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Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P+ safe?
- Thread starter g4sjedi
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george minze
Member
Good question !!!!
Many well known gunsmiths and specialty gun builders say NO. One real well known gun builder actually told me he can tell a gun that has shot +P+due to stress points, and he will not work on, or upgrade a gun that has used +P+ ammo. I have a lot of faith in his opinion. However some say casual use is ok..I have asked the same question on this forum and have received numerous and diverse answers......You would think manufactures would have done enough testing to be definite about the answer. But that was probably truer back 20 years ago when the manufactures were all gun people and not holding companies.; Darn good question I would like to hear the opinions of some of our more experienced members myself...Good luck! I myself will not shoot +P+ out of any of my 39 series S&W pistols...I love the 39 series but I question the integrity of alum frame light weight frames Just my opinion and it cost you nothing.....
Many well known gunsmiths and specialty gun builders say NO. One real well known gun builder actually told me he can tell a gun that has shot +P+due to stress points, and he will not work on, or upgrade a gun that has used +P+ ammo. I have a lot of faith in his opinion. However some say casual use is ok..I have asked the same question on this forum and have received numerous and diverse answers......You would think manufactures would have done enough testing to be definite about the answer. But that was probably truer back 20 years ago when the manufactures were all gun people and not holding companies.; Darn good question I would like to hear the opinions of some of our more experienced members myself...Good luck! I myself will not shoot +P+ out of any of my 39 series S&W pistols...I love the 39 series but I question the integrity of alum frame light weight frames Just my opinion and it cost you nothing.....
The issue is that there are no...as in zero...standard specs for +P+ ammunition...that is SAAMI, NATO, Euro or otherwise. Thus no one can ever actually know what pressure limits such ammo may be loaded to. I have seen tons of +P+ Federal and Winchester fired through any number of 9mms...Sig, Beretta and S&W (both steel frame and alloy) in past years and I suspect the Speer stuff is also OK for realatively light use in your gun(s) as well, but cannot verify that as absolute. I do know that back when ISP was using lots of the original WW 115+P+ in their M39s they beat guns up very quickly but I am pretty sure even WW has toned down the pressures of that load. Back when, WW would drop ship only to an agency and required a Release of Liability form be signed by the Chief or Sheriff before they would accept the order.
The fact is that all US ammunition from the big ammo makers is watered down from 40+ years ago and comparing published maximum loads in loading manuals from the 60s and 70s to recently published ones is a real eyeopener. Ammo now branded as +P are loaded to levels that were once standard loads so I wouldn't be too worried about current +P+ branded ammo. In this litigious world we find ourselves living in today, you can be sure it's a shadow of what it once was.
The other thing is this. Neither you nor your handgun are going to live forever. If you have a desire to shoot +P+ ammo, I say "Indulge yourself!"
The other thing is this. Neither you nor your handgun are going to live forever. If you have a desire to shoot +P+ ammo, I say "Indulge yourself!"
LOBO
SWCA Member
If all you want to do is verify feed/function, and poa/poi of this ammo for self-defense use in your gun then I would say "rock on!".
Use of +P or +P+ ammunition is safe in high quality, modern firearms, that are in good condition.
Use of +P or +P+ ammunition will accelerate wear and shorten a firearms service life when compared to shooting standard pressure ammunition.
Please do not go out and buy subsonic 9MM ammunition unless you intend to suppress the firearm. Subsonic is not the best choice when it comes to personal defense.
I have to call BS on this one.
+P or +P+ ammunition does not cause different wear from standard pressure ammunition, it only causes wear to occur faster.
I only use aluminum nails because I don't want to "beat up" my hammers too badly. Does this make any sense?
Firearms are TOOLS! Use them to their best effect.
The Sarge
Member
Contrary to what gun writers, some authors with an agenda, and people on the internet say, the 147gr 9mm loading is the number one bullet sold to LE by far in that caliber. If it didn't work well on the street, we would not use it. The fast/light vs slow/heavy debate will never end. Both will work. Choose your ammo according to your requirements, applications, and what you have confidence in. For me, I want a bullet that will work under any situation or angle plus rapid follow up shots. In 9mm I run 147gr standard pressure. Bill
safearm
US Veteran
According to Speer's ballistic charts, there is only 90fps difference in mv (1210 vs. 1300) between the 115 grain standard pressure and +P+, and only 58 ft/lb of muzzle energy difference (374 vs. 432) between the two. Why risk a potential overpressure for such a little gain?
There's actually no "gain" at all. Speer's non +P+ will have better terminal performance. I'm not aware of any LE agency in the West that has selected it over the 147 or 124 grain versions.
Some of the "reduced velocities" of today's ammo in comparision with ye days of olde is due to progress. That is, better chronographs with greater availability and more realistic practices in clocking the ammo. In those golden days of yesteryear, chronos were expensive and not widely available. As a result, a great many velocities were "optimistic" and might have been produced in barrels bearing little resemblance to what's in use on the street.
If you look at today's ammo catalogs, you'll generally see notes for revolver ammo that note not only the barrel length, but that the test barrel is vented to duplicate the gas loss of the barrel/cylinder gap. That didn't happen back when and the cartridge developer was free to specifiy the test barrel length to SAAMI and there was no attempt to make claimed velocities relate to the real world.
