FedEx and UPS in collusion with BATF?

[coltle6920]

I'm not great with words and have a tendency to scan over articles so you might want to search this for yourselves.

From an article in the Epoch Times...

Montana Attorney General Austin Knudsen, together with 17 other state attorneys general, has demanded that shipping companies UPS and FedEx explain their newly implemented policies to track and record Americans’ firearms purchases, and disclose whether these policies have been coordinated with this administration.

It seems to me this policy suggests an attempt at a National Registry. This smells like a backdoor attempt to circumvent the law and probably set us up for something worse down the road.

[reddog81]

Track and record firearm purchases? Generally can’t purchase a firearm and have it shipped to you via fedex or UPS. I purchased a CMP Garand and had it shipped via FedEx but other than that all guns are sent to FFL.

[johngalt]

Sounds like the article is confusing fedex/ups with credit cards, plus some tin foil.

[s&wchad]

link to article:
Attorney General Knudsen leads 18-state effort calling on UPS and FedEx to clarify gun-purchase tracking polices - Montana Department of Justice

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by reddog81

Track and record firearm purchases? Generally can’t purchase a firearm and have it shipped to you via fedex or UPS. I purchased a CMP Garand and had it shipped via FedEx but other than that all guns are sent to FFL.

However, firearms sent in for warranty work or gunsmith work would fall under this category.

[glenwolde]

Maybe I don't get it, but it would seem (with a few narrow exceptions) they are mostly going to end up with a list of FFLs.

[Rodan]

The ATF already has a defacto 'registry' as they have been digitizing 4473s for years, even though they were caught at it and deny it.

As far as shippers, every gun I've had shipped to an FFL had my name (and the FFL's) on the shipping label...

[colt_saa]

How can this be a "National Registry" when a couple of service providers are making a list?

To be a "National Registry" would there not need to be some mechanism to get this information from FedEx and UPS to the National Government?

Would there also not be a need to have a penalty for if these companies failed to comply with passing the information on?

If this is a "National Registry" how is the Government getting the serial number of what was shipped?

I know of no law that forbids FedEx and UPS from keeping notes on what you claim to be shipping

[IronSkillet]

My understanding was after completing the 4473 (paper copy)it was retained by the FFL and only forward to the BATF if the license holder for whatever reason stopped being active? Over the years I have completed the form on a computer at some bigger business, this I assumed was stored in a cloud safely never to be hacked.

Originally Posted by Rodan

The ATF already has a defacto 'registry' as they have been digitizing 4473s for years, even though they were caught at it and deny it.

As far as shippers, every gun I've had shipped to an FFL had my name (and the FFL's) on the shipping label...

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by Rodan

The ATF already has a defacto 'registry' as they have been digitizing 4473s for years, even though they were caught at it and deny it.

As far as shippers, every gun I've had shipped to an FFL had my name (and the FFL's) on the shipping label...

And I'm sure all those NICS records were deleted...

At most, fedex/ups could compile a list of names+addresses. No models or serial numbers. The ATF already has all of that.

[Telecaster]

Epoch Times is, to me, a disinformation site. Just because it appears to be "on our side" doesn't mean it is. I could be wrong, though.

I thought the shippers were just trying to avoid having guns in their care stolen.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by IronSkillet

My understanding was after completing the 4473 (paper copy)it was retained by the FFL and only forward to the BATF if the license holder for whatever reason stopped being active? Over the years I have completed the form on a computer at some bigger business, this I assumed was stored in a cloud safely never to be hacked.

They changed the rules so that all FFLs have to retain 4473s forever, and those records go to ATF when the FFL relinquishes their license. They have been digitizing those records. Also, compliance agents have been caught taking digital photos of 4473s on site at FFLs during compliance checks.

[IronSkillet]

....makes me wonder, when reading the sales forum, how
"you're FFL must accept from a individual", is a thing anymore.

[BrovoEchoSierra]

I don't doubt this or any of the other comments above.
On the other hand, it dont surprise me, as ATF and other agencies are a rouge group that do what ever they want any more.
I dont like it, as it violates our freedoms, and the law, but after saying that, I would also say that most gun exchanges these days go through an FFL anyway, so UPS and Fedex reporting is a waste of time for them.
I know there are face to face sales, in some states, and the same at some shows. The shows that I have attended the last few years, are largely dealers collecting paperwork, on sales. Not much person to person trading, at least where I attend shows.

[dockmurgw]

Originally Posted by Telecaster

I thought the shippers were just trying to avoid having guns in their care stolen.

SHHHH...please don't say that my Reynolds Wrap stock is going through the roof.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Rodan

They changed the rules so that all FFLs have to retain 4473s forever, and those records go to ATF when the FFL relinquishes their license.

That is not what my 4473s say.

Latest 4473:


Instructions on the latest 4473.
NOTE that "may" and "must" are two different words with very different meanings.

[Paul in Nevada]

Doesn't anyone read articles before commenting?

Reports from Montana federal firearm license (FFL) holders made to Attorney General Knudsen’s office indicate that UPS and FedEx are now burdening them by requiring them to ship separately and track firearms, firearms parts, and firearm products so gun purchases can be tracked and retain documents about what specific items those shipments contain and make that information available to the companies upon request.

So it's not just guns but gun parts. The carriers might be tattling on you to Federal LE without a warrant.

