Point of Aim/Point of Impact Speer .38 +P 135 gr. Gold Dot Ammo

I was at the range recently with a newly acquired Model 640. This is one of the .38 Special chambered guns from 1994, not a 640-1 .357 Mag version. I set up a silhouette target at 7 yards and was aiming for the orange rectangle in the heart/lung area. I first tried some Magtech 148 gr. wadcutters to get a feel for the gun. It did not like them, groups were large with horizontal stringing and about 4" low. I switched to some Federal 158 gr. lead round nose ammo. Groups were better and the point of impact moved up to the orange rectangle aiming point. OK, so it seems that this gun has the sights regulated for heavier ammo.
Then I tried the much recommended Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot +P short barrel loads. I was a bit surprised by the size of the muzzle flash, I expected these to be a low flash load. Accuracy was quite good but the groups were centered about 3"-4" low from the 6 o'clock aim point on the orange rectangle. I suppose that giving an assailant several extra navels would deter him from violence but I'd like something that shoots to point of aim.
I'll probably try the 158 gr. FBI loads next time even though the Gold Dot bullet seems to have good performance characteristics.
Can anyone else comment on the POA/POI with this gun/ammo combination ?

That's not very surprizing, shifts in the POI are one reason why I prefer my 38's to be equiped with adjustable sights. However, I don't carry a revolver and instead rely on a Sig P239, so revolvers are for me range or home duty handguns.

Since you are using your 640 for Defense I would suggest that you start doing what aging eyesight has driven me to do with my Sig. The simple truth is that I can't see the sights on my Sig anymore unless I'm shooting outdoors in full daylight.

What I've started doing is what I call "Weapon Guided Point Shooting". Basically, I don't bother trying to see the sights, I just hold the pistol at eye level and use the shape of the gun in my hand as a reference to guide my shots. For me it's been a gradual adaption to changes in my vision that took place slowly so it was unnoticed. However, I've come to realise that I no longer look for the sights and instead simply use shape and position to aim. End result is that at 30 feet I'm able to keep everything inside of a 5 inch shoot-n-c sticker while shooting at a sub .4 second split. While my targets may not be pretty that is good enough to provide an adequate defense.

Now for how to get there. First, you'll want to blacken your sights and used targets that are basically black. I'm fortunate that in my area the classic B-27 target is perfectly legal. IF this target isn't legal in your area I would suggest a can of black spray paint on an NRA 50 yard slow fire target. Next step is to find an indoor range that has the overheads lights missing or turned off so you are holding your gun in a bit of a dark tunnel. BTW, this is typical for ranges in my area. All this should end up making it near impossible for you to see the sights on your 640, if not try sunglasses. Once you are at the point where seeing the sights is a real struggle you are ready for the next step. That is shooting the gun a lot and learning how to "point" so that you get good hits with your chosen ammunition. BTW, Speer usually has a companion practice load to the Gold Dots under the Lawman brand, stock up on it so you can reduce your practice costs. Then it's simply a matter of practicing until you hit what you are pointing at automatically.

It's not just you. I experience a similar thing in my M36. The GDHP is every bit as accurate in my snub as Remington's LHP; both shoot tight groups but the former consistently impacts 1-2" low on the target (I use a center hold as opposed to a 6 o'clock hold, however). This leads me to believe that older J-frame sights were indeed regulated for 158 gr. ammo.

This is entirely subjective, but I've noticed no perceptible difference in felt recoil between the GDHP and Remington's version of the "FBI load." You might want to give it a try and see if your particular 640 "likes" it, or you can modify your sight picture and/or your POA until the Gold Dots strike closer to your desired POI if you'd prefer to stick with that load.

CoMF said:

It's not just you. I experience a similar thing in my M36. The GDHP is every bit as accurate in my snub as Remington's LHP; both shoot tight groups but the former consistently impacts 1-2" low on the target (I use a center hold as opposed to a 6 o'clock hold, however). This leads me to believe that older J-frame sights were indeed regulated for 158 gr. ammo.

This is entirely subjective, but I've noticed no perceptible difference in felt recoil between the GDHP and Remington's version of the "FBI load." You might want to give it a try and see if your particular 640 "likes" it, or you can modify your sight picture and/or your POA until the Gold Dots strike closer to your desired POI if you'd prefer to stick with that load.

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At which range does the bullet strike only 1-2 inches low? Are you pretty close to the target?

If so, holding just a bit higher should compensate. At 25 yards, is the bullet impact lower?

Heavier, slower bullets typically impact higher on the target than lighter, faster bullets due to the faster bullet departing the barrel quicker (and lower on the muzzle rise).

I've no clue on current manufacturing practices, the older snubbies had higher sights than really necessary and owners were kinda expected to file them to fit their needs.

You might try ignoring the rear sight and just watch the front sight. If the sight is slightly above the rear of the frame/rear sight notch and the weapon is at eye level, the bullet should be where the front sight is.

