Yes, the information came from a S&W catalog, and the ballistic tables in the Gun Digest.
Ralph Tremaine
Recommendations for .38spl Self-Defense Ammo
- Thread starter PlatypusWithaGun
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Yes, the information came from a S&W catalog, and the ballistic tables in the Gun Digest.
Ralph Tremaine
8shot
Member
Keep in mind - HP ammo is illegal in NJ (felony)
Reference info: BANNED: A State-By-State Look at Restricted Guns, Ammo and Parts
Reference info: BANNED: A State-By-State Look at Restricted Guns, Ammo and Parts
Although some were originally limited production Q loads, +P .38 Special was never a "police only" product as was +P+ .38.
1974 was the year for the adoption of the +P designation by SAAMI.
For example, the Winchester 158 grain LSWC HP had been available at the same specification - but without the +P designation - for about 5 years.
I bought this box of pre +P Winchester .38 back then from an LGS.
Added 2 pages from a 1959 Remington ammunition catalog for historical reference. The second page table lists claimed velocity and barrel length data for each cartridge. Remington's designation for higher pressure/higher velocity ammunition was Hi Speed.
Also Peters ammunition notes from 1932, 1948 and 1952 showing their high velocity .38 and .38-44 cartridges.
====================
+ P HEADSTAMP
''For velocity reasons, certain .38 Special center-fire revolver and pistol cartridges have been loaded to two acceptable pressure levels for many years.
''Recent recommendations of some firearms manufacturers state that the higher pressure cartridges should be used in certain models only.
''In order that cartridge cases loaded to the higher pressure level can be identified by anyone both before and after firing, the members of SAAMI have recently adopted the practice of adding a +P to the headstamp of the cartridge cases. An appropriate explanation is furnished on the factory-packed box.
''This practice has been adopted without obsolescence of existing stocks.''
American Rifleman July, 1974 Page 51
Volume 122 No. 7
1974 was the year for the adoption of the +P designation by SAAMI.
For example, the Winchester 158 grain LSWC HP had been available at the same specification - but without the +P designation - for about 5 years.
I bought this box of pre +P Winchester .38 back then from an LGS.
Added 2 pages from a 1959 Remington ammunition catalog for historical reference. The second page table lists claimed velocity and barrel length data for each cartridge. Remington's designation for higher pressure/higher velocity ammunition was Hi Speed.
Also Peters ammunition notes from 1932, 1948 and 1952 showing their high velocity .38 and .38-44 cartridges.
====================
+ P HEADSTAMP
''For velocity reasons, certain .38 Special center-fire revolver and pistol cartridges have been loaded to two acceptable pressure levels for many years.
''Recent recommendations of some firearms manufacturers state that the higher pressure cartridges should be used in certain models only.
''In order that cartridge cases loaded to the higher pressure level can be identified by anyone both before and after firing, the members of SAAMI have recently adopted the practice of adding a +P to the headstamp of the cartridge cases. An appropriate explanation is furnished on the factory-packed box.
''This practice has been adopted without obsolescence of existing stocks.''
American Rifleman July, 1974 Page 51
Volume 122 No. 7
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A good old LEAD semi wadcutter.......Ya don't need those $2 to $4 dollar a round super zapper ammo.
just plain joe
Member
Some good posts here. As to recoil, the difference between standard pressure and " +P " .38 Special is nothing that can't be addressed with practice/sustainment training.
I can't speak about penetration and so will stay in my lane and say that I am not knowledgeable. However you can research specific revolver/pistol loadings and find information that relates to this. I believe the "Lucky Gunner" website has some such info.
Try not to get wrapped around the axle (like I once did) about expansion and penetration, just be cognizant of them. In the end, bullet placement carries the day. Try different bullet weights/styles/brands and see which you can best control. A hit center mass/cranium with a .22 lead bullet is much more effective than a peripheral hit/miss with a larger caliber bullet. As an aside, lots of people have been turned into canoes by the .22 LR cartridge.
Be wary of anyone who tells you that a certain bullet/caliber is a "death ray". There is no such thing. A pistol or revolver is a compromise. It's what you take into harm's way when you can't bring a rifle or a shotgun, or two of your friends, each with a rifle or shotgun.
