Are Speer Gold Dot 115gr 9mm +P+ safe to shoot in my 659 or 3906? I will not be using them all the time for casual target shooting.

Many well known gunsmiths and specialty gun builders say NO. One real well known gun builder actually told me he can tell a gun that has shot +P+due to stress points, and he will not work on, or upgrade a gun that has used +P+ ammo. I have a lot of faith in his opinion. However some say casual use is ok..I have asked the same question on this forum and have received numerous and diverse answers......You would think manufactures would have done enough testing to be definite about the answer. But that was probably truer back 20 years ago when the manufactures were all gun people and not holding companies.; Darn good question I would like to hear the opinions of some of our more experienced members myself...Good luck! I myself will not shoot +P+ out of any of my 39 series S&W pistols...I love the 39 series but I question the integrity of alum frame light weight frames Just my opinion and it cost you nothing.....

The issue is that there are no...as in zero...standard specs for +P+ ammunition...that is SAAMI, NATO, Euro or otherwise. Thus no one can ever actually know what pressure limits such ammo may be loaded to. I have seen tons of +P+ Federal and Winchester fired through any number of 9mms...Sig, Beretta and S&W (both steel frame and alloy) in past years and I suspect the Speer stuff is also OK for realatively light use in your gun(s) as well, but cannot verify that as absolute. I do know that back when ISP was using lots of the original WW 115+P+ in their M39s they beat guns up very quickly but I am pretty sure even WW has toned down the pressures of that load. Back when, WW would drop ship only to an agency and required a Release of Liability form be signed by the Chief or Sheriff before they would accept the order.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

The fact is that all US ammunition from the big ammo makers is watered down from 40+ years ago and comparing published maximum loads in loading manuals from the 60s and 70s to recently published ones is a real eyeopener. Ammo now branded as +P are loaded to levels that were once standard loads so I wouldn't be too worried about current +P+ branded ammo. In this litigious world we find ourselves living in today, you can be sure it's a shadow of what it once was.

The other thing is this. Neither you nor your handgun are going to live forever. If you have a desire to shoot +P+ ammo, I say "Indulge yourself!"

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Steve
NJ State Trooper (rtd)

If all you want to do is verify feed/function, and poa/poi of this ammo for self-defense use in your gun then I would say "rock on!".

[QUOTE=george minze;136180040]Many well known gunsmiths and specialty gun builders say NO. One real well known gun builder actually told me he can tell a gun that has shot +P+due to stress points, and he will not work on, or upgrade a gun that has used +P+ ammo. How can he tell if +p+ ammo was used? Ultrasound? How many suspect rds? I have not seen any info that showed how to see stress points. I really would like to learn how to determine this without the aid of ultrasound. Thank You...

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i say stick in the median & use +p. black hills makes a 115gr xtra power which is supposed to give extra vel, while not riskn any damage.

Maybe I will set both boxes aside and try some sub sonics. Im kinda attached to my autos. I dont want to beat them up too bad.

Use of +P or +P+ ammunition is safe in high quality, modern firearms, that are in good condition.

Use of +P or +P+ ammunition will accelerate wear and shorten a firearms service life when compared to shooting standard pressure ammunition.

Please do not go out and buy subsonic 9MM ammunition unless you intend to suppress the firearm. Subsonic is not the best choice when it comes to personal defense.

I have to call BS on this one.

+P or +P+ ammunition does not cause different wear from standard pressure ammunition, it only causes wear to occur faster.

The 115 grain Gold Dot +P+ is the least effective of the Gold Dot offerings in 9mm.

I only use aluminum nails because I don't want to "beat up" my hammers too badly. Does this make any sense?

Firearms are TOOLS! Use them to their best effect.

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Steve
NJ State Trooper (rtd)

Contrary to what gun writers, some authors with an agenda, and people on the internet say, the 147gr 9mm loading is the number one bullet sold to LE by far in that caliber. If it didn't work well on the street, we would not use it. The fast/light vs slow/heavy debate will never end. Both will work. Choose your ammo according to your requirements, applications, and what you have confidence in. For me, I want a bullet that will work under any situation or angle plus rapid follow up shots. In 9mm I run 147gr standard pressure. Bill

According to Speer's ballistic charts, there is only 90fps difference in mv (1210 vs. 1300) between the 115 grain standard pressure and +P+, and only 58 ft/lb of muzzle energy difference (374 vs. 432) between the two. Why risk a potential overpressure for such a little gain?

There's actually no "gain" at all. Speer's non +P+ will have better terminal performance. I'm not aware of any LE agency in the West that has selected it over the 147 or 124 grain versions.

