Kentucky: Permitless Carry Legislation Introduced

[tcon]

Copied from an NRA-ILA mailing I received today. Legislation has been introduced in my state Kentucky to allow permitless concealed-carry.

Kentucky: Permitless Carry Legislation

House Bill 531 was introduced by state Representatives Hubert Collins (D-97) and Jody Richards (D-20). HB 531 would allow a law-abiding individual, to lawfully carry a concealed handgun for self-defense without needing to first obtain a government-issued license.

This bipartisan legislation recognizes the right of Kentuckians to legally carry a concealed firearm without the requirement of acquiring a Kentucky concealed carry deadly weapons license (CCDW). HB 531 is a much-needed update to concealed carry in Kentucky, allowing law-abiding gun owners the ability to better protect themselves and their loved ones. This legislation would give Kentuckians the freedom to choose the best method of carrying for them, based on their attire, gender and/or physical attributes. HB 531 would also keep in place the current permitting system so that people who obtain a permit could still enjoy the reciprocity agreements that Kentucky has with other states.

[Retired LTC, USAR]

Will be interesting to see where this goes. I hope it passes.

[smokey]

I also hope it passes, but hope KY keeps issuing licenses due to the CCDW bypassing the background checks on purchases, and reciprocity with agreeing states.

[Bekeart]

I live in Kentucky and am waiting for my next CCDW permit to arrive.

My guess is there is a chance it might pass - since it IS and election year.

Even if it does not pass, it will give some who are running for election a way to convince some voters.

Pass - MAYBE Posturing by Politicians - YES!

Bekeart

[keith44spl]

I think maybe it could pass, as we have a new (R) Governor and the bill being introduced by two representatives from the other side of the aisle, it's a chance for all to come together and work a lit'l bipartisanship support across the board in this election year....By enlarge, the Kentucky Legislature is more pro-gun than less, at least during election cycles.

Also the CCDW Program is purty overwhelmed with applicants as it is...Open carry has been the law of the land since the beginning of the Commonwealth...It's not too awful far of a jump to 'permit less' carry by and for the lawbiding folks of the Bluegrass.


.

[mistermills357]

Good deal, I hope it passes.

[chief915]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.....

First off, let me say these things. I'm a firearm guy, I'm a constitution supporter, I'm not "afraid" of people owning or carrying firearms. I own several firearms of different brands and types, I am a CCDW license holder, and carry everywhere I go. I enjoy the hobby of firearms, I have a membership at a local range and I go shooting at least a couple times a month. Again, I don't have any issues with people owning or wanting to carry a weapon.

On the other hand, I feel like there should be some sort of check and balance in place that ensures people who want to carry weapons should be trained or at least verified that they have the basic knowledge necessary to safely CCDW (safe for both themselves and for everyone else). Things like safe practices (how to load/unload/make safe/keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, etc), weapon related laws (where you can legally carry, how to interact with LEO when CC, when can I legally shoot a person, what to do if you do have to shoot another person (call 911 immediately after the threat has stopped, wait for LEO to arrive, etc), how to properly hold/sight picture/reload/clear, etc. Some people know these things already, some don't.......

Yes, owning/possessing a weapon is a constitutional right, open carry is perfectly legal and I have no issues at all with that. I'm not talking about "keeping people from being able to get a gun"..... Criminals or "crazy people" will get a gun if they want one, regardless of what laws, procedures, or background checks are in place.

I'm just saying, as it currently stands, to get a CCDW license you must present a certificate from a CCDW class or proof of pistol training while you were in the military in order to receive a license. The intent of those documents is to prove that you have been instructed/trained/shown to be competent in basic knowledge and skills related to carrying/operating a firearm and hopefully some do's and don'ts related to owing/carrying/operating a firearm.

I also understand that current CCDW classes vary widely in quality. Some folks will argue that CCDW classes are nothing but another way for people to take their hard earned money. I've heard of classes that were very informative, each person received one on one help with their individual weapons handling/training, quality range time, etc. I've also heard of classes basically watching 6 hours of videos, shooting at a silhouette from 3 yards and receiving a certificate.

Any Thoughts?

[tcon]

I would like for everyone to receive basic firearm training. Even those who do not own guns. That's not going to happen.

When I first heard about the permit-less concealed carry discussion, I had to think about it for a bit. I came to the conclusion that the only difference between concealed carry and open carry is a t-shirt. Why are we requiring permits for untucked shirts and not requiring them when we tuck them in?

