our own worst enemy

[AlHunt]

Originally Posted by dockmurgw

The people I would compromise with would look at it as just a step in what they consider the right direction, they will not look at it as a compromise and move on.

Yep, our compromise is just another brick in their wall of civilian disarmament.

The Pink Floyd model of getting your own way.

[BE Mike]

Originally Posted by AlHunt

Yep, our compromise is just another brick in their wall of civilian disarmament.

The Pink Floyd model of getting your own way.

This is the problem from the initial post. The OP didn't thoroughly identify the opposition. Those that oppose the Second Amendment want to eliminate it as an individual right. They will chip away because they know that they can't reach their final goal in one big step. Our only defense is not to appease them, but stand firm against them at all turns. They are already winning over the hearts and minds of our children and grandchildren.

[fordson]

“…….They are already winning over the hearts and minds of our children and grandchildren.”

That is the point, isn’t it……..

Compromise is really a second tier issues. Voters perceptions of the 2A and therefore “gun ownership” will determine how they vote which in turn, will affect the future of the gun-rights movement. The only reason we have these debates is due to the number of opposition politicians elected into office by the voting public. Change the minds of the voting public and you change the voting pattern and the political landscape. And to do that, we may need a new and different strategy.

[John Patrick]

Originally Posted by fordson

“…….They are already winning over the hearts and minds of our children and grandchildren.”

That is the point, isn’t it……..

Compromise is really a second tier issues. Voters perceptions of the 2A and therefore “gun ownership” will determine how they vote which in turn, will affect the future of the gun-rights movement. The only reason we have these debates is due to the number of opposition politicians elected into office by the voting public. Change the minds of the voting public and you change the voting pattern and the political landscape. And to do that, we may need a new and different strategy.

While 2A (and the Constitution generally) might be the single issue or a priority issue for some of us, a whole lot of voters on the other end of the political spectrum vote for reasons wholly unrelated, like more “free” benefits, student loan forgiveness, abortion, illegal immigration “reform.” The great majority of politicians espousing those policies are also anti freedom and anti 2A in particular. And therein lays the problem.

[crc4]

We need to strangle the progressive idea of democracy (socialism/communism), toss it into the pit of hell, and restore the American Constitutional Republic.

Progressives can not command me to commit suicide. I have a natural right to protect myself and my family against their intentions by using force if necessary.

The time is not far away when people will begin an open rebellion against the crimes of progressive compulsions.

It is, and has always been, the 2nd Amendment that is the guarantor of all the other Amendments. Without the 2nd Amendment, America is a totalitarian country like Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and Communist China.

[fordson]

Originally Posted by John Patrick

While 2A (and the Constitution generally) might be the single issue or a priority issue for some of us, a whole lot of voters on the other end of the political spectrum vote for reasons wholly unrelated, like more “free” benefits, student loan forgiveness, abortion, illegal immigration “reform.” The great majority of politicians espousing those policies are also anti freedom and anti 2A in particular. And therein lays the problem.

Yes, therein lays the problems. You raised all good points reflecting the reality, and challenges, that we face, which are societal and cultural at it very least. Any further discussion on my part may be treading into deep, and banned, waters……….. back on topic so this important thread doesn’t get shut down……

[jgl64]

After careful consideration of the "facts and fantasies" being presented recently in the media concerning gun rights, I would agree perhaps it is truly time for change.
The overwhelming majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens that go about their everyday business without the general public even knowing they are gun owners or supporters of the Second Amendment. To a large extent, this has been our goal, "no one needs to know".

Here is the rub.... to the media, politicians (local, state, and federal) and the general public we are a nameless, faceless group. As a group we don't stage sit-ins, we don't plan million person marches, we don't burn flags or pull down monuments. We exist under the radar. We do an excellent job not letting the media, politicians and general public confront the fact we are parents, grandparents, teachers, doctors, construction workers, school bus drivers, you know...average hard working citizens choosing to exercise a Constitutional right.

Maybe we need a change, become more visible, become more vocal. Instead of being on the defensive to protect gun rights move to the offensive and profess gun rights.

[johngalt]

What's also sad is that so many think we need justification to assert our civil rights.

[AlHunt]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

This is the problem from the initial post. The OP didn't thoroughly identify the opposition. Those that oppose the Second Amendment want to eliminate it as an individual right. They will chip away because they know that they can't reach their final goal in one big step. Our only defense is not to appease them, but stand firm against them at all turns. They are already winning over the hearts and minds of our children and grandchildren.

