UPDATE - POST #34: Kentucky Concealed Carry Without a Permit?

[Watchdog]

Kentucky appears to be on the verge of becoming the latest state to approve permitless concealed carry.

S.B. 150 passed the Kentucky Senate by a vote of 29-8. It now goes to the House.

Interested forum members may read the text of the bill (unofficial copy) by clicking here.

Some news stories about the bill may be seen by clicking here and here.

It might be a good time for forum members who live in Kentucky to let your legislators know your thoughts on S.B. 150.

[Watchdog]

On February 27th, the Kentucky state House Judiciary Committee voted 12-8 to pass Senate Bill 150.

SB 150 will now go to the House floor for a full vote.

Rep. Jason Nemes of Louisville and seven others voted against moving the bill forward. Nemes's main objection to the bill seems to be the part that would no longer require gun owners/purchasers to get mandatory gun safety training.

The Louisville Metro Police Department has expressed its opposition to the bill.

Quoting from one news article:

"Kentucky requires people to get a permit before they can carry a concealed firearm in the commonwealth. To do that, they have to undergo a background check, complete some gun safety training and pay a $60 fee.

'These core public safety standards make us all safer, and SB 150 would erase them all,' said Connie Coartney, the Kentucky state chapter leader for Moms Demand Action, when she testified against the bill before the committee Wednesday.

Specifically, SB 150 would allow people who are at least 21 years old and meet other legal requirements for gun ownership to carry a concealed firearm without a permit."

I haven't seen a definite day/date when the bill might come up for the full vote. Also haven't seen any indication as to whether Governor Bevin would sign it or veto it.

[500SNW]

Good for them...my neighbors in KY. It is frustrating to me that my own home state of Ohio will probably take years (if ever) to pass Constitutional carry...whereas KY and IN, which are both about a 10 minute drive from me have already done so. Ohio has a higher population, higher taxes, more laws/stiffer penalties...and one of the highest prison populations in the nation. Ohio will also probably be one of the last states in the union to approve medical and/or recreational marijuana. Dunno why I keep living here.

[kimporter]

Living in ky i dont think it’s such a good idea,i think the lack of training in safety and the laws is gonna hurt this,and I’m hearing people talking about how they can go anywhere they want now (no they cant)and they cant cross state lines into states that recognize our cc license,which they seem to think they can,

[coachray]

Originally Posted by kimporter

Living in ky i dont think it’s such a good idea,i think the lack of training in safety and the laws is gonna hurt this,and I’m hearing people talking about how they can go anywhere they want now (no they cant)and they cant cross state lines into states that recognize our cc license,which they seem to think they can,

That's a good point. I'm a certified NRA range safety officer and I can tell you that I've had new shooters that have been rather dangerous in handling their guns. My thinking was that I was glad this person wasn't walking around carrying a gun.

[500SNW]

Originally Posted by kimporter

Living in ky i dont think it’s such a good idea,i think the lack of training in safety and the laws is gonna hurt this,and I’m hearing people talking about how they can go anywhere they want now (no they cant)and they cant cross state lines into states that recognize our cc license,which they seem to think they can,

Safety might be an issue...but then again I think most of us know that an 8 or 12 hour concealed carry course cannot instill safe gun handling in many people. There's no substitute for having Dad continually drill you on gun safety throughout your childhood. A number of police officers and even DEA/FBI Agents, who have had firearms training well beyond anything an abbreviated concealed carry course offers....have shot themselves in the foot and, even worse, fellow officers and other bystanders.

[zogger]

Originally Posted by kimporter

Living in ky i dont think it’s such a good idea,i think the lack of training in safety and the laws is gonna hurt this,and I’m hearing people talking about how they can go anywhere they want now (no they cant)and they cant cross state lines into states that recognize our cc license,which they seem to think they can,

I agree a person should get some training BUT I am firmly against making it a requirement for CC. Too many opportunities for legislatures or bureaucrats to make it hard to take or pay for a required course as a means to hinder CC. Even requiring the NRA Basic pistol puts a burden on the CC.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by zogger52

I agree a person should get some training BUT I am firmly against making it a requirement for CC. Too many opportunities for legislatures or bureaucrats to make it hard to take or pay for a required course as a means to hinder CC. Even requiring the NRA Basic pistol puts a burden on the CC.