That's when it occurred to me that there's really no difference besides not advertising that you are armed.

[keith44spl]

Well, The Commonwealth of Kentucky has Constitutional Open Carry...

Why not Constitutional Carry? Whither it be openly or concealed.

I'm a CCDW Instructor and I don't see a problem with permit-less concealed carry....

Law abiding folks know more about their needs for self
protection that any one else would....including the Gov't.

Criminals carry firearms as part of their trade, firearm laws
and background checks don't effect them all that much.

Kentucky's CCDW License is a plus for reciprocity with other locals that one might venture into.

I look forward to this piece of legislation passing.


.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by chief915

I'm not sure how I feel about this.....

I also understand that current CCDW classes vary widely in quality. Some folks will argue that CCDW classes are nothing but another way for people to take their hard earned money. I've heard of classes that were very informative, each person received one on one help with their individual weapons handling/training, quality range time, etc. I've also heard of classes basically watching 6 hours of videos, shooting at a silhouette from 3 yards and receiving a certificate.

Any Thoughts?

Sir,

If the above statement is a fact.
Those instructors should be reported to the CCDW Program Compliance.

There has never been a six hour video produced by The Department of Criminal Justice Training
for the CCDW Program since the beginning of the Program.

The new curriculum that began Jan 1st,2016....
The DOCJT video is now about ninety minutes for
applicants, longer for Instructor/Trainers

Classroom instruction is a minimum of six hours (including a written test),
with an eight hour maximum class time, including range time, with 20 rounds fired un-aided at 21'.

If an instructor is conducting classes outside of the prescribed
curriculum of DOCJT, it can be a felony for the instructor and
a misdemeanor for an applicant in failing to report insufficient training.

It is taken very serious at DOCJT Compliance for these infractions.


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[chief915]

Originally Posted by tcon

I came to the conclusion that the only difference between concealed carry and open carry is a t-shirt. Why are we requiring permits for untucked shirts and not requiring them when we tuck them in?

Very good point

[StakeOut]

With carrying a gun there comes a great responsibility.The 2 are inseparable.

No requirement or training required to have a firearm in your pocket,waistband or handbag when out and about and possibly close to me gives me the shakes.

When at the range I thoroughly appraise the people to my left and right and try to access their competency and my safety.

[chief915]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

Well, The Commonwealth of Kentucky has Constitutional Open Carry...

Why not Constitutional Carry? Whither it be openly or concealed.

I'm a CCDW Instructor and I don't see a problem with permit-less concealed carry....

Law abiding folks know more about their needs for self
protection that any one else would....including the Gov't.

Criminals carry firearms as part of their trade, firearm laws
and background checks don't effect them all that much.

Kentucky's CCDW License is a plus for reciprocity with other locals that one might venture into.

I agree with each of your points! I will also submit that I may have made my statement in the wrong thread, because training needs to apply for carrying/handling a firearm in any fashion or situation, not just when it's concealed.

But, since we're here..... I would like to ask a few questions. I don't mean any of this disrespectfully and I hope that it isn't taken that way. But I think it may help illustrate my point about why I feel some sort of training program is necessary.

During your time as a CCDW instructor, how many students have you walked into your class who:

Didn't know how to "properly" load/unload/fire their weapon? In other words, they could kinda stumble through getting it empty, but it wasn't exactly done correctly?

How many were flat out dangerous with their weapon? They needed basic firearms safety training or it was just a matter of time before the were going to AD into themselves or someone else.

How many already knew they weren't allowed to carry a pistol in certain places even if they had a license? Did the majority of people know all of those places?

How many of your past students didn't know that you cannot "legally" shoot an burgler in the back as he runs away from your house before they attended your class?

How many of the students already knew what "Reciprocity" is?

What is the most frequently asked question from students during your training?


I would hope, as I'm sure you do, that every student who passed through your CCDW class learned at least 1 thing that they did not know before the class....... I suspect that most of your students learned a lot of things from the class. How many students do you think would have attended if it wasn't mandatory in order to get a CCDW? Would they still pay the same $ amount to do the exact same class just for the knowledge? Some will because they are responsible people and they know they need the knowledge and training. But i would wager that a fair majority of people won't bother with the class anymore if they don't "need it".