We need to get on offense. Propose new gun laws like mandatory firearms safety education in the schools, starting in about 3rd grade. Safety is good, right? Then we can "compromise" and just require it to be offered. Then the next year, go after the mandatory part. Just be relentless, with many multiple bills on every front.

That would require politicians willing to draft and sponsor the legislation. We just don't have it.

[rednichols]

I agree with the OP's premise, you are your own worst enemies. I've been a gun enthusiast since '63 but have lived in a country since the turn of this century that has no guns. I've spent plenty of time before then representing companies in the gun industry at trade show, but when I attended the 2015 SHOT show and saw you had welcomed silencers and bump stocks into the fold? And assault rifles everywhere on display. American Handgunner magazine is now about assault rifles in the main? Not the responsible gun-owning country I knew until 2000. You're killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, the 2A, all on your own.

[cmj8591]

Originally Posted by rednichols

I agree with the OP's premise, you are your own worst enemies. I've been a gun enthusiast since '63 but have lived in a country since the turn of this century that has no guns. I've spent plenty of time before then representing companies in the gun industry at trade show, but when I attended the 2015 SHOT show and saw you had welcomed silencers and bump stocks into the fold? And assault rifles everywhere on display. American Handgunner magazine is now about assault rifles in the main? Not the responsible gun-owning country I knew until 2000. You're killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, the 2A, all on your own.

So we should only be allowed to own guns with wood stocks and blued steel? Revolvers only? Bolt action rifles, are they OK? How about ammo? Should we only be allowed to have FMJ bullets? You are missing the point.

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by rednichols

I agree with the OP's premise, you are your own worst enemies. I've been a gun enthusiast since '63 but have lived in a country since the turn of this century that has no guns. I've spent plenty of time before then representing companies in the gun industry at trade show, but when I attended the 2015 SHOT show and saw you had welcomed silencers and bump stocks into the fold? And assault rifles everywhere on display. American Handgunner magazine is now about assault rifles in the main? Not the responsible gun-owning country I knew until 2000. You're killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, the 2A, all on your own.

You're aware that an 'assault rifle' is select-fire rifle chambered for an intermediate powered cartridge? What was at the SHOT show were just ugly semi-auto rifles. What's wrong with suppressors (they aren't 'silencers')?

Bump stocks? No interest in one, I don't really see the point of spraying inaccurate fire. But if a range is designed to accomodate it safely, go for it.

Of course, the way to put all those silly work-arounds to rest is to repeal NFA 1934. Make SBRs, AOWs, full auto, suppressors, etc available same as any other firearm.

[Bald1]

Originally Posted by rednichols

I agree with the OP's premise, you are your own worst enemies. I've been a gun enthusiast since '63 but have lived in a country since the turn of this century that has no guns. I've spent plenty of time before then representing companies in the gun industry at trade show, but when I attended the 2015 SHOT show and saw you had welcomed silencers and bump stocks into the fold? And assault rifles everywhere on display. American Handgunner magazine is now about assault rifles in the main? Not the responsible gun-owning country I knew until 2000. You're killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, the 2A, all on your own.

You sound like a defeated man who gave up the fight in his homeland and is now giving advice???????? No thanks

[Bald1]

Originally Posted by AlHunt

We need to get on offense. Propose new gun laws like mandatory firearms safety education in the schools, starting in about 3rd grade. Safety is good, right? Then we can "compromise" and just require it to be offered. Then the next year, go after the mandatory part. Just be relentless, with many multiple bills on every front.

That would require politicians willing to draft and sponsor the legislation. We just don't have it.

The problem with this is THE people teaching gun safety. It will turn into guns are bad. Stay away from guns. You don’t need a gun. Anti gunners doing Anti things.

[BE Mike]

Originally Posted by AlHunt

We need to get on offense. Propose new gun laws like mandatory firearms safety education in the schools, starting in about 3rd grade. Safety is good, right? Then we can "compromise" and just require it to be offered. Then the next year, go after the mandatory part. Just be relentless, with many multiple bills on every front.

That would require politicians willing to draft and sponsor the legislation. We just don't have it.

Teacher unions wield so much power that it is unlikely that firearm safety classes will ever be common in schools. I'm sure that there are school districts scattered about the country that offer firearm/ hunter safety, but they are few and far between.