I wasn't going to comment in this thread, other than to post info and updates, but I have to ask...what sort of "burden" are we talking about here?

Plus, Kentuckians want Constitutional carry, okay? Suppose legislators want to stick a safety class requirement back into the bill in order to get it the rest of the way through the legislature and on the governor's desk. Are Kentucky gun owners going to say, no, we won't accept that, and just let the whole Constitutional carry bill get thrown out...thereby leaving them with nothing? I'd certainly hope not.

Which would a sensible gun owner choose...Constitutional carry with a safety course, or no Constitutional carry at all? If I lived in Kentucky, I know which one I'd pick.

[keith44spl]

The Bluegrass has 'Constitutional' open carry.....with very few restrictions.

The Kentucky CCDW (conceal carry deadly weapons) licences covers more
than just firearms.
There is always push back from the libs in the metro areas...it's their job to that.

As of right now the firearms safety training (handguns only) is a
prerequisite for the application for a CCDW lic. is set by the DOCJT at $75.00.
A five year licences is set at sixty dollars and is issued by the Kentucky State Police.

As it stands now, to conceal carry a weapon in the Commonwealth one must have
a current licence issued by the state or another state that Kentucky has reciprocity with.

This new legislation would relieve the financial burden of folks living on a fixed income
and would not require a judge's order to bypass the training requirement in cases of
DVOs and EPOs, for said victims to lawfully carry a weapon concealed.

If this Constitutional Carry bill is signed in to law, it will just
apply to Kentucky residents.

I believe most folks that now have a CCDW license will keep it, it's purty handy for firearm purchases
and when traveling out of the Commonwealth, to states that have share conceal carry reciprocity.

I don't look for it to pass.....what with all the crazy amendments hung on it.


* I just recently retired as a firearms instructor for the
Commonwealth's Department of Criminal Justice Training (DOCJT)

.

[crazyphil]

Idaho law, effective July 1, 2016, recognized the right of
law-abiding Idaho residents who are 21 years of age or older,
with provisions also for those 18 to 21, to carry a concealed
weapons in the cities without a permit. They already had the
right to open carry.

The standard and the enhanced licenses are still available for those
who want or need them. Of course training and fees are involved.

The 2016 change allowed me to retire from instructing both the
standard and enhanced license classes. It was time anyway.

[ACORN]

The problem I see with requiring “safety” course is what’s to stop them from requiring that you demonstrate a certain level of proficiency with a handgun? In the name of safety of course. Then increasing the requirements again in the name of safety until virtually no one can get a CCL. Your 90 year old granny may not be able to keep 10 shots on paper but could darn well be able to defend herself up close and personal.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

The Bluegrass has 'Constitutional' open carry.....with very few restrictions.

As of right now the firearms safety training (handguns only) is a
prerequisite for the application for a CCDW lic. is set by the DOCJT at $75.00.
A five year licences is set at sixty dollars and is issued by the Kentucky State Police.

I was hoping someone from Kentucky would weigh in on this in greater detail. Looking at the prices for the CCDW and the $60 charge for a five year license, as a former LEO, you know no one's going to work for free, right? Someone's gotta pay the people who process all this paperwork, the fingerprint people, the printing people, etc., etc. Not arguing with you...just saying that nothing's free in this ol' world these days.

Regarding the $60/5-year license, that works out to about a dollar a month. I don't see that as a financial hardship or any sort of a burden. Most folks spend more than $60 a week for groceries.

Originally Posted by keith44spl

This new legislation would relieve the financial burden of folks living on a fixed income
and would not require a judge's order to bypass the training requirement in cases of
DVOs and EPOs, for said victims to lawfully carry a weapon concealed.

I think this thing of a "fixed income" needs some clarification.