I think we can all agree, every one of us wants responsible and knowledgeable gun owners/carriers.

I've learned through life that if you always depend on people to do the right thing or the responsible thing........You're going to get disappointed more often than not. With today's society, that problem seems to be getting worse.

Just my thoughts

[chief915]

Originally Posted by StakeOut

With carrying a gun there comes a great responsibility.The 2 are inseparable.

No requirement or training required to have a firearm in your pocket,waistband or handbag when out and about and possibly close to me gives me the shakes.

When at the range I thoroughly appraise the people to my left and right and try to access their competency and my safety.

I agree completely.

Also, I may be "profiling", but when I see someone open carrying I often find myself wondering "I wonder if they're trained and responsible....do know what they're doing with that weapon, are they safe with it, or are they carrying it just because they can". When I see someone concealed carry, I tend to assume they are trained and responsible. I know that's not a cut and dried "one size fits all" for either group.....

[StakeOut]

If an untrained person shoots you by accident I will shake my head and say to myself "OMG ,that's terrible".

If an untrained person shoots me by accident that doesn't render me unresponsive they might never shoot someone else again.

I don't like being shot.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by chief915

I agree with each of your points! I will also submit that I may have made my statement in the wrong thread, because training needs to apply for carrying/handling a firearm in any fashion or situation, not just when it's concealed.

But, since we're here..... I would like to ask a few questions. I don't mean any of this disrespectfully and I hope that it isn't taken that way. But I think it may help illustrate my point about why I feel some sort of training program is necessary.

During your time as a CCDW instructor, how many students have you walked into your class who:

Didn't know how to "properly" load/unload/fire their weapon? In other words, they could kinda stumble through getting it empty, but it wasn't exactly done correctly?

How many were flat out dangerous with their weapon? They needed basic firearms safety training or it was just a matter of time before the were going to AD into themselves or someone else.

How many already knew they weren't allowed to carry a pistol in certain places even if they had a license? Did the majority of people know all of those places?

How many of your past students didn't know that you cannot "legally" shoot an burgler in the back as he runs away from your house before they attended your class?

How many of the students already knew what "Reciprocity" is?

What is the most frequently asked question from students during your training?


I would hope, as I'm sure you do, that every student who passed through your CCDW class learned at least 1 thing that they did not know before the class....... I suspect that most of your students learned a lot of things from the class. How many students do you think would have attended if it wasn't mandatory in order to get a CCDW? Would they still pay the same $ amount to do the exact same class just for the knowledge? Some will because they are responsible people and they know they need the knowledge and training. But i would wager that a fair majority of people won't bother with the class anymore if they don't "need it".

I think we can all agree, every one of us wants responsible and knowledgeable gun owners/carriers.

I've learned through life that if you always depend on people to do the right thing or the responsible thing........You're going to get disappointed more often than not. With today's society, that problem seems to be getting worse.

Just my thoughts

Sir,

I've been an Instructor for over a decade....In a very rural part of the state where folks were raised up with firearms in the home.
In this area, firearms are regarded as tools and or sporting arms for hunting and other types of recreational shooting.

There has been about one individual per class that had not operated or fired a handgun, some had experience with long guns. Those students with limited experience receive more one on one pre-range time as needed.

I firmly believe it is not what one knows before hand, it's the new knowledge that leave the student leaves the class with that measures my ability.

The DOCJT Video contains information pertaining to the statues on physical force and the use of deadly physical
force and the statues of mis-use of firearms....


The roll of the instructor is to teach safe and responsible firearm handling and storage.
As well as the care and cleaning of the handgun. How to safely load and un-load their handgun and the importance of muzzle discipline at all times.

All of my students can demonstrate all the above before we retire to the range for live fire qualifications.
I have never witnessed the reckless handing of a firearm on my line ever.

Most folks understand that other states recognize KY's CCDW License, even if they have never heard the word reciprocity.

The KY State Police website has a Q&A section that covers a lot of CCDW after the fact inquires.

What with over fifty some-odd years of firearm training (my father drilled/taught all us boys in firearm safety on a daily basis) I do enjoy passing a little of it along to others.

By and large, the folks that attend my classes have a better level of gun handling skills than some of the LEOs I've worked with over the years....

In closing, we all know it's not what's on someone's hip...It's what in their heart that counts.

I personally don't see a problem with permit-less carry in the Bluegrass.


.