Just remember, It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.
HTH.
JPJ.
I can't speak about penetration and so will stay in my lane and say that I am not knowledgeable. However you can research specific revolver/pistol loadings and find information that relates to this. I believe the "Lucky Gunner" website has some such info.
Try not to get wrapped around the axle (like I once did) about expansion and penetration, just be cognizant of them. In the end, bullet placement carries the day. Try different bullet weights/styles/brands and see which you can best control. A hit center mass/cranium with a .22 lead bullet is much more effective than a peripheral hit/miss with a larger caliber bullet. As an aside, lots of people have been turned into canoes by the .22 LR cartridge.
Be wary of anyone who tells you that a certain bullet/caliber is a "death ray". There is no such thing. A pistol or revolver is a compromise. It's what you take into harm's way when you can't bring a rifle or a shotgun, or two of your friends, each with a rifle or shotgun.
Just remember, It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.
HTH.
JPJ.
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Doug M.
Member
.38 ammo should not be counted upon to expand. You must have accurate placement and put the rounds in vital area, about which I have posted before. Ample penetration is also required, and if you look at Doc Roberts' reports, you will have a good idea of the concept.
.357 rounds may be harder to shoot with good accuracy. Accuracy with rounds delivered as fast as possible will mean .38 for most of us. I can qualify with 145 grain Silvertips, but I shoot better and faster with the .38 SWC.
To really succeed at home defense, you must discourage bad actors and make home invasion seem like a lot of work for little gain. Lights, fencing, big dogs all will make the malefactor pick someone else. You can't measure that non-event, but you will have won.
.357 rounds may be harder to shoot with good accuracy. Accuracy with rounds delivered as fast as possible will mean .38 for most of us. I can qualify with 145 grain Silvertips, but I shoot better and faster with the .38 SWC.
To really succeed at home defense, you must discourage bad actors and make home invasion seem like a lot of work for little gain. Lights, fencing, big dogs all will make the malefactor pick someone else. You can't measure that non-event, but you will have won.
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I used the FBI round during my career and it saved my life but I’m not sure if it can be had in standard pressure. By definition it’s a 158 grain lead hollow point and it’s probably available through one of the better ammo vendors.
I have been using these for the rare occasion I carry a 642. Supposedly "standard pressure" they are full power and accurate. A case of 500 rds has free shipping and will last a long time. Joe
Prvi Partizan 38 Special Ammo 158 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point
Prvi Partizan 38 Special Ammo 158 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point
Standard .38 SD ammo for 4"
Federal 130 gr. HST
Winchester 130 Train and Defend
Hornaday 125 gr XTP
Remington 125 gr. Golden Saber
However, I'm concerned about watered-down loads as the years go by.
Federal 130 gr. HST
Winchester 130 Train and Defend
Hornaday 125 gr XTP
Remington 125 gr. Golden Saber
However, I'm concerned about watered-down loads as the years go by.
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IF I lived in NJ........
...or some other pansie state that didn't allow HPs, I just load up with LSWCs with a big meplat and not worry a bit. Maybe even soft ones. That ought to swell up about the size of a quarter. That's a big IF because I don't intend to move there.
...or some other pansie state that didn't allow HPs, I just load up with LSWCs with a big meplat and not worry a bit. Maybe even soft ones. That ought to swell up about the size of a quarter. That's a big IF because I don't intend to move there.
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Yes, but ammo like Hornady's Critical Defense/Critical Duty with flex tip bullets are legal.
I've never been able to recover any 158 gr LHPs fired in testing. They're the energizer bunny of .38 ammo, they just keep gooooooing. Some informed sources mention that if the sternum or other bone is struck, they do expand.
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Buffalo Bore +p 38 ammo 158 gr is my go to for me..
I can't duplicate it reloading .....
I can't duplicate it reloading .....
You're assuming facts not in evidence-and apparently not aware of results from forensic examinations. Also, there's a practical limit to barrel length.
ETA: Since Jim Cirillo was mentioned I checked his book. He often used unauthorized Super Vel ammo. Also, he and Bill Allard used hand loads on the job-also unauthorized. While early in the book Cirillo mentions wadcutters in the snubby's (doesn't mention if factory), in 50 some years, there's been a revolution in bullet design.