Say you're an employee on salary, not an hourly wage. Or a retiree. You make x-thousands of dollars a year and that's it. No more, no less. You get no overtime, no holiday pay. If you work a day off, you don't get paid for it because your salary is set. You're on a "fixed income". As a retiree, I'm on a fixed income (unless I get a part-time job or something). Uncle Sam's not gonna give me any more money per month, unless it's through a COLA.

I agree that as American citizens, we shouldn't have to pay for the right to carry a gun, okay? There shouldn't be a price on Constitutional rights. But we do, and that isn't gonna change anytime soon. So...the "fixed income". If someone can afford x-hundreds of dollars for a gun, then they can afford to pay for the appropriate licensing requirements set by a state.

Frankly, if I have to pay for a concealed carry license, then so be it. It's better than someone telling me I can't carry.

Originally Posted by keith44spl

I don't look for it to pass.....what with all the crazy amendments hung on it.

There seems to be a fairly high level of confidence that it will pass. I'm not familiar with the amendments...do you have some information about them? I don't live in Kentucky, so I'll admit I'm not knowledgeable about everything concerning this bill.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Watchdog

I think this thing of a "fixed income" needs some clarification.

I've been on a fixed income since about 1992, not counting the side hustles, but I sure went to work every day until late 2015 . . .

Originally Posted by keith44spl

If this Constitutional Carry bill is signed in to law, it will just
apply to Kentucky residents.

Then it's not really Constitutional Carry. It's Commonwealth Carry . . .

[keith44spl]

Watchdog,

What with the $75.00 training fee plus the $60.00 licences fee = $135.00.

The only upside is the training fee of $75.00 is a one time fee.
the $60 licences fee is recurring every five years.

As a CCDW instructor (retired 1/1/19) a lot of folks said they couldn't fit it in their budget.
If both husband and wife apply and obtain a license, that $ 150.00 up front for the safety course,
and the additional $120.00 for both licenses. For a total of $270.00 and a recurring $120.00 every five years.
A number of retired folks do not want to lay out the amount of cash, when it is needed for other necessary expenses.

In the Commonwealth, one can carry a firearm in their vehicle without a permit of any kind.
When stored in any compartment original to the vehicle's manufacture, or in plain view.
A lot of folks choose to just do that.


SB 150 if passed as amended by the House is purty useless. IMO

Read all about in it's entirety;

19RS SB 150

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Amendments in part.....By the Clowns in the House,

Rep. M. Marzian, Rep. M. Cantrell and Rep. J. Donohue are kinda the three stooges of the House.



Amendment House Floor Amendment 8
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 213.046 to require that a handgun be provided to each parent and child upon the registry and certification of a live birth.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 9
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 402.100 to require that county clerks provide handguns to each party named on any application for a marriage license.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 10
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 199.570 to require the Cabinet for Health and Family Services to provide a handgun to each adoptive parent and the adopted child when a new birth certificate is issued.


Amendment House Floor Amendment 12
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 186.490 to require that handguns be provided to any person acquiring a commercial driver's license or an operator's license.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 13
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Create a new section of KRS Chapter 335B to require that a handgun be provided to each person who is granted a professional license from the state.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 14
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 382.110 to require county clerks to provide handguns to each signatory to a recorded mortgage or deed.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 16
Sponsor M. Cantrell
Summary Amend to require persons who carry concealed deadly weapons without a license to obtain liability insurance in the amount of $500,000.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 19
Sponsor J. Donohue
Summary Amend to limit a person carrying a concealed firearm to a single cartridge of ammunition, and require people who violate that provision to attend a firearms safety course.


.

[stansdds]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

Watchdog,

What with the $75.00 training fee plus the $60.00 licences fee = $135.00.

The only upside is the training fee of $75.00 is a one time fee.
the $60 licences fee is recurring every five years.

As a CCDW instructor (retired 1/1/19) a lot of folks said they couldn't fit it in their budget.
If both husband and wife apply and obtain a license, that $ 150.00 up front for the safety course,
and the additional $120.00 for both licenses. For a total of $270.00 and a recurring $120.00 every five years.
A number of retired folks do not want to lay out the amount of cash, when it is needed for other necessary expenses.