I have the 642-1 in .38spl and the 135 grain +P speer gold dot on order. I'll let you know how it works for me. I' have several J frames I may try.. from a 2012 new 642 to a 1954 pre 36 and pre 42 so I will try them all.
Mike

Texas Star said:

At which range does the bullet strike only 1-2 inches low? Are you pretty close to the target?

If so, holding just a bit higher should compensate. At 25 yards, is the bullet impact lower?

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To answer your first question, 7 yards. Why would I want to compensate when I can just use the bullet weight that shoots precisely where I aim my sights?

Also, before I answer your second question, may I ask for what earthly reason would I ever need to take a 25 yard shot with a Chief's Special? I mean no disrespect. I'm just puzzled as to why you're implying that I'm not giving the GDHP a "fair chance."

This is normal for fixed sights, that's why you are supposed to practice with your carry gun and carry ammo. If you know that ammo hits 3" low in your revolver you are supposed to aim 3" higher. That just the way it is with all fixed sights.

I like the FBI Load but my M442 is scary accurate with the 135gr Gold Dot ammo so that's what it gets. It also hits low in my revolver and I would expect it to since S&W fixed sight .38 Specials are still sighted in at the factory with 158gr ammo.

A "6 o'clock" hold with my 642-1 (no-lock, Mid-2008 production) shooting the 135+p Gold Dot is a dead center hit at 20 feet. 158 grain loads usually shoot 1-2 inches higher for me at that distance. I would consider both to be plenty accurate at 25 feet, assuming I can do my part.

I have fired a couple boxes of 148 grain Fiocchi wadcutters in the 642 and they were all over the place. The barrel must not have stabilized the bullet. That's the only load the gun hasn't liked.

I was shooting at 7 yards. I figured with a double action only gun in a J Frame platform that was a fair test. I suspect at some point in the last 15 years or so S&W changed the front sight height to better match the light bullet weights that have become popular in these type guns. My gun dates from 1994.
I'll try it again with some 158 gr. FBI loads and if they don't group well I'll just pull the front sight up a little higher in the notch when I take a sight picture.
I suppose a set of Crimson Trace laser grips would also solve the problem although at some expense.

After watching some of the Youtube tests I decided to switch the defense loads in my .38's to the 135gr GD short barrel bullet from the 158gr LHP that I have been using. I can buy a box of a 100 of these bullets by Speer for the same price as 20 rounds of their loaded ammo so I go that rout with hand loads vrs factory loads.

Looking to at least match factory velocity I assembled my loads using 7.0 grs of AA#5 in Winchester cases lit by WSP primers and headed to the indoor range with my recently purchased 2" S&W m10. I felt the loads shot well and didn't have any of the low point of impact described by the previous posters. I fired the first 6 rounds at 10yds and and then moved the target back to 25 yds for the next 6. Results shown in the targets shown below.

I think the moral of this story is don't mess with Steve and his K frame snubbie.. Nice shooting!

Steve C said:

I can buy a box of a 100 of these bullets by Speer for the same price as 20 rounds of their loaded ammo so I go that rout with hand loads vrs factory loads.

Looking to at least match factory velocity I assembled my loads using 7.0 grs of AA#5 in Winchester cases lit by WSP primers and headed to the indoor range with my recently purchased 2" S&W m10. I felt the loads shot well and didn't have any of the low point of impact described by the previous posters. I fired the first 6 rounds at 10yds and and then moved the target back to 25 yds for the next 6. Results shown in the targets shown below.

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Steve,
Did you send those rounds over a chrono? I did some work trying to replicate the 135gr Speer load also. I got almost the same exact results you did but I am using a charge of 6.8gr AA#5 instead. I found not only is the felt recoil and velocity is the same as the factory ammo but the type of recoil is the same too. I think AA#5 is the perfect powder for replicating that Speer load.

Just a note, if you want to replicate the 135gr Short Barrel .357 Magnum load give 8.8gr Power Pistol a try. I think it is a good replica of the magnum load. I'm not usually a fan of Power Pistol but what works, works...

Did you send those rounds over a chrono? I did some work trying to replicate the 135gr Speer load also. I got almost the same exact results you did but I am using a charge of 6.8gr AA#5 instead.

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Have not had a chance to run them over the chrono. Really didn't do any work up on this one as I wanted to ensure velocity at or slightly above factory load. Just used the maximum AA5 load that Speer listed velocity at just slightly over the factory load out of a M10 2" test pistol in their #14 manual. Load turned out accurate. The bullet is credited with providing the majority of a rounds accuracy and Speer makes good bullets so I figured the odds where with me regarding accuracy.

Steve C said:

Looking to at least match factory velocity I assembled my loads using 7.0 grs of AA#5 in Winchester cases lit by WSP primers and headed to the indoor range with my recently purchased 2" S&W m10. I felt the loads shot well and didn't have any of the low point of impact described by the previous posters.

[Emphasis Mine]

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This reiterates the point that you should stick with the load that works well with your particular firearm.

Nicely done shooting, by the way.