Questions about hyper velocity 22 LR ammunition

[PAgunman]

Good evening and Merry Christmas,
I have a question about using hyper velocity 22 LR ammo in my s & w model 41. I have taken this gun to a local gunsmith who found a small burr located in the path of the extractor and he smoothed it down by sanding it down. The gun extracts much better now. Out of 26 shots, only 2 jammed where I had to use a screwdriver to remove the empty casings after firing and failure to extract. (I plan on using a brass brush to clean the chamber with hoppes#9 very thoroughly and see if it passes the plop test——after Christmas). The gunsmith advised me to use higher velocity ammo and 40 grain bullets since he placed a 7lb Wolf spring and told me it would work better with higher velocity ammo. He told me I could try a lower poundage spring if I wanted to shoot standard velocity ammo…..it would be a “trial and error process”. After he worked on and tested my gun, he felt that higher velocity ammo would work more reliably and consistently……he felt many model 41’s just perform better with higher velocity ammo.
My questions: 1) is Aguila 40 grain 1470 fps too fast? Can it crack the barrel or casing? 2) what is “too fast”? 1150, 1200, 1280, 1300, 1400 fps ammo? 3) will a brass brush scratch the chamber? Any other recommendation?
My gun seems to really like the Winchester Super X 22LR 40 grain 1280 fps ammo. Second choice is CCI Tactical 40 grain 22 LR 1200 fps bullets; a close third choice is Federal Auto-match 22 LR 40 grain 1200 fps ammo.
I also have a total of 5 s & w magazines that I use….2 are “more difficult to work with” because they do not allow the ammo to fire reliably…..I don’t use them often.
Thank you!

[Fishinfool]

I am no expert on the model 41, but did own one for years. I hear a lot of guys who say shoot only standard velocity out of a 41. My 1980's gun, I shot tens of thousands of high velocity .22 ammo without issue.

A brass or bronze brush will not hurt your chamber or barrel. A clean chamber helps reliability.

"High or Hyper Velocity" .22 ammo will not burst your barrel. All commercial .22 rimfire ammo I am aware of is not loaded past SAAMI / CIP pressure standards. In fact, you may find that heavy bullet / hyper high velocity speciality ammo to be actually slower in your pistol than the standard high velocity stuff. I know the CCI Velocitor is. It gains it's high velocity rating with a 40 grain bullet out of a rifle barrel, where the slow powder they use burns completely. Not so fast out of a handgun length barrel. The Aguila ammo probably uses the same formula.

I would experiment with various flavors of both standard and high velocity ammo until I found a load that was accurate and reliable in your pistol, then stick with it, no matter what it says on the label. And yes, .22's are known to be finicky....

Larry

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO I personally would use ammo with velocities of 1,200fps to 1,280fps but none of the 1,400+fps ammo. This is mostly due to the fact the M41 is meant for extreme accuracy and "usually" the higher velocity stuff isn't as accurate as the "target" ammo.

I would try CCI or Federal match grade ammo for the best results. If that ammo won't cycle go with a lighter spring. I don't think the gunsmith should have put that heavy a spring in the gun if ammo below 1,300fps won't run in the gun.

[chief38]

If your M41 is vintage and not under the S&W Lifetime Warranty you can try the following suggestions. If it is under warranty you can send it back, however you might want to try a few simple things below first.

Replace the recoil spring with the next lighter one for use with standard velocity ammo. I find CCI standard velocity works the best in M41's. NOTE: If you use a replacement spring from Wolff, make SURE the open end goes rearward - otherwise the gun can lock up. Wolff has in the past only finished one end of he spring where as the Factory spring is finished on both ends. Don't know if Wolff has corrected that yet. FINISHED END FORWARD TOWARDS MUZZLE!

You can use higher velocity ammo (Federal #510 Champion or American Eagle's version) seems about the best of the lot but I'd not use hi-vel ammo with a lighter spring as the gun will get beat up faster. I would NOT use hyper velocity ammo as you will beat the gun up. Accuracy will usually be at its best with standard velocity. The faster the bullet, the less inherent accuracy will usually be.