In the Commonwealth, one can carry a firearm in their vehicle without a permit of any kind.
When stored in any compartment original to the vehicle's manufacture, or in plain view.
A lot of folks choose to just do that.


SB 150 if passed as amended by the House is purty useless. IMO

Read all about in it's entirety;

19RS SB 150

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Amendments in part.....By the Clowns in the House,

Rep. M. Marzian, Rep. M. Cantrell and Rep. J. Donohue are kinda the three stooges of the House.



Amendment House Floor Amendment 8
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 213.046 to require that a handgun be provided to each parent and child upon the registry and certification of a live birth.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 9
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 402.100 to require that county clerks provide handguns to each party named on any application for a marriage license.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 10
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 199.570 to require the Cabinet for Health and Family Services to provide a handgun to each adoptive parent and the adopted child when a new birth certificate is issued.


Amendment House Floor Amendment 12
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 186.490 to require that handguns be provided to any person acquiring a commercial driver's license or an operator's license.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 13
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Create a new section of KRS Chapter 335B to require that a handgun be provided to each person who is granted a professional license from the state.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 14
Sponsor M. Marzian
Summary Amend KRS 382.110 to require county clerks to provide handguns to each signatory to a recorded mortgage or deed.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 16
Sponsor M. Cantrell
Summary Amend to require persons who carry concealed deadly weapons without a license to obtain liability insurance in the amount of $500,000.

Amendment House Floor Amendment 19
Sponsor J. Donohue
Summary Amend to limit a person carrying a concealed firearm to a single cartridge of ammunition, and require people who violate that provision to attend a firearms safety course.


.

Yep, those amendments were definitely the construct of three stooges. I can't see that being passed by any legislature, much less signed by any governor.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

Amendments in part...

I see what you mean about the "crazy amendments".

I also understand what you're saying about the fees, singular or combined for a married couple. I reckon we just look at it differently, because I don't see $60, or even $120 every five years as a hardship. I'll admit that the hardship quotient is dependent on a retiree's monthly net income, okay?

Regarding the safety training fees, is that a concrete price set by the Commonwealth, or can it vary among instructors? Reason I ask is because around here, I've seen the classes for as high as $120 per person to as low as $40 per person. And the instructors for all of them are accredited by the state. Long as you take the class, the state doesn't care what you paid for it...it's basically a standardized course.

[Watchdog]

"Amendment House Floor Amendment 19

Sponsor J. Donohue

Summary Amend to limit a person carrying a concealed firearm to a single cartridge of ammunition, and require people who violate that provision to attend a firearms safety course."

That's called the Barney Fife Amendment, ain't it?

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by Watchdog

I see what you mean about the "crazy amendments".

I also understand what you're saying about the fees, singular or combined for a married couple. I reckon we just look at it differently, because I don't see $60, or even $120 every five years as a hardship. I'll admit that the hardship quotient is dependent on a retiree's monthly net income, okay?

Regarding the safety training fees, is that a concrete price set by the Commonwealth, or can it vary among instructors? Reason I ask is because around here, I've seen the classes for as high as $120 per person to as low as $40 per person. And the instructors for all of them are accredited by the state. Long as you take the class, the state doesn't care what you paid for it...it's basically a standardized course.

.
The handgun safety course fee is set by the State at 75.00.
And yes, some instructors do adjust the fee by reducing their
portion of said fee.

I have waived my instructor's fee for wives of LEOs and others
that are on a fixed income.
But, that was at my soul discretion and not the SOP of the department.

There is a set $ amount for each applicant's application submitted to the
department (DOCJT) that must be remitted without exception.

I have also waived my range/instructor fee to LEOs for annual LEOSA qualifications.

In all reality, the safety course is an open book 25 multi-able choice written
test / range is 7 yards on a B-21....11 out of 21 in the black passes.

I have never had a applicant fail the course....The department
designed the course for all that can pass will pass.

The license fee is set by the State Police.

.

