Speer 135 Gr SB

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Florida J Frame

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I emailed Speer today about using these with a 5 inch barrel. They recommend against it due to over expansion and over penetration. They said the std 125 GR Gold Dot is a better choice. Just thought I'd pass it along.
 
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Frankly I think they're just making stories up depending upon who you talk to on what day. If you are talking about .38 spl GDSB in a longer barrel handgun you MAY get the velocity up to what a .357 mag out of a 2" will be. Since the bullets are the same all you will have is something closer to the more powerful .357 mag in 135gr JHP SB load when shooting out of a 5 or 6 inch revolver. The .38 spl 135gr SB doesn't get a lot of expansion at the modest velocity it makes from a 2" snub anyway. As to extra penetration...well there's usually an inverse relationship between expanslion and penetration, so again it still sounds like a story.

The Speer SB 135gr in .357 mag runs about 130 fps faster than the .38 spl load.

GD38_357SB_zpsee20e8e1.jpg
 
Steve,
Where did you locate the information that the bullets are the same between the .38 and the .357?
 
You say Speer told you that, Really??

Well, when Speer developed that round for the NYPD they told them they could also use the same load for the few officers who still carried a 4" service revolver.

To prove my point further, the sane exact bullet is used in Speer SB .357 Magnum load which is rated @130 fps more then the .38 Special load. I highly doubt the slightly longer barrel will generate more than an additional 130 fps with the .38 Special load. The SB Speer load is just fine in a longer barrel .38 Special... (just like Steve said above)
 
Florida J Frame said:
Steve,
Where did you locate the information that the bullets are the same between the .38 and the .357?
Click to expand...

If you buy Speer 135gr SB Gold Dot bullets for handloading they only offer one type, and its not specified for .38 spl or .357 mag. The data in their loading manual also doesn't specify a different .357 135gr gold dot for .38 spl vrs .357 mag.

It makes no sense for a company to load different bullet types of the same weight in their factory loads for the two calibers and not offer both types to the hand loading customer. The logical conclusion is there is only one type of .357" diameter 135gr Gold Dot bullet being produced by Speer for use in both cartridges.

An example of a manufacturer using different type bullets for the 2 cartridges is Remington which sells their brass jacketed 125gr Golden Saber bullets to hand loaders. The 2 different types, one designated for the .357 mag and the other for the .38 spl, the .38 spl bullet having a wider opening and deeper hollow than the bullet designed for the .357 mag.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
You say Speer told you that, Really??

Well, when Speer developed that round for the NYPD they told them they could also use the same load for the few officers who still carried a 4" service revolver.

To prove my point further, the sane exact bullet is used in Speer SB .357 Magnum load which is rated @130 fps more then the .38 Special load. I highly doubt the slightly longer barrel will generate more than an additional 130 fps with the .38 Special load. The SB Speer load is just fine in a longer barrel .38 Special... (just like Steve said above)
Click to expand...

Here's the answer to my email to Speer:

Jim: expect over-expansion and over-penetration from the higher velocity of the 5" barrel, I would not suggest the use of the SB in barrels longer than 4".
 
Florida J Frame said:
Here's the answer to my email to Speer:

Jim: expect over-expansion and over-penetration from the higher velocity of the 5" barrel, I would not suggest the use of the SB in barrels longer than 4".
Click to expand...

which is probably equivalent to: " Gee Jim, we never tested it in a 5" barrel, only 4", so I can't give you any other official answer than to just say ...."
 
"They recommend against it due to over expansion and over penetration."

Over expansion and over penetration sounds good to me! If it was one or the other, I would need to make a decision. I would be happy to take both.
As has been noted above, the idea that a couple of inches of extra barrel length in a .38 Spec will cause a round that just meets FBI minimum penetration in a 2 in barrel will now go through anything encountered while making too big a hole seems incredible. The new "worlds most powerful handgun"! That could save my day.

