9mm M&P mags which I bought from Aim I think for $25 each.
I do like the. 357sig the best. Awesome SD round with the right load. A little pricey to plink with however right now.

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Having used the .357 Sig for 10 years as a personal use cartridge I have no issues with it. It does what it was intended to, the recoil, at least for me is less snappy than a standard .40, although the muzzle blast is a bit more. You can shoot farther if needed and flatter, also if needed, and it does nicely against barriers. I have only used it once against other than an inanimate object and said object went down immediately. No, not a self defense situation but the object was a one shot stop with a 125 Gold Dot.
The round is bottlenecked for reliability and I have never had a feed jam in 1500 rounds or so. I'm sure the .40 cal will do just as well so it is as a previous poster stated, your choice. For my money, and many LE agencies money, I'll take the .357 Sig. Just my personal choice is all.

There are pros and cons for each. Here's my top 3 pros and cons, contrasted against each other, for each:

357 Sig pros:
--Higher velocity
--Lower recoil
--Lower cartridge weight (a loaded mag will weigh about 2oz less, each; can add up)
357 Sig cons:
--Expensive
--Extremely limited load choices
--A chore to reload (bottlenecked cartridge, like a tiny rifle case)

.40 S&W pros:
--Cheap ammo
--Available ammo; even during this past shortage
--Tons of good hollow point loads to choose from
.40 S&W cons:
--Finicky cartridge to reload; kaboom risk for carelessness
--Recoil is brisk; especially in light guns
--Tends to beat up guns, especially if regular maintenance not performed

I carry a Glock 23 fairly often (.40); the biggest draw for me to switch to the 357 Sig cartridge (Glock 32) would be the weight reduction of my carry loadout while still keeping a powerful cartridge and decent size gun.

To the OP: The .357 SIG has garnered a good reputation for stopping power and GREAT accuracy.

The .357 SIG is an effort by SIG to have its name associated with a cartridge (like S&W with the .40). Its original marketing was that it duplicated .357 Magnum revolver ballistics (125 grain at 1,400), however, in the P229 it only does about what that famous revolver load did in a 2 1/2 inch K frame. Performance in the P226 is up to revolver standards, however. That is pretty good, but it does it at high ammo cost, crazy high pressure, lower capacity than 9mm (and there are 9mm rounds that are equivalent ballistics - see below), significant blast, recoil, slower follow-up shots and it seems to chew up guns at an alarming rate.

The ."357" SIG is not .357 at all. It is .355, which is 9mm. The .357 SIG is really a 9mm bullet stuffed essentially into a .40 S&W case which has been necked down to 9mm. Ballistically, the .357 SIG is about the same as the Winchester 9mm load known as RA9TA, the 9mm 127 grain +P+. You need only check the ballistics tables to confirm this. Penetration is not significantly different either. A quick look at the tables in the Winchester LE catalog will confirm this.

Texas DPS is switching from .357 SIG back to 9mm, as are many agencies, and although Texas claims it had a glitch with its first batch of M&P 9 pistols, that plan is apparently still on the table, at least as of now. And, of all the federal agencies, only Secret Service uses the .357 SIG across the board, and I think their needs are unique as they may face assassins or assault teams wearing vests, for which they have special ammo that is simply not available to ordinary US law enforcement or regular private citizens.

There is a reason that in the ICE/Homeland Security tests several years ago that the ONLY pistol approved in .357 SIG was the Heckler and Koch brand. The round is punishing, and even the SIG brand of pistol was not approved. The round is punishing on the gun itself. S&W discontinued its M&P in .357 SIG and its SIGMA (SW357VE) version of the .357 SIG was cataloged for only a year or so, although it was quite reliable and accurate.

That said, if you can live with its disadvantages, the .357 SIG will perform as advertised. For me, however, I do not believe it performs so much better than other rounds that the disadvantages are worth it.

EDIT: It was probably not good for the "clown" to "unload" on you, and if he did so, I understand your point in referring to him as a "clown." That said, it is probably best if all shooters could recognize that there is plenty of room under the tent for shooters of all kinds who like calibers of all kinds, and guns of all kinds.

Performance wise, there is no demonstrable difference in validated testing among the 9, .357SIG, .40, and 45ACP in service loads with modern hollowpoint ammo. What I have seen is that the agencies that use .357SIG tend to be more serious about training, and that variable is what really makes the difference in performance in OIS. A Lt. from a midwestern agency has posted on other forums about the success they have had with the 9mm +P 124 grain gold dot, and attributes it mostly to ... training. Go figure. (And all pistol rounds suck - anyone who is going to a conflict and not taking a rifle, or a slug loaded shotgun if they don't have a rifle, is not very smart). As for limited bullet weight choices, the cartridge was designed around the 125 grain weight, and as far as I know was not intended for any other weight.

I have a G33 that has been my EDC for quite a while, and was my BUG in a uniform. It has been FAR more reliable than the G26 it replaced, but is several orders of magnitude less pleasant to shoot. Since reliability is non-negotiable, it is workable, but a reliable 9mm with good duty ammo would be just as good and a lot cheaper. My new holster (Fricke "Nehemiah") allows me to carry my 19L a lot easier than I could before, so I am carrying it more.

I have no interest in the .40, for lots of reasons not important here. If I had to carry one, no doubt it would be an M&P; the glocks are simply unsat. I expect that the case or so of .357SIG Gold Dot I have put away is enough for the rest of my life under most conditions.

I have carried a SIG 229 as a police officer for 16 years....I worked at SIG and trained there....think back to the 9MM is dead....and now its back....its the performance of the round...I have put thousands of 125 GDs through my duty 229, and my personal 226. I also have the 40 cal barrel for both. The 40 is a man stopper in the 155 or 165 GDs. As has been stated by other badge toters here it was designed for one thing and it works extremely well. I have shot a lot of rounds at vehicles and through windshields (@ Sig)....someone mentioned its only good for shooting old refrigerators? Well as police we want to have the most flexible weapons...and the 357 Sig 125 grain will end any fight it gets into. I have had to dispatch a lot of Deer and even a Moose and have never felt undergunned. In police shootings the 357 SIG has done what it was made to do.....

I second that.......

Dirtpogoinbroke said:

I don't have a dog in this fight. (I use 9mm) These 2 calibers are ballistically a tie. That being said I would rather own the 40 because of ammo cost and availability. I do like the muzzle blast from the 357 sig.

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I second that. There not much difference in terminal ballistics.
The sig is known for it's reliable feeding as well. If there is no problem with using either gun they both work well.