[BE Mike]

Originally Posted by rednichols

I agree with the OP's premise, you are your own worst enemies. I've been a gun enthusiast since '63 but have lived in a country since the turn of this century that has no guns. I've spent plenty of time before then representing companies in the gun industry at trade show, but when I attended the 2015 SHOT show and saw you had welcomed silencers and bump stocks into the fold? And assault rifles everywhere on display. American Handgunner magazine is now about assault rifles in the main? Not the responsible gun-owning country I knew until 2000. You're killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, the 2A, all on your own.

You must have been horrified that in the year 2000, people could still own and shoot machine guns!! I will never agree with anyone who wants to decide what is ok and what is not. California gun laws are a great example of government by fiat. I'm sure that you are very happy living where there are no guns, but it isn't my choice. I think that ole Abe had it right "...government of the people, by the people, for the people..."

[AlHunt]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

Teacher unions wield so much power that it is unlikely that firearm safety classes will ever be common in schools. I'm sure that there are school districts scattered about the country that offer firearm/ hunter safety, but they are few and far between.

It was an example. We need to start pushing for extreme pro2A laws and then let them spend their energy talking us down off the cliff.

[ladder13]

As long as the current education system and outlets like the WAPO and the NYTIMES exist we’ll never get a fair shake.

[crc4]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

Teacher unions wield so much power that it is unlikely that firearm safety classes will ever be common in schools. I'm sure that there are school districts scattered about the country that offer firearm/ hunter safety, but they are few and far between.

Teacher Unions are one of the reasons I support the voucher system where the state-allotted money per student goes with the student to whatever school, public or private, he wishes to attend.

Public schools, in general, have become complete failures, more like daycare for thugs, where sincere and hard-working students get little education about what matters, but plenty of indoctrination and propaganda from progressives.

[Well Armed]

Originally Posted by rednichols

I agree with the OP's premise, you are your own worst enemies. I've been a gun enthusiast since '63 but have lived in a country since the turn of this century that has no guns. I've spent plenty of time before then representing companies in the gun industry at trade show, but when I attended the 2015 SHOT show and saw you had welcomed silencers and bump stocks into the fold? And assault rifles everywhere on display. American Handgunner magazine is now about assault rifles in the main? Not the responsible gun-owning country I knew until 2000. You're killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, the 2A, all on your own.

So we are not responsible gun owners because we own AR15s aka semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines? Make it make sense! As far as SUPPRESSORS are concerned, you do now that they are legal to own and aren't even highly regulated even in many antigun countries? You do know that the owners of such accessory in the United States must have extensive background checks, notify their local law enforcement, be fingerprinted and photographed, wait months, and register their SUPPRESSORS to be able to own them? God forbid manufactures and vendors at gun shows promote and showcase items that are legal to buy.

Seems like you've been watching too many movies, and you've carried many of the antigun bias and rhetoric from the country you ran away from to our country and this forum.

Following the law, using firearms responsibility and safely, and owning legal firearms and accessories does NOT make us irresponsible gun owners. Just because we legal own accessories and fires you, FUDDS, and most Liberals don't like the look of doesn't make us irresponsible either. You're rhetoric is what's irresponsible IMHO.

The issue isn't with what guns and accessories we own. The crux of the problem is purely perception. We allowed our opposition to groom and use propaganda to misslead the easy fooled and ignorant (when it comes to firearms) into believing perfectly legal and normal things and actions are taboo.

[Well Armed]

I will never understand why people leave their state or country, escape to another state or country, and then support simular bull **** that existed in the place they just escaped from. That's like someone escaping from prison and then supporting and voting for indefinite martial law and curfews.

[ISCS Yoda]

This product can’t be shipped to the following states CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, HI, IL, IA, MD, MA, MN, NJ, NY, RI, VA, WA, DC

These folks know what they're doing, what the market is, and the cringe reaction..........

[BC38]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

This product can’t be shipped to the following states CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, HI, IL, IA, MD, MA, MN, NJ, NY, RI, VA, WA, DC

These folks know what they're doing, what the market is, and the cringe reaction..........

I see it a little differently.

I think it would be more precise to say these folks know and obey the letter of the law (if not the spirit or intent of the law) at the Federal level, and they also know the anti-gun laws that have ALREADY been passed at the state level that bar the sale of their specific product - in over 1/3 of the states of the union.

Regardless of one's opinion (good, bad, or indifferent) about these kinds of devices, that is the bottom line reality.

