Good/No Good for Self Defense

BrianE

BrianE

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Recently I picked up a box of Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr JHP. I was reading different reviews and came across this site... Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm and he says its garbage... :eek:.

Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.
Click to expand...
So, Id like to hear some opinions from here and see what experiences you've had.

Thanks all!
 
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I don't have to worry about any 147 gr. bullet jamming in my Model 940 REVOLVER. I don't know what the velocity of that Ranger is supposed to be, but I can get 1080 FPS with 147 gr. jacketed bullets out of my 2" barrel. That kind of performance is considered a death ray out of a 2" barrel .38 Special, yet ineffecive out of a 9mm? Believe what you want, but I carry 147 gr. bullets in my 940.

Dave Sinko
 
There was a time when Hawks' statements about 147gr. 9x19 ammo were pretty well supported by empirical data with respect to its effectiveness. However, my experience tells me that he grossly overstates the malfunction issues, and the latest designs of 147gr. JHP bullets seem to be working well in the field. I personally do not carry ammo with bullets heavier than 127 grains in 9x19, but I'd not feel terribly undergunned with latest generation Ranger-T or Speer Gold Dot in the 147 grain weight, either.
 
Well, opinions are like.....
I have no idea what credentials Chuck Hawks has or does not have
and will not insult him, however, Chuck Hawks likes S&W about as much as a hen would like a fox in her nest! That is where our disagreements barely start.

147 Gr 9m/m was a very popular trend with LE in the 1980s when the Glcok, SIG, and S&W auto worked their way into duty holsters. It made a
9 more like a hot 38. In those days, many believed the 38 was hotter
than the 9mm. Some even thought the 9mm was more akin to the 380
than the 38. I have actually heard that said-no one had chronographs then. The 147gr loading in the 9mm is identical to the 147 38+P+.
It was extremely accurate, had no recoil, and was easy to train with.
147gr 9mm was also popular due to penetration concerns that occured in the often quoted 1986 Miami shooting when using 115gr 9mm.

The early 147gr ammo expanded but just not as much as the newer stuff. The Ranger 147 gr load is very popular and is a heavy favorite in law enforcement. The 147gr load has been the only load for the 9m/m the FBI authorized.

The newer 147 loads like Ranger or HST penetrate well, transfer energy,
and are also more accurate than the lighter loads. I occassionally carry
a SIG P226 9mm and it only gets 147 Federal Hydra Shok ammo. Never a malfunction, jam, or any other problem. Are they the best? That is open for debate because the 115gr +P+ has a great record.


Shot placement and penetration is what it all boils down to. Just a thought, back in the days before HP ammo was available people trained for good shot placement. Good shot placement with ball ammo is in most cases plenty from what anecdotal evidence and hunting I have been involved with. HP lets you fudge a little but is not a crutch. Train as if you are carrying a .22 and expect it not to work. Make shot placement your main consideration and use good tactics if that God-forbid situation ever occured.

Check out this article by a veteran lawman and hunter that you might find interesting. I have never seen anything in his work that was not credible.

The Browning Hi Power and 147


Good luck and hope that answers your question.
 
The Hi Power article is good, but the loads tested lack velocity. Nowadays you can get 147 gr. bullets that should do close to 1200 FPS from service grade autos. I am no fan of the 9mm for service use, but I believe it's an excellent choice in a pocket gun. And as far as I'm concerned, the heavier the (bonded core) bullet, the better.

Dave Sinko
 
I'm not much for "Anonymous" authors; either you stick by what you write, or let someone else do it. There are many instances in this article, which appears to be nothing more than a compliation of Marshall, Sanow, and Ayoob's work, where the "author" contradicts himself. For example, he states, "One should carry only hollowpoint ammunition in a defensive handgun," yet goes on to discuss "exotic" rounds such as Glaser, Mag-Safe, etc. Since he does not mention Pow'rball, I assume the information contained in this article is dated.
If you want the real story, read Marshall & Sanow's or Ayoob's work directly, and make your own judgements. There has been significant dialog about the 147 grain 9mm among experts who put their name to their work, why pay attention to an "internet expert?"
 
The "internet expert" was an example of something Ive read when I googled 9mm 147g review, not something I was convinced by. I quoted what caught my eye for the 9mm. He said its junk... 'B' says its decent... 'C' says its great...

Reason I posted on here, to see what experiences the shooters on this forum have had w/ that select ammo. Im looking for "When I used that particular ammo...", not "Ive heard", "Ive read", etc....

:rolleyes:
 
I've put a couple boxes through a 6906 with no problems whatsoever, that's evidence enough that they are in the mags right now.
 
The person quoted as saying that 147s don't work in a Glock is mistaken. Last week I tested someone's Glock for him with three or four mags, ball ammo and Federal 147s, Hydrashock, as I recall, and they both worked with full mags and near-empty mags, every mag.

Maybe the mistaken person had been reading old Ed Sanow articles and thought that Ed knew what he was writing about.

P.S. Just visited the quoted web site. Looks like I made a good guess on Sanow!
 
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BreakerDan said:
Chuck Hawks likes S&W about as much as a hen would like a fox in her nest!
Click to expand...

That is correct, he has had some very negative things to say about S&W revolvers. I have read him, and find his writting to be highly opinionated, in certain cases. It takes backing to get your articles published in magazines and books, but I think almost anyone can purchase some bandwidth and say whatever they want to on the internet.
 
Whomever the anonymous author is certainly entitled to his opinion. I don't agree with his viewpoint and, in fact, there are many agencies that use the 147 (Ranger T, HST, Gold Dot) hollowpoint and are quite satisfied with its' performance. I put far more stock in real world OIS results than some rant by an anonymous author of unknown credentials.
 