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shil
Member
If you are really fixed upon standard-pressure ammunition, I would suggest a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter and learning to shoot your revolver well. Magic bullets and hyper-velocity won't compensate for bad shooting. Me? I load my snubs, none of which is rated for +P, with "obsolete" Federal 125 grain Nyclad hollow-points from a jealously-guarded supply. I have no idea if they are still made.
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Federal discontinued the Nyclads. Despite several design changes, results seem rather uneven over time. I recently tested some of my remaining stock. One fired into water from a snubby expanded to an astonishing 0.640 in but only penetrated 7.75 inches. Inadequate. An older version would expand to only .40 ish, don't recall penetration.
ETA: recalled Stephen Wenger. Those who like the idea of wadcutters might visit his website. The ammo selection is at ~spwenger's DEFENSIVE USE OF FIREARMS: Ammunition Selection
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I'm a tad confused. First you note that lucky gunner tests aren't consistent. Then you come back citing their data.
Rather than getting deep into technical stuff, I'll quote a distinguished member here who's job required review of hundreds of homicide files: "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen and all else is angels dancing on the head of a pin."
Magic/bigger/faster bullets can't make up for poor shot placment.
Rather than getting deep into technical stuff, I'll quote a distinguished member here who's job required review of hundreds of homicide files: "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen and all else is angels dancing on the head of a pin."
Magic/bigger/faster bullets can't make up for poor shot placment.
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I'm a fan of loading 148 or 150gr. wadcutters then, 158gr. SWC on a speed strip. But I mostly shoot little J frames. With that big heavy 686 you won't feel the difference between standard and +P 38 spl. The .357 is a big jump.
Anyway bullet type, loading and caliber really mean nothing in self defense. Trigger control and bullet placement is where it's at. Pop say, four rounds of .22 Magnum in the upper chest of a bad guy and his day is over.
Big guns blowing a criminal off their feet and through a plate glass window is Hollywood. Unless maybe you carry a 12 GA. Rifled slug gun concealed. OK now I'm being snide here.
Anyway, get a couple of thousand rounds of a light training round (Fiocchi wadcutters) and really work that trigger control. Dry fire until you can stage it every time.
Anyway bullet type, loading and caliber really mean nothing in self defense. Trigger control and bullet placement is where it's at. Pop say, four rounds of .22 Magnum in the upper chest of a bad guy and his day is over.
Big guns blowing a criminal off their feet and through a plate glass window is Hollywood. Unless maybe you carry a 12 GA. Rifled slug gun concealed. OK now I'm being snide here.
Anyway, get a couple of thousand rounds of a light training round (Fiocchi wadcutters) and really work that trigger control. Dry fire until you can stage it every time.
Oh Boy! Another several thousand woids regarding "Which best ammo shall I use?" In my earlier years, I recall reading in a book by a popular (?) scribe, claiming the .38 Spl. is "weak", but the .45 ACP "Comes on like a well-trained Rhinoceros!" And other Malarkey, which continues to this day! Most professionals likely disregarded this "wisdom", although it contains a smidgen of truth. Today, we have much evidence that the "one-stop shot" is not a myth, but an unsure thing, and there is evidence that most handgun cartridges are quite similar in effectiveness. We have regular questions like "Do I DARE shoot .38 Specials in my 357 Magnum?"Orrr..."Why wouldn't-couldn't-shouldn't I use my sock drawer .22 for defense?" And the most common; " Can I shoot 357s in my 14 ounce ez carry, short barrelled flamethrower?" Discussion is good, and opinions abound, But sources like Lucky Gunner, as imperfect as they may be, and even some YouTube presenters give good, repeatable opinions. IMNHO, almost any "self defense" round, made by any of the major manufacturers wil be more than adequate, given a competent shooter. That doesn't mean they must $hoot thou$ands of rounds a week, in these days...a major expen$e...but enough to be well acquainted with their gun and load. It helps if a person can load practice ammunition that resembles their defense load. I watched an old black and white WWII film about training Bombardiers(?sp) and believe what an instructor said was applicable to us:"Hit the target, hit the target, HIT THE TARGET!" All else is of minor importance.
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