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What is Considered "Hot" .357 Ammo?

K

kbm6893

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I have a model 13 on the way in .357. I've owned several other K frame .357's over the years but traded them off to buy something else I thought I needed at the time. The 13 is here to stay. Anyway, i know about the "stick with 158 grain" rule, and I intend to, but what is considered "hot" ammo? Some people say the Winchester 110 grain personal protection you can buy at Walmart is very mild. I have three boxes of 158 grain ammo in front of me, American Eagle is listed at 1240 fps at the muzzle. Sellier and Ballot and Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points don't have the specs listed on the box. What is a "mild" .357 load, and is the Buffalo Bore 180 grain safe enough to carry for walks in the woods?
 
Generally accepted as mild - Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .357. Hot - any full 125 gr SJHP or JHP (Remington, Federal, etc.) - apparently a combination of bullet length, jump to the forcing cone, and hot gas/particles that creates problems. Lots of loads in between, like the American Eagle you mentioned.

Do you have the stats on the Buffalo Bore round?
 
murphydog said:
Generally accepted as mild - Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .357. Hot - any full 125 gr SJHP or JHP (Remington, Federal, etc.) - apparently a combination of bullet length, jump to the forcing cone, and hot gas/particles that creates problems. Lots of loads in between, like the American Eagle you mentioned.

Do you have the stats on the Buffalo Bore round?
Click to expand...

BB 180 grain is 1400 fps and 783 foot pounds. What is considered "full" ammo?
 
kbm6893 said:
BB 180 grain is 1400 fps and 783 foot pounds. What is considered "full" ammo?
Click to expand...

That would be pretty much the definition of "full", especially if this was from a revolver and not a test barrel. 158 gr at about 1500 fps was the original loading back in the 1930s. I'm sure others will chime in here.
 
So some 158 grain is still a bit of a stretch for a K frame? I'm just want some mild cheap practice loads for the occasional giggles at the range.
 
I could use a lesson here as well. How does bullet weight translate to hot or mild. To the untrained eye, would a lighter bullet me less stressful? I already know the answer is no but don't know why. Anybody got a simple explanation for an old guy who has dulled a bit with age?
 
Just looked up the specs on my Speer, 1245 fps, about 540 foot pounds. But that isn't practice ammo. I'm not shooting that pricey stuff at paper. What I want is a mild 158 grain .357 for paper punching.
 
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BVAC LSWC available from cheaper than dirt it's what I shoot in my snubby Model 19 less than 20 bucks for 50rnds.
 
I am conflicted here...always thought the 158gr loads were best for K Frames, recognized 125gr too hot and best to not feed too much .357 overall.

Now I stop at my FFL yesterday to pick something up, and he has some Winchester 110gr and Federal 158gr in .357MAG for sale on the counter, and he tells me the exact opposite! Sez 158gr too hot, heavier bullet, higher pressure, more recoil, and that the 110gr is best for K. Sheesh. What is the story here?
 
I presume "hot" .357 ammo (as in the originally published figures) would/should run 1550 FPS, 158-gr bullet, 8-3/8" barrel. I don't think even the original .357 factory loads actually did that, from what I have read. I have never had any cartridges to chronograph, but that notion has appeared often enough over the years that I gather it is accepted.

In my experience, about 100 FPS less than that is all I feel I can safely get using published data, in my guns, with my chronograph. In the shorter barrels, the velocities vary accordingly. So, in my case, any .357 cracking 1400 FPS, is moving right along. I do have a friend in Wyoming who seems to routinely get 100 FPS more than I do with almost any load we discuss. I have accused him of being a transplanted Texan, which he denies, so we just agree that I have "denser air" here in Indiana. :D

The controversy about light bullets in K-frames is a mystery to me. On one hand, the idea to avoid them makes sense. On the other hand, I think the idea to just avoid the steady use of magnum loads in general, unless you need them, is probably a better approach.

I don't like 125-gr .357s anyway, so I never use them, but I do deliberately try to spare the wear and tear on my K-frame magnums by keeping my .357 loads on what I consider to be the mild side. My .357s for general use, in all my guns, run around 1100-1200 FPS, just because I do not want to load different loads for different guns. If I need more power than that, I have a few other guns.

The remarks from the gunshop salesman are just... "remarks." :)
 
Speedgunner, like you, I've always hear that the K-frames were designed around the 158 grain bullet and the 125 grain bullets can cause problems with extended use.
 
