.44 Russian questions

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killswitch917

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I recently acquired a no3 Russian . It’s mechanically excellent . My question is can I shoot smokless .44 Russian cowboy loads in it ? How about .44 special cowboy loads ? Are there resources I can check the year of manufacture by serial number ? There is a cartouche above the left grip 1874 in a box . Thanks in advance !
 
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Post some pictures! By the way, welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass. Yes you can shoot smokeless rounds if it is in good mechanical condition. If you don't know how to check it, get a gunsmith to check it out. It sounds like it's an 1874 commercial model. But, pictures will help us do better.

Guy
 
I can’t figure out how to post . I’ll gladly email them to someone to post if I can get a message with an email address
 
Yes on the .44 Russian cowboy loads. No on the .44 Special loads which will be too long to chamber and too much pressure for the old Model 3.
 
The 1874 in the rectangular box probably indicated that it went to Shyler Hartley (and Graham ?) depending upon when it was shipped from S&W. Stay away from Buffalo Bore as it is loaded HOT.
 
killswitch917 said:
I can’t figure out how to post . I’ll gladly email them to someone to post if I can get a message with an email address
Click to expand...

Any free image host ( Fotki, others ).

Put the images there in an Album, then select "Image for forum", post that code in the text Box.
 
mmaher94087 said:
The 1874 in the rectangular box probably indicated that it went to Shyler Hartley (and Graham ?) depending upon when it was shipped from S&W. Stay away from Buffalo Bore as it is loaded HOT.
Click to expand...

Are you sure Buffalo Bore offers their peppy Loadings in .44 Russian?

Seems like that would be asking for trouble, for sure..!
 
I admit that I don't know specifically about the .44 Russian load. Their loadings for .38 specifically said Not For Top-break Revolvers so I extrapolated that to include the top-break Russian revolvers too.
 
It saddens me to see so many casually say, sure shoot those smokeless cowboy loads in a 146 year old gun designed to contain the pressure of 28g of black powder.

No one knows what that gun has been through in all those years. Maybe a previous owner was a fan of Elmer's and tried to make it a 44 Special with heavy smokeless loads. Unless you can have it magnafluxed (sp?) you don't know if it is ready to let go the next time the sudden spike of smokeless hits the cylinder.

Everyone is so bloody scared of having to clean up after shooting black powder. I'm way more scared of having an old piece of iron blow up in my hand and in front of my face while shooting it.

YMMV,
Dave
 
Rational behavior?

Be careful Dave T,

Common Sense doesn’t always fair well on this forum. Unlike the risk takers I’ve actually Magna-fluxed antique cylinders And derringer barrels. I’ve found hairline cracks that are not initially visible likely caused by smokeless powder use. The process actually makes the cracks become visible To the naked eye and leaves the magnetic powder within the hairline crack.

I’ve never seen or experienced a cartridge case crack longitudinally from a Black powder load but I’ve seen plenty of even light loads of smokeless cases crack often from stem to stern! Mouth to head!

Murph
 
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When questioning myself about a firearms structural integrity I always like to use the axiom of "Err on the side of caution." If a competent (someone with history and good reputation) gunsmith has deemed it worthy I would not hesitate to shoot modern "Cowboy" ammunition in .44 Russian. The most common mistake I see or have experienced is with an uneducated or inexperienced reloader loading up some bullets using the tables in the book and not following another reloading rule of starting low, or using modern manufactured powders which in some cases are slightly different from old powders and using "Dad's Old Load".
When I first got my .44 D.A. 1st Model I tried a box of Black Hills Cowboy ammo, I bought two boxes and figured that would set me up for reloading with enough brass to keep me happy. After the first box I reloaded them with black powder and was very satisfied with the results, I shoot more black powder than anything else so it was right in my wheelhouse. I ended up getting more virgin brass, and currently have a few other .44 Russian chambered firearms, it also works in anything chambered for .44 special or .44 magnum. The cowboy folks like it for its low recoil.
These are certainly not firearms one would intend on trying to wear out by constantly firing. It sounds like you want to have a box of ammunition to "give it a go" and see what its like. Feel safe with Black Hills stuff as long as it met the criteria of being considered safe by your gunsmith, take it out and have some fun with it. You are not going to get the full experience of what it was like to shoot back in the day unless you want to fool around with everything involved with black powder. Trust me... its like night and day, nothing smokeless comes close to the effect of the buck and smokey roar of black powder.
 
The Buffalo Bore loads I have seen are loaded right up to the Red Line!
Here’s the online list of current 44 Russian rounds.
Black Hills Cowboy action ammunition 210 grain lead flat point
Fiocchi ammunition 247 grain lead round nose
Ten-X ammunition blank BPC
Ten-X ammunition 200 grain lead round nose and flat point
JMJ Smith Ammo Inc. ammunition 200 grain lead round nose, flat point
Additionally, Starline Brass makes new, unprimed brass.
I have some Black Hills 44 Special, Smoking Cowboy Loads!
 