[Old TexMex]

Mary Lou Marzian is....well, one of “those”.
Not hard to figure out why she authored those additions.

[keith44spl]

It is truly sad that a few of the representatives of the Kentucky House
are so disrespectful of legislation passing through is halls....

Their mockery is shameful, to say the very least. Those that wish to make lite
of our system of implementing statutes that govern the Commonwealth,
are an embarrassment unto themselves and to the constituents which they were elected to serve,
and to all the citizens within the Commonwealth of Kentucky.



.

[kimporter]

I think they put those in hoping that our gov would not sign,but it’s sitting on his desk waiting for his John Hancock and he said he would sign soooooooo,will see on monday

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by kimporter

I think they put those in hoping that our gov would not sign,but it’s sitting on his desk waiting for his John Hancock and he said he would sign soooooooo,will see on monday

Your correct, it's headed to the gov office.

I didn't find what amendments were kept in and which were removed....But, upon a closer look,
shows all that foolishness was defeated, filed or not germane to the bill.

But, it is in the Governor Matt Bevin's hands now.

Just hope it is something that will benefits us common folks.



Commonwealth of Kentucky
House of Representatives 2019 Regular Session

SB 150 AN ACT relating to carrying concealed weapons. RCS# 196
3/1/2019
2:37:31 PM

YEAS: 60
NAYS: 37
ABSTAINED: 0
NOT VOTING: 3

YEAS : 60

Vote History

https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/reco...te_history.pdf

.

[pasound]

Good to see that some sort of paperless CC is coming to my neighbor state. WV has had open carry for years, and CC w/o a permit since last year (two years? It is 2019...). I would still have to pay for a WV permit to conceal carry to KY - reciprocity both ways.

Oh, and crazy legislature bills? This WV term has a CC on college campuses bill with an amendment that doesn't allow the owner to keep their gun in their dorm room.

[Watchdog]

[keith44spl]

I really didn't think this bill would make it out of the House....
Glad I was wrong.

*
Gov. Matt Bevin (R) made clear Friday he will sign legislation to eliminate Kentucky’s requirement that residents get a permit from the state before carrying a gun concealed for self-defense.

WYMT/AP/WKYT quoted Bevin describing the bill as classic “constitutional carry” legislation. He stressed that the legislation is an affirmation of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

The text of the legislation is straightforward: “Persons aged twenty-one (21) or older, and otherwise lawfully able to possess a firearm, may carry concealed firearms or other concealed deadly weapons without a license in the same locations as persons with valid licenses.”

Once Bevin signs the bill, Kentucky will be the sixteenth permitless carry state. The other 15 states are Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, West Virginia, Wyoming, and Vermont.

[Watchdog]

In a news report released just this morning, Governor Matt Bevin states that he will sign this bill into law.

Read all about it by clicking here.

EDIT: And, if interested forum members wish to read a thoroughly vicious, over-the-top-anti-gun-rant-disguised-as-a-news-story written by Joe Gerth of the Louisville Courier Journal, click here. I can't believe this writer ends his report by wishing gun owners become victims of an accidental discharge.

Warning! This article broke the needle on my Gag-O-Meter.

[keith44spl]

Governor Bevin Says He'll Sign Permit Less Carry Bill | WVXU

"Governor Matt Bevin says he is prepared to sign Senate Bill 150 into law. The legislation, easily adopted in each house of the legislature, allows Kentuckians 21 and older to carry concealed deadly weapons without a license in areas currently allowed for permit holders.
Bevin said Tuesday he’s supported permit less carry for some time.

“Heck I’ve been an advocate for this since long before it ever made its way through the legislature. It will be signed and I’m sure it will be signed here in the rotunda and I’m sure it will be done to great celebration of many in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. This is very uniformly popular among Democrats and Republicans alike,” said Bevin.

Bevin says it’s not surprising some Kentuckians disagree with the legislation. He called that the, quote, “nature of politics”, adding “the vast majority of people want to see this and they will get it.” The bill was delivered to his desk Monday."