[chief915]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

Sir,

I've been an Instructor for over a decade....In a very rural part of the state where folks were raised up with firearms in the home.
In this area, firearms are regarded as tools and or sporting arms for hunting and other types of recreational shooting.

There has been about one individual per class that had not operated or fired a handgun, some had experience with long guns. Those students with limited experience receive more one on one pre-range time as needed.

I firmly believe it is not what one knows before hand, it's the new knowledge that leave the student leaves the class with that measures my ability.

The DOCJT Video contains information pertaining to the statues on physical force and the use of deadly physical
force and the statues of mis-use of firearms....


The roll of the instructor is to teach safe and responsible firearm handling and storage.
As well as the care and cleaning of the handgun. How to safely load and un-load their handgun and the importance of muzzle discipline at all times.

All of my students can demonstrate all the above before we retire to the range for live fire qualifications.
I have never witnessed the reckless handing of a firearm on my line ever.

Most folks understand that other states recognize KY's CCDW License, even if they have never heard the word reciprocity.

The KY State Police website has a Q&A section that covers a lot of CCDW after the fact inquires.

What with over fifty some-odd years of firearm training (my father drilled/taught all us boys in firearm safety on a daily basis) I do enjoy passing a little of it along to others.

By and large, the folks that attend my classes have a better level of gun handling skills than some of the LEOs I've worked with over the years....

In closing, we all know it's not what's on someone's hip...It's what in their heart that counts.

I personally don't see a problem with permit-less carry in the Bluegrass.


.

Keith,

I agree with everything you said here, and it sounds like you're an excellent instructor. However, I feel like you're misunderstanding me. I'm not questioning the material you present in class or saying that the students aren't well trained when they "graduate". In fact, I'm saying the opposite, the students ARE better trained and know how to load/unload/fire, know the rules and laws of carrying, and are more responsible after attending the class than they otherwise were. Everything you stated in this post re-enforces my point.

But, I also feel that the majority of those students only attended the class because they were required to in order to get a CCDW license. How many would still pay the class fee and spend 8 hours in the class if it were not required by anyone? Everyone SHOULD and some people still may take the class voluntarily in order to learn about firearms and CCDW, it's a valuable class and like we both said, everyone learns something. But I would bet that many people will not voluntarily because 1) it won't be required of them, 2) they have to pay for it, 3) it takes a full day of their "free time", and 4) they don't know what they don't know.

Because of that (training no longer being mandatory), we will now have everyone who feels like sticking a pistol under their shirt and wandering through the mall doing so....... Some of them knowledgeable and responsible with firearms and some who simply aren't.

My concern is not that "big brother" won't be able to track CCDW folks or that I want more hoops for people to jump through...... My concern is that people will be missing out on good firearm training that they very likely will not seek on their own accord, and some of those people may very badly need the training in order to be safe to themselves and those within range of them. Again, everyone learns at least one thing in the class, while most learn a lot in the class.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by StakeOut

If an untrained person shoots you by accident I will shake my head and say to myself "OMG ,that's terrible".

If an untrained person shoots me by accident that doesn't render me unresponsive they might never shoot someone else again.

I don't like being shot.

Shirley ye jest.....To use deadly force in response to an accident?

As a Detective for the Commonwealth's Attorney's Office,
I'd say we would prosecute that all day long, everyday and
get a conviction everyday here in the High Courts of the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

I believe one would be more likely to be injured in a vehicle accident by a
poorly trained and or an un-licensed driver than a permit-less pistol packer.

As we go hurling ourselves down the highway with nothing more than a
painted line on the roadway separating us from
certain disaster by just feet and sometime mere inches...


That is all for today.....Jest keep those cards and letters folks, Thank you.


.

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by chief915

...
Yes, owning/possessing a weapon is a constitutional right, open carry is perfectly legal and I have no issues at all with that....

I have to agree with the comment that if OC without a permit is ok, so is CC. CC doesn't change the carrier's responsibilities.

[Kronos]

Here's a thing to keep in mind-at one time people didn't have to get a permit, training or such they just stuck a gun in their belt and went about their business,same with a knife.

That was back in the first part of this country, and even England back then and you don't read about mass killings or much nonsense in those times.

What's so different now? I know that myself you won't have a problem, and the same with 99% of gun owners but the fact we have so many willing to do harm to others around them is far more frightening then someone deciding they want to carry a pistol on any given day.