Dave T said:
. . . Everyone is so bloody scared of having to clean up after shooting black powder. I'm way more scared of having an old piece of iron blow up in my hand and in front of my face while shooting it . . .
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are quite scared of shooting smokeless in a 44 Russian?? Yes, clean up is relatively easy if you only clean the bore and wipe the gun down, but don't forget forget about the internals. BP smoke and residue gets everywhere, inside and out. I thoroughly cleaned my 44 Russians when I was shooting BP and will tell you that many shooters would not even know how to do it properly.

As for smokeless loads, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that low pressure smokeless loads pose any additional hazards to shooting over BP. Pressures can and are often lower for smokeless loads, and my reloading and shooting experience was that smokeless loads can offer substantially lower felt recoil than full-boat BP loading. My days of shooting 150 year old S&W hoglegs are over. All are sold and if I owned any today, I would not shoot them with any types of loads. Parts are non-existent, springs that have cycled for 150 years have to be on the verge of letting go, and outside of shooting one just to understand the history, how they operated, how they shot, they should be left for future generations of firearms historians and collectors to inspect and understand how important these early cartridge revolvers were to us.

If one wants to shoot boxes of either BP or smokeless 44 Russian ammo, buy an Uberti or S&W reproduction. Save the originals that are left in working order for the next generation to admire. Frankly, we are talking about one of the most ungainly and uncomfortable hoglegs to shoot ever made. I recall trying to cock the hammer of my Model 3 Russian 2nd & 3rd Models and realizing that you needed very large hands to do so over and over which I do not have.:)
 
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I load and Shoot my New Model 3s and Top-Break "DA"s which are .44 Russian, and I load Black Powder Cartridges for them.

I have reviewed this a few times, but basically I make and use a simple Beeswax Disc between Powder and Bullet, and I can shoot for ever with no fouling or Cylinder Binding, and if I forget to clean, nothing happens.

Clean up is easy, merely warm Soapy Water and a Nylon Bore Brush, dip the Bore Brush, clean Barrel Bore, clean Cylinder Bores...no need to soak the entire Revolver, no need to get Water in to it's mechanism...just dip and use the Nylon Bore Brush over the Kitchen Sink.

Initial dry for Barrel and Cylinder via simple wad of Kleenex or Toilet Paper, puch through with a Wooden Dowel.

Dry the Revolver with a Hand Held Hair Drier, laying it on a folded Towel, and propping up the Hair Drier...till it is warm enough to be thoroughly dry every where.

Nothing in shooting Black Powder has ever once gotten in to any internals for me, on any Black Powder Revolver...Cap & Ball or Metallic Cartridge.

Right Lube approach, all stays clean, and the most one ever sees is a tiny hint of wispy light grey film maybe at the Muzzle end, but not enough to be noticeable casually unless one is looking for it.

Hands stay clean, Revolver stays clean.

Super easy to do, works perfectly.

"Swiss" Powder...

Never "Goex"
 
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I myself do not shoot Smokeless Cartridges in my .44 Russian Top Breaks.

Indeed, one can fire Smokeless .44 Russian Cartridges in them and no doubt many people did so in the early 20th Century, and likely had no problems with it.

Now with lighter-than-standard-Loading "Cowboy Action" Cartridges in Smokeless, there really should be no worries with this.

I prefer Black Powder, so for me, it is a fun, simple, easy choice, and the way I described, my Revolvers stay as clean or cleaner than if using 'Unique'.

I enjoy Loading, so it is a "Win Win" all the way around.
 
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Newbee's

I agree with Phil and Kinman,
There is nothing like dialing in a Black powder gun with original loads.

I just notice that on this forum we tend to get a lot of Newbees....that just found a gun somewhere?

I'm not sure that we should be telling them to do anything but "have it checked out" before you consider shooting it. I mean there could be a lot of reasons the gun was found where it was found? It's not functioning? It's damaged, barrel bulge, cracks in a million places.Blown forcing cone?
Someone found one in an attic recently? I can only imagine what that bore looks like! Attic finds tend to be relics because of the horrible storage conditions. Freezing/damp in the Winter. Hot as a desert in the summer?

Smokeless or Black they are both quite capable of ruining ones day if you don't know what the &^%$ you are doing!

Murph
 
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Thanks Murph, I won't belabour the issue but I have done my fair share of experimenting with both black powder and smokeless and feel fortunate today to have all digits and both eyes. I whole heartedly advocate education ahead of experimentation with regards to firearm reloading and use.
I am the muzzle loading chairman at my local gun range, we are seeing a serious lack of interest by younger people and figure it will be dead inside of twenty years. The last retailer in this town of over 200K that sold black powder is done. You must drive 35 miles for the closest powder, 75 miles for the best deal and or have it shipped. In order to get a decent price you need to buy in 25lb lots which can be mixed grades (1F-4F Swiss or Goex)
Needless to say it makes it tough for the new guy to get into black powder without deep pockets and the will. We usually go together on a bulk purchase, that is the only way we can keep the price low enough to have any fun. Most of the guys that shoot black powder are over 50, the majority of them over 60, I only know of a handful of guys under 50 that have any interest in shooting black powder, muzzle or cartridge. We feel its only a matter of time before our local distributor packs it in, he has an internet outlet and is quite well known (Buffalo Arms) thats about all that keeps him going is his internet business. There are still a few national distributors you can deal with but there again you need to make a bulk purchase to avoid getting burned, we are facing a different shooting experience.
 
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