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by Watchdog

EDIT: And, if interested forum members wish to read a thoroughly vicious, over-the-top-anti-gun-rant-disguised-as-a-news-story written by Joe Gerth of the Louisville Courier Journal, click here. I can't believe this writer ends his report by wishing gun owners become victims of an accidental discharge.

Warning! This article broke the needle on my Gag-O-Meter.

Watchdog,
Thanks for the link to ol' crazy Joseph Gerth, the newspaper hack....
I believe he's the one that said there would be blood in the streets when KY first passed Concealed Carry....
He's just one of those chicken lit'l nits.

The FOP opposed the new legislation on the grounds of officer safety...
KY statutes have been in last decade or so, are non announce and a firearm(s) can be carried in one's vehicle
(any compartment standard to the vehicle) without a permit or training, not to mention open carry.
The FOP's leadership is on the wrong side of this...Really the FOP should stay out of politics.

The KSP cut ties with the FOP years ago over some political meddling.

So, it's just a few nay-sayers that always oppose any and all gun friendly legislation.

This time it's mostly gun shops that have instructors that hold CCDW classes that is crying...

They are on the losing end, at fifty bucks a pop per applicant.

I sure glad for the folks of the Commonwealth that the Governor has promised to sign it into law.


.

[stansdds]

We heard the same message before Virginia became a "shall issue" state. Allow citizens to carry concealed and the streets will be red with all the flowing blood. Of course, that did not happen. Crime actually dropped.

[Muss Muggins]

Unfortunately, this FedEx delivery driver would disagree. Say what you will, but most reasonable people can make a legitimate argument that but for Missouri's concealed carry law, Mr. Thomlison would not have been carrying a pistol, and Mr. Walker would not be facing life in a wheelchair. Whether or not this was a legitimate use of force I will leave to the courts to decide, but you cannot argue my premise . . .

Amazon driver shot in St. Charles by man accused of being angry over handicapped parking spot | Law and order | stltoday.com

Originally Posted by stansdds

We heard the same message before Virginia became a "shall issue" state. Allow citizens to carry concealed and the streets will be red with all the flowing blood. Of course, that did not happen. Crime actually dropped.

[Retired LTC, USAR]

So the bill has passed and has been sent to the Governor for his signature.

[GaryS]

A single instance proves nothing either way. Or, take the number of concealed carry permit holders who commit crimes and divide that by the total number of concealed permit holders. That will give you and idea of how much crime concealed carry permit holders commit.

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Unfortunately, this FedEx delivery driver would disagree. Say what you will, but most reasonable people can make a legitimate argument that but for Missouri's concealed carry law, Mr. Thomlison would not have been carrying a pistol, and Mr. Walker would not be facing life in a wheelchair. Whether or not this was a legitimate use of force I will leave to the courts to decide, but you cannot argue my premise . . .

Amazon driver shot in St. Charles by man accused of being angry over handicapped parking spot | Law and order | stltoday.com

[Muss Muggins]

The issue is that reasonable gun owners do what you describe. Everybody else doesn’t. I tell this to my 79 year old mother almost every day. “You can’t take your thoughts on this and extrapolate them to everybody else, even if you’re 100% correct. People don’t think like you do . . . “

Originally Posted by GaryS

A single instance proves nothing either way. Or, take the number of concealed carry permit holders who commit crimes and divide that by the total number of concealed permit holders. That will give you and idea of how much crime concealed carry permit holders commit.

[Watchdog]

Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin signed the bill into law on Monday, March 11, 2019.

Kentuckians can now carry concealed without a permit. Some restrictions do apply, but all in all, it's a victory for Second Amendment supporters, gun owners, and sportsmen throughout the state.

The law becomes effective in July of this year.

Read about it here. And here.

[DrDoctor]

I didn’t know whether to put this topic in this forum, or in the Concealed Carry – Self-Defense forum. So, I made a SWAG (right or wrong), and placed it the Concealed Carry – Self-Defense forum. If I placed this topic in the wrong forum, I trust those in charge will overlook my transgression, and move it to the appropriate forum on my behalf. Thx.