President to Close Gun Show LoopHole

[Badmatrix]

Originally Posted by glenwolde

Only Congress can authorize "Universal Background Checks". Closing "The Gun show Loophole" doesn't really stop private sales, just some abuses of the system. Mostly it's grandstanding.

These new rules are going to be fairly easy to monitor through online activity. Frequent gunbroker listings? You're a dealer.

Unintended consequences: gunbroker loses some business. These shadow dealers could, ironically, go to more gun shows as the online advertising is too visible.

Sell only at gun shows, only take cash, don't pay for advertising.

Ye Right, brilliant…..and risk going away to jail for a firearms violation and lose the right to have firearms. No thanks.

[deadin]

Sell only at gun shows, only take cash, don't pay for advertising.

How about just get a FFL?

[pawngal]

Sell only at gun shows, only take cash, don't pay for advertising.

That is about the dumbest comment in the entire thread. ATF is monitoring gun shows and making purchases from these non-dealers. That was part of the case with the Arkansas guy.

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by deadin

How about just get a FFL?

Because an American who is qualified to own and possess personal property should not be forced by a governing body to be licensed to sell, transfer or trade that property so long as the buyer/transferee is equally qualified......Ben

[deadin]

as the buyer/transferee is equally qualified.

And how do you know this stranger meets the qualifications?

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by deadin

And how do you know this stranger meets the qualifications?

In the same manner in which the stranger knows I meet the qualifications......Ben

[biku324]

Originally Posted by heeter3

It looks like he may be banning cannibals next.

Where was that deal cooked up??

[paknheat]

I bet the ATF smuggled more guns across the border than any were ever bought illegally at a gun show.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[vt_shooter]

If the goal of the government was to make the citizens safer they'd start by keeping repeat offenders in jail. What percentage of violent crime is perpetrated by repeat offenders - 90%? Maybe higher.

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by vt_shooter

If the goal of the government was to make the citizens safer they'd start by keeping repeat offenders in jail.

Or under it......Ben

[H Richard]

Hmmmm, my C&R 03 FFL states (in bold print), THIS LICENSE DOES NOT AUTHORIZE THE HOLDER TO ENGAGE IN THE BUSINESS OF DEALING IN ANY FIREARMS.
Where does this stand in all this mess?

[biku324]

Originally Posted by paknheat

I bet the ATF smuggled more guns across the border than any were ever bought illegally at a gun show.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You'd be wrong.

There is an enormous and growing market in Mexico for anything will pop a 5.56. 7.63x39, 7.62x25, 9mm, or 45 ACP cap. Burglaries, straw purchases, individual private sales, questionable gunshow sales are all used, usually by fine folks who smuggle dope and people north, then guns, ammo, and money south. It's worse today than even the 90s because jobs here are plentiful, licensed marijuana is legal and hard to distinguish from illegal weed, the fentanyl market just keeps growing, and the US checks exactly NOTHING southbound into Mexico.

[WCCPHD]

Originally Posted by Bozz10mm

They call it closing the gun show loop hole, but in reality, it is much more sinister than that. If you, me, anyone sells any firearm with the intent to make a profit, even just one firearm, the ATF can label you as a dealer.

You are partially right. They CALL it closing a non-existant loophole.

What it's intent is to CLOSE GUN SHOWS. (PERIOD).

[WCCPHD]

Originally Posted by deadin

How about just get a FFL?

Most of those who sell at gun shows that people here are speaking of don't have storefronts. They can't afford to rent them for "occasional sales."

Try to get an FFL at you house. I seem to remember ATF cracked down on "table top dealers" years ago. Most cities/counties have zoning that would not allow home FFL's even if ATF would issue the license. (Its how North Carolina cracked down on alcohol sales permits, requiring applicants to have a notice signed by the local zoning administrator stating that the potential business is in compliance with zoning regulations).

Just call this what it is: GUN CONTROL. It is an attempt to make an end run around the Second Amendment. Can't bear arms if you can't buy them. Also, they are trying to make buying ammo more difficult (and expensive). Bearing unloaded arms defeats the purpose.

And always remember, Gun Control is not about guns, its about CONTROL.

[deadin]

I plan on doing as much trading as possible; (Two $5 cats for a $10 dog...)
Won't know if I made a profit unless I actually sell something...

[rockquarry]

The Ft. Worth gun show usually has a good size crowd, but it appeared to be a larger gathering this weekend...

[Racer X]

What about the Tinder loophole?

YouTube

[EX11B]

Originally Posted by Telecaster

So, a guy buys a gun at a gun show without a background check (because he would fail it), then goes out and commits armed robbery. What happens to him under this new "rule" that wouldn't happen now? From what I've read, the prosecutors tend to ignore the dozens of laws they break and only prosecute the easy ones like armed robbery.