You can also replace the extractor with a Volquartsen Extractor. They are an improvement over the Factory one and many times solve extraction problems. Only about $15 or $20 bucks and easily installed for anyone with basic mechanical skills and basic tools.

When I originally bought my M41 back in 1979 I had issues with the gun. I did use Federal and Winchester high velocity ammo for a few months to help break the gun in and then went back to standard velocity ammo. The break in actually worked quite well and since 1980 the gun has worked 100% with CCI standard velocity with the standard factory spring.

I also have a Volquartsen Extractor installed because years later I did have extraction issues. The Volquartsen version solved that instantly. The Factory extractor is just not as good (IMO) and does tend to wear to the point that it can cause failures. I much prefer shooting standard velocity CCI and wanted it to be reliable with that as I do use the M41 for competition and wanted complete confidence in it - now I have that.

[shil]

The Model 41 is a target pistol. It should function with standard velocity ammunition. It's, of course, your privilege and I will not judge, but why shoot super-duper ammunition through a target pistol?

[PAgunman]

Thank you for all the responses regarding hyper velocity ammo and the model 41. I learned a lot. Much appreciated for all the knowledge shared. I feel that such knowledge is endless……there is soooo much to learn.

[Mike, SC Hunter]

Originally Posted by shil

The Model 41 is a target pistol. It should function with standard velocity ammunition. It's, of course, your privilege and I will not judge, but why shoot super-duper ammunition through a target pistol?

ABSOLUTELY.......My 41 gets and only will get standard velocity ammunition. Nobody reads and comprehends instructions anymore....S&W has always recommended STANDARD velocity far the 41 since it's inception. Some post here I read and just shake my head.

[2152hq]

Some of the HyperVelocity .22RF L/R ammo uses a case that is slightly longer than the standard .22LR case.
The OAL of the 2 rounds is the same,,but the OAL of the 2 brass cases is different.
The light weight bullet used in the HyperVel load needs the slightly extended case to bring the OAL of the loaded round out to the same OAL as the standard .22LR round.

I often wonder if the extra brass case being up in the throat of the standard .22LR chamber length may play any role in extraction issues in some guns.

A semi auto .22rf pistol should extract upon firing all by itself w/o even having a mechanical extractor part in place.
The empty fired case is the Piston that powers the slide to the rear and is firmly against the breech face in doing so.
It's the ejectors role to kick the empty aside and out of the way at the proper time.

Check the bbl face for any sign of the firing pin striking the chember edge and turning up a burr. That'll drag the case upon extraction and make for extraction issues.

The firing pin should fall just short (a few .000) of actually striking the chamber edge. Still enough to crush the rim of the cart and fire it.

[THE PILGRIM]

I have a Model 46 and a Hi Standard HDM.
Standard Ammo in them!

[Nevada Ed]

I had a Winchester 61 pump I tested out with different .22 ammo back in 2012 at 15 yards, off of sand bags.

The Federal 40gr Auto did 1200fps and shot a 5 rounds at..... .38 inch.
The CCI 40 LHP sonic at 1042fps ...................................... .54
CB Long 29 LRN ........... 640fps ........................................ .67
CB Short 29 LRN .......... 710fps ........................................ .84
American 38gr CHP ....... 1260fps .............................. 5 @ .33 but
this case failed to extract from my chamber, for some odd reason.

With my Marlin rifle, all bets were off due to different POA & groups.

The yellow jacket & Stingers were saved for my 100 yard work,
when needed.

Sorry, I do not own 22 pistols or revolvers, any more.

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by Mike, SC Hunter

ABSOLUTELY.......My 41 gets and only will get standard velocity ammunition. Nobody reads and comprehends instructions anymore....S&W has always recommended STANDARD velocity far the 41 since it's inception. Some post here I read and just shake my head.