[Camster]

Originally Posted by IronSkillet

....makes me wonder, when reading the sales forum, how
"you're FFL mush accept from a individual", is a thing anymore.

I always pass on those sellers.
If you don't want to be bothered to process it through your lgs, you apparently don't want to sell the gun that much. Same goes for not wanting to incur the FFL fee. Either go with the program and adsorb it as many of us do, increase your price to cover the fee, or keep being a rigid unaccommodating person who wants everything his way, and keep the dang thing. I also perceive those types of sellers as individuals who would give you a hard time if you wanted to exercise your right of refusal. At a minimum, they would balk at incurring the FFL fee at their lgs.
My lgs would rather not accept guns from individuals. Clearly stated on his website. I agree with him.
Currently, I think he wants extra if one does come in that way.
Too many times in the past, a gun would show up with no idea of who sent it, or who it was intended for. He then had a limbo gun that he couldn't log in, and had to wait for some customer to inquire if a gun came in for him.

[LPD256]

An FFL is not super hard to obtain, but it would be pretty easy to lose. I work at one part time. We got a gun trace call from the ATF yesterday. Because we are sticklers on certain paperwork and following the rules, it was easy to tell them where the gun came from and who we transferred it to. That call is not a good time to say “I don’t know”

[coltle6920]

Originally Posted by Paul in Nevada

Doesn't anyone read articles before commenting?

So it's not just guns but gun parts. The carriers might be tattling on you to Federal LE without a warrant.

Thank you,Paul. That's why I posted the aricle. The idea of obtaining ANY info from outsiders on our purchases relating to firearms without due cause is unconstitutional and illegal.

A lot of cellphone providers refused to comply with the Feds for the same reasons.

[Drm50]

There has been pressure put on Banks, Insurance Cos and shipping by a group of Senators. Whether some kind of extortion or Quid Pro Quo is yet to be determined.
Restrictions on legal commerce should be a criminal act. What can’t be passed as law in Congress should not be regulated by a few people of power or wealth.
CEO who decide to do such extra legal restrictions should be held liable by the stock holders. Playing politics cost money.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by handejector

That is not what my 4473s say.

ATF rule Aug 2022

NPRM Regulatory Impact Analysis

[IronSkillet]

Businesses know customers want real time information on the whereabouts of their stuff. Unfortunately sometimes technology may not be our best friend. This update seems innocent enough but combined with the other 63 parts & ammo packages received recently would it put me on the naughty list for some alphabet tracking agency? If something is purchased electronically with a credit card and then tracked from shipper to receiver is it considered a circumstantial chain of custody?

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Rodan

ATF rule Aug 2022

NPRM Regulatory Impact Analysis

You were correct!
I apparently failed to read a newsletter.


from the final ruling:

16. Amend § 478.129 by revising paragraphs (b), (d) and (e) to read as follows:


§ 478.129
Record retention.
* * * * *
(b) Firearms Transaction Record. Licensees shall retain each Form 4473 until business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper, or in an electronic alternate method approved by the Director, at the business premises readily accessible for inspection under this part. Paper forms over 20 years of age may be stored at a separate warehouse, which shall be considered part of the business premises for this purpose and subject to inspection under this part. Forms 4473 shall be retained in the licensee's records as provided in § 478.124(b), provided that Forms 4473 with respect to which a sale, delivery, or transfer did not take place shall be separately retained in alphabetical (by name of transferee) or chronological (by date of transferee's certification) order.

I guess I'll have to cancel the bonfire I had planned for a few years down the road.

[biku324]

I hear 'they' know about my Silverado!

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Camster

………
Too many times in the past, a gun would show up with no idea of who sent it, or who it was intended for. He then had a limbo gun that he couldn't log in, and had to wait for some customer to inquire if a gun came in for him.

Happened to me a few times. Gun shipped via USPS flat rate with nothing in the box but a gun. No padding either.
I went to the shop after a few days of no contact.
My FFL was pretty calm though, as he waited on me to acquire the sellers ID.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by handejector

You were correct!
I apparently failed to read a newsletter.

Ignorance of the law not being an excuse had it's foundation when laws prohibited actions that are malum in se.

These days all of us are certainly ignorant of some malum prohibitum transgession, because keeping up with rules is more than a full time job!

[LVSteve]

Having dealt with .gov when electronic data was involved, I doubt the ATF could decipher half of what they receive from outside their organization inside our lifetimes.

[tmd17]

Originally Posted by IronSkillet

... stored in a cloud safely never to be hacked.

uhhmmmm.....

[coltle6920]

Thank God the ATF wasn't around during the Revolutionary War.

I don't like tea and biscuits are for dogs.

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by coltle6920

Thank God the ATF wasn't around during the Revolutionary War.

I don't like tea and biscuits are for dogs.

A version was around, but was enforced by England. Part of the reason we kicked them out.

[Turq]

There is no "collusion". It's not the shippers...it's who is pressuring/threatening the shippers. The last thing they want is more regulations to follow or paperwork to generate. It's just like shipping alcohol or haz mats. It's the feds who are requiring the shipping companies with the threat of big fines for non compliance.

[Paul in Nevada]

Originally Posted by Turq

There is no "collusion"..

I see you haven't heard of "ESG" investing.