The lighter 120-somethings are working well on the street. They offer more velocity, energy and are penetrating well. I don't believe there is anything to gain by using a heavier bullet in that caliber. I think there is an optimal weight for a given caliber/cartridge and my opinion is that it's the 120s in 9mm. The current generation of 147 gr. 9mm is good, very well engineered ammo, but I still think it's a good example of, "You come up with a bad idea and I'll figure out how to make it work".
 
I have only one 9 MM a 3913, I have shot both 124 & 147gr both function flawlessly, the 147 closer to point of aim at 20 yards.
After doing the typical searches and looking at tests, I am convinced that either the 124 gold dot or 147 HST will do what ever I require of it for self defense.
 
I skimmed over the article posted and though the author seems to point out a few valid theorys, when i got to the part about how lead bullets were garbage and the author wouldn't even use them for practice it became apparent to me that this guy spends more time reading opinion articles like his own rather than actually shooting and seeing what works.

I would have to file this one under the armchair commando/mall ninja catagory.
 
Opinions are like, you know...

...just that. Opinions.

I think that Mr. Ayoob has rethought his use of the Marshall and Sanow data. Seems that they were taken to task by people who actually worked in the field of wound ballistics for using anecdote instead of measurement.

Here's something I pulled off the Terminal Effects section of Tactical Forums:

"From Dr. Gary Roberts on 02/17/09:

9mm Win 124 gr +P JHP (RA9B); ave vel=1206 fps (G19); gel cal= 9.5cm@593fps
BG: pen=13.5", RD=0.61", RL=0.38", RW=124.5gr
4LD: pen=15.1", RD=0.47", RL=0.48", RW=124.5gr

9mm Fed 147 gr HST JHP; ave vel=997 fps (G19)
BG: pen=14.6", RD=0.61", RL=0.39", RW=147.1gr
4LD: pen=15.6", RD=0.56", RL=0.53", RW=145.5gr"

Looks good in jello. I wouldn't worry about it.

And you can find much more credible information than the Chuck Hawkes pages. Pretty hit or miss there. ;D

BTW, you don't say if you got the RA9B, or the PDX1. I have a couple hundred rounds of the RA9B myself; I have faith in it as one of the best defensive 9mm rounds available.
 
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I have a lot more faith in the people on this forum than I do in your author. When a "professional" uses terms like "stupid", "weak", and "worthless" in his review of a product, it seems to reflect more of a personal opinion. The 147gr debate will rage forever. I have heard both positives and negatives. I would say if it functions properly in your firearm, it shoots to the point of aim, and you have confidence in the round, then by all means use it. Winchester is definitely one of the better bullet designs, whether T-Series Bonded or PDX-1. They both appear to be lethal, to say the least, when fully expanded.
 
I dont want this getting out of hand, pay no attention to the article writer. Just the 147g 9mm... :)

This is not "my" author.......... I stumbled upon this article after I had purchased some Winchester Ranger Bonded 147g (RA9B). I dont read about this guy, I know nothing about this guy. It was a Google search. Simply stated a quote from him (Maybe a bad idea.) and asked if its true or is the selected ammo good for self defense.

So, honestly what Im looking for is... Yes, Ive used it, my opinion is....... good/not good. Im not looking to start any BS about this Chuck Hawkes guy. I have faith in the members on this forum to, reason Im asking...... Some of you have great info on the ammo and some are getting wrapped up in this writer of the article and not giving ANY information on the question at hand.

So, lets keep it to YOUR experiences with the 147g 9mm.... Please. :D
 
I have used both in my 9mm, and they run from S&W to browning to Glock. I also spoke to many local officers both active and retired. They like the 124 grn and thay also like the 147 grn. Depending on the season, quite a few would switch to the 147 grn in winter, their armorer recomended it.

Right now in my 9mm I have 124 grn HP and some 115+p+ on on my shelf. I also have both weights in FMJ for range shooting. I don't have any 147 but I look for it when i go to the stores.


I haven't experienced any large amount of malfuntions with any of them that I could attribute to the ammunition. Most of the malfunctions I can blame on me.
 
My agency has issued the 147 grain 9mm for over twenty years. I don't carry a 9mm, but as a firearms instructor I've seen plenty of it fired in Sigs, Glocks, and Smiths on the range and it has always functioned just fine. If it didn't, we would have pulled it and replaced it with something else.

I know one guy who used it in a shooting. He shot a kidnapper through the windshield of the bad guy's car, hitting him in the upper lip, front to back. The bad guy folded and died. Its all about shot placement.

It has always amused me that a .355 caliber Hydra-Shok loaded to 950 fps in a 9mm case is garbage and will get you killed, while a .357 caliber Hydra-Shok loaded to 950 fps in a .38 Special case with a +P+ headstamp is some sort of death ray you should only shoot in N frame magnums. I never would have thought .002 would make such a dramatic difference.
 
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A lot of the original 147 gr 9mm ammo was intended for use in supressed submachineguns and was loaded to stay subsonic in 8 inch barrels. When fired in pistols, it's velocity was liesurely. Someone gave me some and I found it accurate, soft recoiling and barely pushed the slide back to the ejector. I found the empties a couple of inches from my right foot, which didn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. Despite that, it did expand reliably in tissue simulant.

Frankly, I prefer the lighter, faster bullets. However, it really doesn't matter that much what bullet you're using-you still have to hit vital areas. Bonded core isn't of much value if you're not shooting through laminated glass.

As previously noted, much of the information found on the internet is worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
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