[ladder13]

What can’t be shipped to FL?

[Well Armed]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

This product can’t be shipped to the following states CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, HI, IL, IA, MD, MA, MN, NJ, NY, RI, VA, WA, DC

These folks know what they're doing, what the market is, and the cringe reaction..........

What can't be shipped to VA and FL? It's mostly Liberal states that are the issue. VA might be there next governorial election, but not at the moment.

[Oldsalt66]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

I wonder how many of the folks who chant "no compromise" as their mantra on gun issues have actual, real-world, practical experience dealing with legislators and other elected officials? How many here have lobbied legislators or testified at committee hearings on various issues? And if so, when you did, did you explain why a given proposal was a good or bad idea? Or did you march in and demand that the people you were trying to influence bend to your will because you will not "compromise"?

Ideological purity sounds really good...but it rarely works as a tactic. There's an old saying that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and that's still true today.

The devices that provoked the creation of this thread are not firearms, nor are they necessary in order for firearms to function as intended. My Second Amendment rights do not depend upon my being able to buy or own one of these gadgets. They are novelties at best, and at worst they constitute a cynical attempt to skirt federal firearms laws. In defense of our rights, we hold ourselves up to the non-gun owning public as law abiding citizens, don't we? And if we do, shouldn't we obey both the letter and the spirit of the law?

Gun ownership is always under attack in this country, with our opponents regularly proposing all sorts of new 2A restrictions. We are in a precarious position. Yes, we have made tremendous progress in many respects (especially with regard to the right to carry for self-defense), but we have had significant setbacks in a number of states, as many of us can attest. Giving our adversaries the rope they will happily use to hang us is just not a good idea, in my opinion.

Tell it to the people of The Commonwealth of Virginia where both houses of their state legislature just passed a cleverly worded "assault weapons ban" that's currently sitting on the Governor's desk.

Another example of "compromise" at its finest .

Just kidding, there is no compromise involved, the gun grabbers methodology is to grind our gun rights to dust, and the only effective means of resistance is unapologetic activism of the same sort being employed by the progressive gun grabbers themselves.

My own experience with interacting with legislators and public officials is extensive, and leads me to opposite conclusions than your own.

It's unapologetic "in your face activism" that has proven to lead to positive political results for our gun rights, as it has for the social issues pushed by progressives as well, including their anti gun laws.

[Matt_X]

I realize this has drifted a little from the original focus, but I think in a more useful direction. But first to address Mr. Nichols. SHOT as you know is a trade show and really aimed at insiders. Perhaps I'm wrong but even if I had a product for a limited or restricted market, this might be a good place to try to generate interest and make connections. In any event I am not shocked to learn that you saw such items there. Further, while in the States we additionally restrict silencers, one can make a reasonable arguement that these can be very practical devices. They can help protect hearing, and provide less disturbance to nieghbors and nearby animals whether dispatching varmints or shooting bullseyes.


Earlier Fordham wrote: “…….They are already winning over the hearts and minds of our children and grandchildren.”

That is the point, isn’t it……..... Change the minds of the voting public and you change the voting pattern and the political landscape. And to do that, we may need a new and different strategy."
Amen!

One part of that can be to engaging and responding in a positive way, providing a rational but different perspective whenever opportunities present themselves. This was what I have tried to do with Mr. Nichols.

I live in an area dominated by people with judgemental litmus tests. But a fair number I can, now and then, when opportunity presents, get small but important points across in a similar way. For example, there are rational reasons for people to want a firearm made with modern technology.

There's no reason we can't change perceptions. Our biggest enemy is ignorance in much of the media and those who are ambivelant. People are afraid of what they don't know. Point out the ignorance by explaining the subject rationally and factually. When possible draw them in with something they know or are already familiar with. Let them know they need to learn about their topic. We win no friends by calling names or lumping everyone with different opinions on other topics into the opposition.

As far as the next generations, we need to engage them the same way we used to. Things like the junior rifle program have shrunk dramatically in recent decades. Shooting sports, and marksmanship programs used to be far more common in scouting, YMCAs, high shcools and colleges.* That's not going to turn around overnight. But anything we can do to introduce folks to the shooting sports will increase appreciation of firearms and always a benefit to our nation whenever need for infantryman arises.

*A few years ago I looked for information about the Jr Marksmanship program and found this brief history. The current version of the progam had 9,000 participants in 2004, versus 374,112 participants in 1961.