Some of the "reduced velocities" of today's ammo in comparision with ye days of olde is due to progress. That is, better chronographs with greater availability and more realistic practices in clocking the ammo. In those golden days of yesteryear, chronos were expensive and not widely available. As a result, a great many velocities were "optimistic" and might have been produced in barrels bearing little resemblance to what's in use on the street.

If you look at today's ammo catalogs, you'll generally see notes for revolver ammo that note not only the barrel length, but that the test barrel is vented to duplicate the gas loss of the barrel/cylinder gap. That didn't happen back when and the cartridge developer was free to specifiy the test barrel length to SAAMI and there was no attempt to make claimed velocities relate to the real world.

Yes, +P+ ammo has no standards, and in some cases may not actually produce more velocity than selected +P, while voiding your warranty. Remember some of that stuff was developed back when bullet technology was stone age and velocity could make a difference. Today's bullet tech makes velocity a lot less important.

Remember, where you put the bullet is a lot more important than how fast it was going. Also remember you can't compensate for lousy shot placement with magic bullets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by safearm
According to Speer's ballistic charts, there is only 90fps difference in mv (1210 vs. 1300) between the 115 grain standard pressure and +P+, and only 58 ft/lb of muzzle energy difference (374 vs. 432) between the two. Why risk a potential overpressure for such a little gain?

Really? Is that based on your personal opinion, stats from lab testing using homogenous ballistic gel or documented shootings involving real human beings?

I wasn't aware that any CA agencies were using any 9x19mm +P+ duty loads until I picked up a case of Federal 9BPLE from a gun shop that was trade-in ammo from a No.Cal. University PD (still had the agency's name on the shipping label). Your statement of not knowing of any agency that selects the 115GDHP +P+ proves nothing.

Would you be so kind as to show us some examples of where the velocity of a +P load matches or exceeds (even by the slightest fraction) the velocity of a +P+ load while using the same cartridge, same bullet weight and same manufacturer.

As an example, since the OP was asking about the Speer 115GDHP+P+, how about starting there?

Here, I'll start you out:

Speer 115gr Gold Dot +P+ = 1300fps (Speer's numbers)
Speer 115gr Gold Dot +P = ????

Ah heck. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll help you out with a 2nd example:

Federal 115JHP +P+ = 1300fps (Federal's numbers)
Federal 115JHP +P = ????

I've been using +p+ ammo for my 9mm. I only use it to test it out of a new gun and once per year to change out the ammo. My guns are doing fine.

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The part to consider is the last +. That means it's beyond recognized specs for the caliber.

I load ammo, I read the books, I work up to a load, and I can tell you that you will know when a load is really hot, and I can load you a round that will destroy your gun quite easily. My gun destroying load would be considered a +P+.

That said, I don't think Speer or Federal is going to make any friends loading ammo that is going to blow guns up and maim the operator. They have limits, and when they exceed those limits they are required to label the load +P+. Will frequent use damage a gun? Probably not. Accelerate the wear? Obviously. Maybe you have to change springs more frequently.

Can you see excessive pressure damage by naked eye? You bet. Stressed pins, joints and even metal will deform, discolor, bulge crack, swell and wrinkle. It does that just before it explodes, rips, buckles and tears. The first time you run a really hot load through a gun you will make up a couple new cuss words, then start looking at your gun figuring you'll find a lot of mangled and warped parts. It's amazing what guns will take, but a reloader can definitely make a gun-buster round.

I did not stipulate the same manufacturer, nor did I mention claimed velocities. I referred to delivered velocities of the same bullet weight in the same weapon on the same chrono, same time.

However:
Federal 9BPLE (+P+) clocked slightly over 1200 fps at the same time Cor-Bon +P of the same weight clocked slightly over 1300 fps. IIRC, the Federal round about duplicated the velocities of Remington +P of the same weight. Other lots of the various ammunitions cited may produce slightly different results, as may different weapons.

Relative performance of the bullets was interesting. The Federal round simply shredded itself, the Cor-Bon's nose partially fragmented during expansion and produced secondary wound channels (don't recall the expanded diameter) and the Remington round mushroomed nicely to around .54. While the Federal round may have an enviable rep on the street, the lack of projectile integrity was disturbing and possibly has something to do with it's relatively poor rep on very large individuals.

Bear in mind, manufacturers generally do not design a different bullet for the +P and (where available) +P+ ammo. You're simply driving the same bullet faster. This may produce better expansion, it may also drive the round past it's design limitations and result in a failure to maintain integrity. With todays improved bullet designs, higher velocities are not necessary for adequate expansion.

Terminal performance is dictated by bullet placement, not velocity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR
Would you be so kind as to show us some examples of where the velocity of a +P load matches or exceeds (even by the slightest fraction) the velocity of a +P+ load while using the same cartridge, same bullet weight and same manufacturer.