Exactly right and a lot of that hyper velocity stuff may not be capable of decent accuracy.

[PAgunman]

I wish to thank everyone who responded. I have learned a lot…..this is a great site!

I would also like to emphasize that the gunsmith told me to stick with 40 grain bullets. Is this for accuracy or mechanical reasons such as perhaps being easier to extract?

Lastly, I own a Ruger 10/22 take-down rifle. I love it——it eats any brand of 22 LR ammo it is fed without issues. Can I shoot the hyper velocity 22 LR ammunition in this rifle without causing harm to the rife? I am referring to fps of 1300 and higher, including the 1470 fps Aguila 22 LR.

What type of gun and for what purpose if the hyper velocity ammo intended?

Thank you and Merry Christmas!

[rockquarry]

I think the hyper velocity ammo was really intended as a marketing ploy more than anything else, but the gadget oriented and "upgraders" equate new with "better" or "improved" and will often fall for the marketing scams.

If you can find some of this ammo that actually shoots more accurately than standard velocity or high velocity it might offer some sort of advantage, particularly for hunting. Quite surprisingly, I tried some hyper velocity ammo in a couple of good quality accurate scoped .22 rifles several years ago. I fired five, five-shot groups at 50 yards with each rifle. Average for both rifles (ten groups) was .68". This is impressive for hyper velocity ammo fired from unmodified out-of-the-box non-target rifles. The ammunition was Winchester Super X 40 grain plated Hyper Velocity HP.

Another Winchester ammo tested at the same time was Win. 42 gr. Max PP plated Hyper Velocity. Average group size was 1.24", poor accuracy, but if accuracy is secondary to velocity, this would pass as good ammo.

If you have a serious "need" for hyper velocity ammo, I'd try a box of as many different ones as I could find and shoot a lot of groups at fifty yards. Closer will only tell you that everything is accurate up close.

The Ruger should easily handle any .22 ammo.

[PAgunman]

As I mentioned above, the gunsmith placed a 7 lb recoil spring in my model 41. I went on the Wolff website today and saw that the website said that the model 41 comes with an 8 lb recoil spring. I ordered a 6 lb recoil spring today and will try that.

When I bought my model 41 performance center gun about 1.5 years ago, it had many FTE and jams. I ended up calling two gunsmiths in the South who “specialize” in model 41’s. One told me that the factory places a recoil spring that is too tight and that is what leads to these problems. They advised me to place a lighter spring and consider changing out the extractor to a Volquartsen extractor.

I will see how the higher velocity ammo (1150–1300 fps) runs with the 7 lb spring. Then will change it out to the 6 lb spring to see if I can run standard velocity CCI ammo through it reliably.

Before doing the above, I will clean out the chamber to eliminate any carbon rings and clean out my magazines carefully with a brass brush and hoppes #9.

I was told that model 41’s made many years ago ran better and more human hands were involved in their manufacturing……it was more of an art back then.

Heard that quality control has really dropped off especially during COVID time (2020–early 2022). Guns from all manufacturers experienced significant misfires, jams and failures to function. These guns made during this time are referred to as “COVID guns”.

Was told that even expensive knives made during this period have chipped and cracked when they were not supposed to due to a lack of quality control.

[Nevada Ed]

When young I owned a Ruger single six with the std 22 long cylinder and
also the cylinder for the more powerful 22 Magnum.

I shot a lot of the winchester super-X ammo back in those days but would save a high $$$ box of the 22 Mag's for special times or vermin
on my trips out in the fields, when needed, or I got an itch.

Always wanted a Browning high power but Santa never got my messages.

[PAgunman]

Also, I have read how jams and FTE occur. The extractor is one part of the issue. The ejector is the other part which is the weakest component in the gun supposedly. If there is too much side play in the ejector, then it doesn’t grab hold of the case. If the ejector is a bit too long, it doesn’t get a good hold on the case either. FTE problems is probably due to ejector problems then extractor problems.