It's just a feel-good proposal so they look like they've "done something"

This new rule only effects the seller, there is no penalty for the buyer. It is set up to punish law abiding people

[22hipower]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

The Ft. Worth gun show usually has a good size crowd, but it appeared to be a larger gathering this weekend...

Last time I went the best tables were the guy with the pickled quail eggs and another with multiple flavors of fudge. If someone wanted a (or hundreds of) cheap Chinese (or perhaps Pakistani) knives, there were plenty of those too. Probably no one cares much about those sellers' profits, if any. Unfortunately collectable S&Ws were mostly obvious by their absence.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

[Kevin J.]

Originally Posted by biku324

Where was that deal cooked up??

I see what you did there

[Xfuzz]

UPDATE:

Texas Attorney general and the Kansas Attorney general have
filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction against the Bidens administration and the ATF concerning the "engaged in the business" rule.

Here is hoping...

YouTube

[Racer X]

now 3 lawsuits involving 26 states AGs. 26 Republican attorneys general sue to block Biden rule requiring background checks at gun shows

[bruce5781]

Luckily, I have already used the Gunshow Loophole to dispose of all my guns. I figured the lakes were already polluted enough from all the boating accidents.

[CH4]

Originally Posted by pawngal

Calm down, this is much ado about just some wording defining "engaged in the business"
In the GCA the original wording to require an FFL was " “principal objective of livelihood and profit” and “engaged in the business”
The new wording is “predominantly earn a profit” (“PEP”) and “terrorism,”

If you are really bored, here is the bill
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...earms/download

“Congress has never passed into law the ATF’s dramatic new expansion of firearms dealer license requirements, and President Biden cannot unilaterally impose them..."

That's why 3 states' AGs have filed suit, with 24 states piling on.

[smith17]

Last week I forwarded info to a friend of mine who sponsors small shows in Texas, asking him how it would affect him. He responded that he was unaware of such a change in BATFE code. Yesterday he called and said he checked with 3 BATF agents and they said they were unaware of anything changing at all and that I must have bad info.

[LVSteve]

Originally Posted by smith17

Last week I forwarded info to a friend of mine who sponsors small shows in Texas, asking him how it would affect him. He responded that he was unaware of such a change in BATFE code. Yesterday he called and said he checked with 3 BATF agents and they said they were unaware of anything changing at all and that I must have bad info.

I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

[smith17]

This new rule goes into effect as early as tomorrow, May 20, unless it is blocked. I wrote John Cornyn who voted last year for the bill that enabled the BATFE to change the definition of a dealer. He responded yesterday after 2 weeks saying he and more than 50 senators have sought to block it from going into effect as that was not the intention of the bill.
"Not the intention" is what we are always worried about when a feel good legislation is passed and this one is a prime example. I am afraid this will change the gun show pastime and we will be telling our grandkids about the good old days.

[Mike0251]

A Texas Court has granted a temporary restraining order to prevent the BATFE from enforcing its “engaged in the business” rule against Virginia Citizens Defense League members, Gun Owners of America members, and Tennessee Firearms Association members, as well as residents of the state of Texas, and a Mr. Jeffery Tormey.

We were told that VCDL, GOA, and TFA were the only gun groups to file suit. There are two other suits that involve some states, gun stores, and individuals.

If you live in Virginia and you are NOT a member of VCDL or GOA, you are NOT covered by this temporary restraining order, unfortunately.

[Xfuzz]

Originally Posted by Mike0251

A Texas Court has granted a temporary restraining order to prevent the BATFE from enforcing its “engaged in the business” rule against Virginia Citizens Defense League members, Gun Owners of America members, and Tennessee Firearms Association members, as well as residents of the state of Texas, and a Mr. Jeffery Tormey.

We were told that VCDL, GOA, and TFA were the only gun groups to file suit. There are two other suits that involve some states, gun stores, and individuals.

If you live in Virginia and you are NOT a member of VCDL or GOA, you are NOT covered by this temporary restraining order, unfortunately.

Any link available?...
Disregard .....I found one.

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by Xfuzz

Any link available?...
Disregard .....I found one.

Here's one, Howie......Ben

[Mike0251]

https://cdn.ymaws.com/vcdl.org/resou..._order_eib.pdf

[GaryS]

I just came to post this. Good news.

Originally Posted by Mike0251

https://cdn.ymaws.com/vcdl.org/resou..._order_eib.pdf

[walnutred]

I think the timing of this EO is the key to the purpose. Money and energy spent fighting this will not be available during the upcoming elections to support opponents.

[biku324]

Originally Posted by SAFireman

A nation of free people, who have a right to arms should not need a background check.

Crooks don't buy at gun stores, legally, they seem to be stealing them from homes and cars.