I still don't get it. I think. Is it the lighter bullet goes faster because it's lighter? Sorry to be a dope but I am a factory load guy only and don't know about different loads. Plus I'm old and slow. lol
 
MrAmbassador said:
I still don't get it. I think. Is it the lighter bullet goes faster because it's lighter? Sorry to be a dope but I am a factory load guy only and don't know about different loads. Plus I'm old and slow. lol
Click to expand...

The formula for kinetic energy squares the velocity, so speed has a much greater effect on the energy delivered than mass. That is somewhat oversimplified, but its like driving a nail with a hammer- a slow moving six pound sledge won't be as good at delivering the energy as a fast moving 28 oz framing hammer.

Kinetic energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
The bullet moving down the chamber acts like a sliding valve. When it clears the barrel to cylinder gap, it opens the gap to the hot, high pressure gasses. A faster moving (lighter) bullet opens the gap sooner, since it takes less time to get there at higher speed, and allows the hot gasses to escape sooner, when the pressure is greater. The higher the pressure, the faster the gas moves. This causes more hot gas erosion to the top strap and forcing cone. Hot, fast gas is very erosive. The K frame magnums already have the lower part of the rear of the barrel cut away to clear the boss on the forward end of the cylinder, and this is why they are more prone to erosion from very fast cartridges.
I would carry the "hot" BB 180 gr hardcast cartridges in the field for dangerous animals with the idea that I wouldn't normally be doing other than carrying them. In the event of an encounter that would require firing the gun, I would accept any wear to my gun, and take a pain pill for the damage to my old hands from high recoil! Since the pressure is within SAMMI specs, the gun would not rapidly dis-assemble!

rat
 
"Hot" loads are any bullets loaded to maximum velocity and pressure ratings. That's going to tend to cause erosion of the frame at the cylinder gap, regardless of the actual bullet. All of these loads have about the same energy at optimum velocity, but with different effects and applications.

A light bullet is going a lot faster, which has a greater strain on the forcing cone and rifling. A 110-125 grain loaded to 1600+ fps is thus harder on the gun than a 158 grain bullet at a more normal 1300 fps. At the other end of the scale, a heavy bullet, like a hard cast 180 or 200 grain SWC is going to punish the frame and your hand more than a lighter bullet, due to recoil.
 
Oh I get it now, the freemastat and fragilator are directly proportional to the angle of the dangle. I'm sticking with 158gr still don't know why but somebody said they are good.
 
When you can take a shot and light your cigar at the same time - THAT"S HOT!

Buffalo Bore HEAVY fits the bill fairly well. I use their 158 grain FMJ (for 2 legged animals) and their 180 grain hard cast LSWC in my M65 for woods carry. Believe me, it's HOT but according to Tim Sundles (owner) it's still within SAMMI spec's. Hasn't caused any harm yet.

Chief38
 
MrAmbassador said:
I still don't get it. I think. Is it the lighter bullet goes faster because it's lighter? Sorry to be a dope but I am a factory load guy only and don't know about different loads. Plus I'm old and slow. lol
Click to expand...

The light bullet can go faster because you can load more of a certain powder under it at the same pressure as less powder under a heavier bullet.

Cut a piece of 2x4 lumber to the same size as a brick. Kick each one with your foot. Which one offers more resistance to your foot? Which one went farther with the same force of kick? which one could you kick harder?

Smokeless powder moves bullets by generating gas and pressure. The more powder you have the greater the volume of gas available to push the bullet at a given pressure.

A lighter bullet offers less resistance to the expanding gas, allowing more of the energy to be used to overcome inertia and accelerate the bullet.

A heavier bullet offers more resistance and requires that the expanding gas use more of it's energy to start moving the bullet, and pressure will build more quickly because of the greater resistance.

The heavier bullet requires that you use less powder to generate the same pressure, but with less gas available to move the bullet.

Say you load a .357 using Hodgdon Universal using 125 grain and 158 grain bullets.

Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com

We will use max loads for each:

125gr XTP - 7.6grs 1453fps 39,600 CUP
158gr XTP - 6.3grs 1133fps 39,300 CUP

Each load develops the same pressure, but the additional 1.3grs of powder provides much greater velocity because of the additional gas volume and less resistance to acceleration from the bullet.

Hope that helps a little.
 
Completing 62's above experiment. Take the 2x4 piece and brick, dropping both from the SAME height on your toes. Experience which hurts more.:o)
 
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