Nor did you post that your statement was based on anything other than what appeared as just you opinion.

Sorry, but Fed 9BPLE clocking slightly over 1200fps is total BS. The only way this could happen is if the ammo was defective and under-loaded (highly improbable) in which case the ammo should have been sent back, or the ammo used was actually 9BP and not actual 9BPLE (more probable). 9BPLE is still a LE Only loading and Federal would not be shipping this ammo to LEA's if it only clocked 1200fps or less when it's standard is 1300fps (my ammo actually clocked 1319fps).

As a side note, Corbon's 115JHP+P was actually designed as a civilian +P+ loading and their early boxes were actually marked as +P+!

Your statement: "Yes, +P+ ammo has no standards, and in some cases may not actually produce more velocity than selected +P" still doesn't hold water when factually comparing factory loaded standard +P loads vs. LE designed +P+ loads using the same bullet weights. Using your own (or someone else's) backyard ballistics is meaningless when there are multiple variables to take into account along with the human bias agenda and "fudge" factor.

Assuming that testing was done in a backyard is in error. Nor were the results BS, they were duplicated on multiple chronos and the ammo bore proper headstamps.

Hi Our local PD uses +P+ 9mm for thier carry ammo,and the LE Armorer involved had to secure waivers for use in the Glock 19 sidearms.IMHO if you need that much power I think you would be better served to get a 357 sig or a 40 cal and call it a day.You don't need to worry about your sidearm going kaboom with a bad guy shooting @ you.Just my 2 cents worth.God Bless...Mike

....
Mike: You always need as much "power" as necessary! Getting any caliber, bullet style, weapon ( brand and/or model ) are generally the purview of the chief, sheriff, county/city board, and budget. It is few and far between that street LEO are asked THEIR opinion! Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

That is very sad that they don't ask the LEO's what thier opinions are.If I were king I would say the hell with just pistols and issue all LEO's MP 5's too.Then maybe LEO's would be equally armed as the criminals.

I have personally used either Cor-Bon 115gr +P or Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P for a good many years. The reason why I don't go a step higher to the +P+ is because I'm at my upper limit regarding controllability out of a 9mm pistol as it is. When I say "controllability" I'm not saying what's the most powerful round I can fire without discomfort. I'm saying what's the most powerful round that I can still keep 10 rounds inside a 10" circle at 10 yards in under 10 seconds. I think some folks worry too much about how much wear and tear they're putting on their precious firearm, and not enough about whether they can shoot such a load fast and accurately enough to save their backside. It's a matter of priorities.

When you consider the leaps and bounds that have been made in bullet technology, there really isn't a "need" for a +P+ 9mm load.

Federals 124 gr +P HST, Speers 124 gr +P Gold Dot, and Barnes 115 gr XPB bullet loaded at +P levels by Corbon & Black Hills are the best loads going in 9mm.

Question is, how many agencies will be willing to be sued for using a "machine gun" against criminals? Just ask Downey PD.

Downey Shooting: Downey Police Sued Over Machine Gun Shooting of Unarmed Man - ktla.com

(Run from the cops and make them think that you're armed, you win a one-way ticket to the morgue).

Well if you are stupid enough to run from the police,gesture in a threatening manner to make them think you are armed then you are asking to get shot.If the criminals knew the LEO's have MP5's then maybe they would think twice before engaging in such activity because it could be very hazardous to thier health.

CTG_COLLECTOR: Thank you for the link. The level of ignorance of the comment section is scary!! I guess all LEO are "bad" machine gunners?? I am surprised that the MP-5 was brought up, the guy was shot 3 times, How many LEO'S?? If it was only one sounds like a well placed burst!! Hopefully the truth will come out, but I will stay out of LA when the verdict is read. Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

The S&W manual says not to use +P ammo in revolvers (specifically "K" frames), and not to use +P+ ammo in any S&W firearm.

On page 2 of this thread, member Elmer noted that Speer Gold Dot 115 +p+ is the least effective 9mm of the bunch... Can he or anyone else point me to the empirical data that shows the comparisons? I am trying to understand how this round can be any less effective than any other 9 +p+ since it is a Gold Dot bullet and it is moving at a high velocity. I have a couple of hundred rounds of it and got it at a good price. Did I buy some ammo that someone had lost confidence in due to poor performance???

Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums

Out of my full size S&W MP 9mm.

Corbon 115gr +P average was 1329 fps.

Speer 115gr +P+ average was 1296 fps.

+P+ doesn't appear to be a big issue in this case.

Speer was Gold Dot, Corbon was not DPX all copper.

Good Luck