Criminals do indeed buy guns from gun stores and from gun shows as well as from relatives, friends, and straw purchasers.

[AJ]

As I understand all of this there will be no more private sales allowed at gun shows. The only way you will be able to buy, sell, or trade a firearm is on a 4473. Since FFL dealers are the only ones around here using 4473's, you'll have to deal will a dealer. This is a win-win for the dealers and a losing proposition for gun owner. Dealers will have you over a barrel as to accepting their offers for your piece or going without. Am I off the mark on this?

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by AJ

As I understand all of this there will be no more private sales allowed at gun shows. The only way you will be able to buy, sell, or trade a firearm is on a 4473. Since FFL dealers are the only ones around here using 4473's, you'll have to deal will a dealer. This is a win-win for the dealers and a losing proposition for gun owner. Dealers will have you over a barrel as to accepting their offers for your piece or going without. Am I off the mark on this?

Nope, you're on the mark.
Then next, it will be the gun dealers feeling the squeeze.
That's how it works- what is good for you this week, will come for you the next.
Eating the elephant, one bite at a time. Since 1934.

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by AJ

As I understand all of this there will be no more private sales allowed at gun shows. The only way you will be able to buy, sell, or trade a firearm is on a 4473. Since FFL dealers are the only ones around here using 4473's, you'll have to deal will a dealer. This is a win-win for the dealers and a losing proposition for gun owner. Dealers will have you over a barrel as to accepting their offers for your piece or going without. Am I off the mark on this?

I doubt it. We're fooling ourselves if we don't believe the big gun show promoters have anticipated this happening for a long time and most of of them have probably been planning for it rather than sitting by and doing nothing like idle Internet posters who preach their erroneous doomsday theory like they were YouTube maestros.

As a convenience, the promoters will likely make available several FFL holders whose only purpose at a gun show will be to efficiently handle transfer transactions between non-FFL persons, vendors and customers alike. You won't be taken advantage of by an alleged FFL opportunist unless you want to be.

It's not the end of gun shows or the free world as some would like you to believe.

[walter o]

Rrock quarry is correct ,promoters here have had a FFL holder set op to take and run the paper work for several YEARS ,SOME WITH OUT OF STATE LICENSES so out of state buyers could purchase firearms

[AJ]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

I doubt it. We're fooling ourselves if we don't believe the big gun show promoters have anticipated this happening for a long time and most of of them have probably been planning for it rather than sitting by and doing nothing like idle Internet posters who preach their erroneous doomsday theory like they were YouTube maestros.

As a convenience, the promoters will likely make available several FFL holders whose only purpose at a gun show will be to efficiently handle transfer transactions between non-FFL persons, vendors and customers alike. You won't be taken advantage of by an alleged FFL opportunist unless you want to be.

It's not the end of gun shows or the free world as some would like you to believe.

I beg to differ with you. Yes, we can still purchase, sell, or trade with dealers on the 4473 forms. This will be accomplished on their terms.
What they have is gold and what you have is junk. However, not being able to deal on somewhat equitable terms with private sales owner will be putting more money in the FFL's pockets and less fair deals with the gun owner. At the least with a private sales individual the dealing is a two sided affair. This will cause windfall profits for the FFL's. Now if I am wrong please tell me where..... The promoters will be lining their pockets somewhere along the line as are the FFL's.

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by AJ

I beg to differ with you. Yes, we can still purchase, sell, or trade with dealers on the 4473 forms. This will be accomplished on their terms.
What they have is gold and what you have is junk. However, not being able to deal on somewhat equitable terms with private sales owner will be putting more money in the FFL's pockets and less fair deals with the gun owner. At the least with a private sales individual the dealing is a two sided affair. This will cause windfall profits for the FFL's. Now if I am wrong please tell me where..... The promoters will be lining their pockets somewhere along the line as are the FFL's.

I think you're wrong. You needn't buy from someone who is trying to shake you down. I don't and many others don't. I've been on both sides of the tables for forty years. None of this is worthy of argument.

[pawngal]

Originally Posted by AJ

I beg to differ with you. Yes, we can still purchase, sell, or trade with dealers on the 4473 forms. This will be accomplished on their terms.
What they have is gold and what you have is junk. However, not being able to deal on somewhat equitable terms with private sales owner will be putting more money in the FFL's pockets and less fair deals with the gun owner. At the least with a private sales individual the dealing is a two sided affair. This will cause windfall profits for the FFL's. Now if I am wrong please tell me where..... The promoters will be lining their pockets somewhere along the line as are the FFL's.

If you purchase a firearm online you pay a transfer fee when you pick it up at your selected FFL. So what's wrong with paying a transfer fee at a gun show?

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by pawngal

So what's wrong with paying a transfer fee at a gun show?

Everything.

You shouldn't need the government's permission, or have to pay a fee to buy/sell perfectly legal personal property between citizens.