From what I read and understand, to reliably eject the case, the extractor has to hold onto the empty case as the gas blows the empty case out of the chamber. If the extractor drops the case, it fall onto the upcoming bullet and causes a jam.

Basically, both the ejector and extractor have to work correctly to get 22LR ammunition to function correctly and the gun to fire reliably.

The above is what I read from an experienced gun person’s post on the website Rimfirecentral.com. This explanation is not my own but paraphrased. A lot of education!

I hate to give up on my model 41 and sell it at a loss without really trying to get it to work reliably!

[AJ]

A target pistol should run with standard velocity ammo, not high velocity. Different brands of SV ammo may shoot better, but all should make the pistol function properly. No manufacturer that I know of recommends HV in their target pistols. If you are having problems and no real good pistolsmiths in the area, them try a good cleaning and oiling first. If this does not work, them go to the parts and replace them one by one starting with the recoil spring. You Tube is full of How-to-do-it videos that will help.

[Dave Lively]

Originally Posted by Mike, SC Hunter

ABSOLUTELY.......My 41 gets and only will get standard velocity ammunition. Nobody reads and comprehends instructions anymore....S&W has always recommended STANDARD velocity far the 41 since it's inception. Some post here I read and just shake my head.

If S&W 41s were properly designed for standard velocity ammo they would reliably operate with standard velocity ammo.

Straight of the box from the factory. Or at least do so after a couple of small modifications like replacing the extractor. Many of them, including mine do not and never will. I replaced the extractor, etc, and still got about a 2% to 3% failure rate with the CCI standard velocity ammo the internet recommends as THE ammo for a 41.

Attached is the section of the manual of my mid-nineties 41 that covers ammunition. Just the standard boilerplate about ammo, nothing that states only standard velocity ammo should be used. The specifications state 22 Long Rifle, not 22 LR standard velocity ONLY, or 22 LR standard velocity recommended. Please scan a copy of the S&W factory documentation where you read only standard velocity ammo can be used in a 41. Not a link to what someone on the internet heard from customer service on a phone call.

To the OP:

My 41 is a tiny bit less accurate when using high-velocity ammo compared to standard. But the difference is too small to make up for the reduced reliability. If you are a skilled competitive bullseye shooter replacing your gun with one that reliably shoots standard velocity ammo maybe your only choice if you need that fraction of an inch smaller group at 25 yards. Otherwise, switch to high-velocity ammo like 40 grain CCI Minimags and enjoy shooting a very accurate and reliable S&W 41 that makes you look like a much better shot than you really are.

Normally I would suggest trying some the changes mentioned in this thread in an attempt to make the pistol reliable with CCI standard velocity ammo before switching to high velocity to get that small accuracy advantage. But it sounds like your gunsmith has already done that.

When your gunsmith said to use high-velocity ammo he was probably referring to something like CCI Minimags, not the stingers or other ammo that claims higher than normal velocities. Try calling him and ask specifically what type of ammo he recommends.

At some point those of us with finicky 41s face a choice. Keep beating our heads against a wall in a futile attempt to get it to work with the ammo the internet says we must use or log off and enjoy a reliable, accurate and fun to shoot pistol with ammo it prefers. I went with the second option and have no regrets.

Trust your gunsmith and what actually works best in your gun, not the internet.

[leuss]

S&W 41 Manual

[leuss]

Manual for my 622VR - it was factory sighted with High Velocity ammo .
And I use only High V , no problem)). But not hyper Velocity .
Just tried one time a stingers and yellow jackets, it works too.

[MJK-MOD-547]

If I was going to shoot HV out of my 41 (which I won't anymore).

I did briefly but I installed a BUFFER to keep from beating up the gun.

CCI SV is the way to go.

[Racer X]

hyper velocity .22 lr is basically for exploding squirrels. It isn't more accurate, it costs more, and unless in something like a bolt gun with a matching chamber, it causes more wear on something.