[keith44spl]

As discussed previously....

The general consensus is a little training beats no training at all.

Sometimes mandatory training to satisfy a state funded course is
designed for a successful out come, for said state treasury.

Sometimes mandated training is aliken to the public school systems,
and some, do get left behind.

As with any schooling, be it public or in the home, firearms are tools and the use of same is a skill.

As a child, my father schooled me in the safe handling, marksmanship, a foundation of respect for all arms.

The state trained me in the use of arms to defend myself while enforcing the state's statues.

The responsibility with the carrying and use of arms remain the same, no matter the level of training nor it's source.

As for in all things, 'Every tub must to stand on it's own bottom.'


.

[WVSig]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

As discussed previously....

The general consensus is a little training beats no training at all.

Sometimes mandatory training to satisfy a state funded course is
designed for a successful out come, for said state treasury.

Sometimes mandated training is aliken to the public school systems,
and some, do get left behind.

As with any schooling, be it public or in the home, firearms are tools and the use of same is a skill.

As a child, my father schooled me in the safe handling, marksmanship, a foundation of respect for all arms.

The state trained me in the use of arms to defend myself while enforcing the state's statues.

The responsibility with the carrying and use of arms remain the same, no matter the level of training nor it's source.

As for in all things, 'Every tub must to stand on it's own bottom.'


.

Having taken the KY class I can say that I believe that the course amounts to a tax on those within the commonwealth who want to carry a gun concealed.

The Video I watched was worthless. It was nothing more than Commonwealth Attorneys reading the statues. Maybe it would have been useful if I was illiterate but I could have read and understood the statues in about 1/10 of the time the video took.

The rest of the course was filler. I know how to clean my gun. I know how to load it and I know how to handle it safely. I can also put 20 rounds into pretty much the same hole at 7 yards. I could have taken the test without ever seeing the video or any of the other material presented to me in class.

Now I will admit I was a bit ahead of the curve but nothing in that class prepared someone to actually carry a gun. It did not make anyone a better shooter. It did not properly create a mindset that people need in order to safety carry IMHO. Every single student even those with almost no firearms experience had no problem passing the live fire part of the test. I could teach a person who has never fired a gun in their life to keep 20 rounds in a B-27 Target at 7 yards. I did it the other day with a friend and she was using a LCP Custom.

It was nothing more than a way for the state to collect money for the video and test materials and then more money when I actually applied for my permit. Typical KT tax. I hope this passes but I am doubtful that it will. The legislature in KY is still controlled by Democrats.

[CowboyKen]

Of course training is a good thing. BUT:

In about 20 states (including those that do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm), little or no training is required for one to legally carry a concealed firearm, more if we include open carry.

There is no difference in incidents in states that require training (with or without a demonstration of "prophecy") and those that don't. Training is a good thing but requiring it does not seem to improve overall public safety.

Ken

p.s.; And we've all seen the video of the DEA agent shooting himself in the foot!

[redlevel]

Originally Posted by chief915

Because of that (training no longer being mandatory), we will now have everyone who feels like sticking a pistol under their shirt . . . . . . . doing so

This is pretty much the way it has been here in GA
since Colonial days, except the gun was more likely
in a hip pocket or the bib of a pair of overalls,
depending on the size of the piece. I have never heard
of a rash of accidental shootings, or the streets running
with blood because of indiscriminate shooting by the
untrained masses.

The problem with government mandated training requirements
is that . . . . . . they are government mandated.
Pass the law and the current administration
might be fine. A future administration might use it
as a club to beat gun owners over the head.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by WVSig

I hope this passes but I am doubtful that it will. The legislature in KY is still controlled by Democrats.

The bill was introduced by two Dems and it's an election year...So,

As one legislator sed at the introduction of the concealed carry bill decades ago,
"We're just making it legal...What everyone is doing anyway."

The State saw the program as the cash cow that it was...

And now the DOCJT and KSP are have a time keeping up with the demand and
the financial burden of maintaining the whole deal.

From the inside, permit-less carry looks promising.


.

[tcon]

Hometown guy Bob Damron sponsored the state legislation that led to KY having a concealed-carry law in 1996. He was a State Rep. (D) at the time but has since changed to (R).

[CCWKY]

I wrote Senator Carroll an email asking for support of this legislation and received this response last week. I'm not very optimistic after reading his response