And don't forget what's at the heart of this... the transaction must be APPROVED by the government. They want control of ALL firearms transactions.

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by pawngal

So what's wrong with paying a transfer fee at a gun show?

Nothing if you don't mind spending money unnecessarily and want to contribute more tree-killing paper to the government's file cabinets which are already at the bursting point...No, nothing wrong at all......Ben

[AJ]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

I think you're wrong. You needn't buy from someone who is trying to shake you down. I don't and many others don't. I've been on both sides of the tables for forty years. None of this is worthy of argument.

Originally Posted by pawngal

If you purchase a firearm online you pay a transfer fee when you pick it up at your selected FFL. So what's wrong with paying a transfer fee at a gun show?

Originally Posted by Rodan

Everything.

You shouldn't need the government's permission, or have to pay a fee to buy/sell perfectly legal personal property between citizens.

And don't forget what's at the heart of this... the transaction must be APPROVED by the government. They want control of ALL firearms transactions.

This is what I have been trying to say. Why does the individual need to have the governments permission to buy, trade or sell a gun to a legal U.S. citizen? This is just benefiting the FFL holders and the government. No, you don't have to do a deal with an FFL if you do not feel the deal is acceptable to you. However, these folks are in business to make money and that comes out of your pocket. Private sellers are trying to make a dollar, but usually are more reasonable than FFL's. What happens when you want to give or leave your firearms to family members? They are going to wind up having to go to an FFL sooner or later........

[AJ]

Originally Posted by pawngal

If you purchase a firearm online you pay a transfer fee when you pick it up at your selected FFL. So what's wrong with paying a transfer fee at a gun show?

What does this have to do with buying from a private seller at a gun show? From private sellers at a gun show there is no transfer fee's involved.

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by AJ

This is what I have been trying to say. Why does the individual need to have the governments permission to buy, trade or sell a gun to a legal U.S. citizen? This is just benefiting the FFL holders and the government. No, you don't have to do a deal with an FFL if you do not feel the deal is acceptable to you. However, these folks are in business to make money and that comes out of your pocket. Private sellers are trying to make a dollar, but usually are more reasonable than FFL's. What happens when you want to give or leave your firearms to family members? They are going to wind up having to go to an FFL sooner or later........

Not true. You can leave them to family members without paperwork.

[brucev]

I don't waste time listening to him pass gas. Sincerely. bruce.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by walter o

Rrock quarry is correct ,promoters here have had a FFL holder set op to take and run the paper work for several YEARS ,SOME WITH OUT OF STATE LICENSES so out of state buyers could purchase firearms

Originally Posted by AJ

I beg to differ with you. Yes, we can still purchase, sell, or trade with dealers on the 4473 forms. This will be accomplished on their terms.
What they have is gold and what you have is junk. However, not being able to deal on somewhat equitable terms with private sales owner will be putting more money in the FFL's pockets and less fair deals with the gun owner. At the least with a private sales individual the dealing is a two sided affair. This will cause windfall profits for the FFL's. Now if I am wrong please tell me where..... The promoters will be lining their pockets somewhere along the line as are the FFL's.

This will NOT stop individuals buying/selling guns from other individuals, and it will NOT force you to only buy guns from dealers at the gun shows.
What it will mean is that for an individual to individual sale you will have to go to one of the FFLs at the show and have them do the 4473 & background check in order for the sale to be legal.
Of course the FFL charges a fee for the service, but that is the only thing they get out of it.
This is how it has been at Washington gun shows for 5 years or so, ever since they passed the law that all sales require a BGC

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by BC38

This will NOT stop individuals buying/selling guns from other individuals, and it will NOT force you to only buy guns from dealers at the gun shows.
What it will mean is that for an individual to individual sale you will have to go to one of the FFLs at the show and have them do the 4473 & background check in order for the sale to be legal.
Of course the FFL charges a fee for the service, but that is the only thing they get out of it.
This is how it has been at Washington gun shows for 5 years or so, ever since they passed the law that all sales require a BGC

Yes, but some can't figure out the simplicity of all this. Their need to be allegedly persecuted by the government overrides good sense.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Not true. You can leave them to family members without paperwork.

At least one state requires that now So the Federal Government won't be far behind.

Originally Posted by BC38

This will NOT stop individuals buying/selling guns from other individuals, and it will NOT force you to only buy guns from dealers at the gun shows.
What it will mean is that for an individual to individual sale you will have to go to one of the FFLs at the show and have them do the 4473 & background check in order for the sale to be legal.
Of course the FFL charges a fee for the service, but that is the only thing they get out of it.
This is how it has been at Washington gun shows for 5 years or so, ever since they passed the law that all sales require a BGC

Just where do you think this is headed? Especially if the current regime gets another four years to work on it.