Yes, +P+ ammo has no standards, and in some cases may not actually produce more velocity than selected +P, while voiding your warranty. Remember some of that stuff was developed back when bullet technology was stone age and velocity could make a difference. Today's bullet tech makes velocity a lot less important.
Remember, where you put the bullet is a lot more important than how fast it was going. Also remember you can't compensate for lousy shot placement with magic bullets.
If you look at today's ammo catalogs, you'll generally see notes for revolver ammo that note not only the barrel length, but that the test barrel is vented to duplicate the gas loss of the barrel/cylinder gap. That didn't happen back when and the cartridge developer was free to specifiy the test barrel length to SAAMI and there was no attempt to make claimed velocities relate to the real world.
Yes, +P+ ammo has no standards, and in some cases may not actually produce more velocity than selected +P, while voiding your warranty. Remember some of that stuff was developed back when bullet technology was stone age and velocity could make a difference. Today's bullet tech makes velocity a lot less important.
Remember, where you put the bullet is a lot more important than how fast it was going. Also remember you can't compensate for lousy shot placement with magic bullets.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safearm
According to Speer's ballistic charts, there is only 90fps difference in mv (1210 vs. 1300) between the 115 grain standard pressure and +P+, and only 58 ft/lb of muzzle energy difference (374 vs. 432) between the two. Why risk a potential overpressure for such a little gain?
Really? Is that based on your personal opinion, stats from lab testing using homogenous ballistic gel or documented shootings involving real human beings?
I wasn't aware that any CA agencies were using any 9x19mm +P+ duty loads until I picked up a case of Federal 9BPLE from a gun shop that was trade-in ammo from a No.Cal. University PD (still had the agency's name on the shipping label). Your statement of not knowing of any agency that selects the 115GDHP +P+ proves nothing.
Originally Posted by safearm
According to Speer's ballistic charts, there is only 90fps difference in mv (1210 vs. 1300) between the 115 grain standard pressure and +P+, and only 58 ft/lb of muzzle energy difference (374 vs. 432) between the two. Why risk a potential overpressure for such a little gain?
Really? Is that based on your personal opinion, stats from lab testing using homogenous ballistic gel or documented shootings involving real human beings?
I wasn't aware that any CA agencies were using any 9x19mm +P+ duty loads until I picked up a case of Federal 9BPLE from a gun shop that was trade-in ammo from a No.Cal. University PD (still had the agency's name on the shipping label). Your statement of not knowing of any agency that selects the 115GDHP +P+ proves nothing.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Would you be so kind as to show us some examples of where the velocity of a +P load matches or exceeds (even by the slightest fraction) the velocity of a +P+ load while using the same cartridge, same bullet weight and same manufacturer.
As an example, since the OP was asking about the Speer 115GDHP+P+, how about starting there?
Here, I'll start you out:
Speer 115gr Gold Dot +P+ = 1300fps (Speer's numbers)
Speer 115gr Gold Dot +P = ????
Ah heck. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll help you out with a 2nd example:
Federal 115JHP +P+ = 1300fps (Federal's numbers)
Federal 115JHP +P = ????
Last edited:
Knightrider03m
Member
I've been using +p+ ammo for my 9mm. I only use it to test it out of a new gun and once per year to change out the ammo. My guns are doing fine.
The part to consider is the last +. That means it's beyond recognized specs for the caliber.
I load ammo, I read the books, I work up to a load, and I can tell you that you will know when a load is really hot, and I can load you a round that will destroy your gun quite easily. My gun destroying load would be considered a +P+.
That said, I don't think Speer or Federal is going to make any friends loading ammo that is going to blow guns up and maim the operator. They have limits, and when they exceed those limits they are required to label the load +P+. Will frequent use damage a gun? Probably not. Accelerate the wear? Obviously. Maybe you have to change springs more frequently.
Can you see excessive pressure damage by naked eye? You bet. Stressed pins, joints and even metal will deform, discolor, bulge crack, swell and wrinkle. It does that just before it explodes, rips, buckles and tears. The first time you run a really hot load through a gun you will make up a couple new cuss words, then start looking at your gun figuring you'll find a lot of mangled and warped parts. It's amazing what guns will take, but a reloader can definitely make a gun-buster round.
I load ammo, I read the books, I work up to a load, and I can tell you that you will know when a load is really hot, and I can load you a round that will destroy your gun quite easily. My gun destroying load would be considered a +P+.
That said, I don't think Speer or Federal is going to make any friends loading ammo that is going to blow guns up and maim the operator. They have limits, and when they exceed those limits they are required to label the load +P+. Will frequent use damage a gun? Probably not. Accelerate the wear? Obviously. Maybe you have to change springs more frequently.
Can you see excessive pressure damage by naked eye? You bet. Stressed pins, joints and even metal will deform, discolor, bulge crack, swell and wrinkle. It does that just before it explodes, rips, buckles and tears. The first time you run a really hot load through a gun you will make up a couple new cuss words, then start looking at your gun figuring you'll find a lot of mangled and warped parts. It's amazing what guns will take, but a reloader can definitely make a gun-buster round.