Rick
 
Personally, I have complete confidence in that ammo whether it be fired from a 2" or a 5" Barrel.
Regards, Pete
 
I've always wondered how much of these newer whizbang loads is hype & how much is real. When they say specially formulated powders to give higher velocity & less muzzle flash in snub barrels-- that part I believe, I do that handloading just by using a fast powder instead of a slower powder. But when it comes to the bullet being specially designed to open at lower snub velocities.... that's when I start smelling something. Esp in .357 bullets-- do they manufacture a special JHP bullet for 38 snub velocity, another for long-barrel 38's, and yet another for 357's? When you look at the bullet catalog, all the manufacturers just show bullet weight & configuration, NOT designed-for velocities.
I don't care for one load for practice & another for carrying. I handload an old-fangled Speer lead SWC-HP at full service power level for my own non-plus-P version of the "FBI load" for all my shooting. If I didn't handload, I'd buy the factory equivalent from Remington or whoever. I must admit that I have some whizbang JHP loads for my Ruger LCP (at about a buck a round), since IMHO the standard 380 ball ammo isn't much of a stopper & since i don't shoot it enough to want to mess with handloading for it.
 
hotrod150 said:
I've always wondered how much of these newer whizbang loads is hype & how much is real. When they say specially formulated powders to give higher velocity & less muzzle flash in snub barrels-- that part I believe, I do that handloading just by using a fast powder instead of a slower powder. But when it comes to the bullet being specially designed to open at lower snub velocities.... that's when I start smelling something. Esp in .357 bullets-- do they manufacture a special JHP bullet for 38 snub velocity, another for long-barrel 38's, and yet another for 357's? When you look at the bullet catalog, all the manufacturers just show bullet weight & configuration, NOT designed-for velocities.
I don't care for one load for practice & another for carrying. I handload an old-fangled Speer lead SWC-HP at full service power level for my own non-plus-P version of the "FBI load" for all my shooting. If I didn't handload, I'd buy the factory equivalent from Remington or whoever. I must admit that I have some whizbang JHP loads for my Ruger LCP (at about a buck a round), since IMHO the standard 380 ball ammo isn't much of a stopper & since i don't shoot it enough to want to mess with handloading for it.
Click to expand...
According to Speer their 135gr bullet was specifically designed to reliably expand at as low as 800 fps for use in a short barrel handgun where lower velocities are the normal. They do not have 2 different 135gr bullets. The same bullet is used for their SB .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum loads. That's why what the email claims makes no sense...
 
IMHO if it will expand at 800 out of a 38 snubby, it will likely fail & come apart at 1200 (?) out of a longer-barrelled 357 magnum. You can't have it both ways, aka "there ain't no free lunch".
 
hotrod150 said:
IMHO if it will expand at 800 out of a 38 snubby, it will likely fail & come apart at 1200 (?) out of a longer-barrelled 357 magnum. You can't have it both ways, aka "there ain't no free lunch".
Click to expand...

Very true. However, what's unusual about Gold Dots in general is that because they're a bonded design, they tend to be a little more forgiving about being overdriven (i.e. they won't shed weight or petals as easily) though I wouldn't exactly call their performance at hyper velocities "optimal" (they have a tendency to under penetrate). Like you, though, I'm quite happy sticking with the "old technology" LHP.

For what it's worth, the .357 iteration of the Short Barrel load is barely pushing 1000 FPS from a 2" vented test barrel according to ATK.
 
"For what it's worth, the .357 iteration of the Short Barrel load is barely pushing 1000 FPS from a 2" vented test barrel according to ATK."

Which is likely about what the .38 plus P version would get out of a 5 in barrel.
When it comes to terminal ballistics, the bullet likely doesn't care how it got up to speed!

Rick.
 
I've shot a lot of these.I'll have to agree that they'll be fine from the longer barrel. They are a bonded bullet and even if they "over expand" (didn't know there was such a thing:p) they won't break up. Heavy enough for the desired penetration too.
They work fine in a custom tuned Mod.10 HB for me.It's a 4 inch,but shouldn't make that much difference.
 
After reading through this interesting thread I emailed Speer again and this is what I came away with. The .38 +p and 357 are both below 1000FPS with the 135 SB bullet out of a 2" barrel. The 38+P with the 125 hits 945 out of a 4" and the 357 out of a 4" hits 1450. If you drive the 135 grain Gold Dot bullet too fast the petals bend back against the bullet which they call "over-expansion" and the bullet over-penetrates much like a FMJ. This is the reason they do not recommend the SB load in barrels over 4". I think a lot of the misunderstanding was with the terminology. I wouldn't call that over-expansion but Speer does. After it's all said and done, I plan to load the 5" with 125 Gr Personal Protection and the snubs with 135 Gr SB. Thanks for all the input. This forum is always interesting.
 
Florida J Frame said:
After reading through this interesting thread I emailed Speer again and this is what I came away with. The .38 +p and 357 are both below 1000FPS with the 135 SB bullet out of a 2" barrel. The 38+P with the 125 hits 945 out of a 4" and the 357 out of a 4" hits 1450....
Click to expand...

Speer says their 357 load does 1450 fps out of a 4" but less than 1000 from a 2"? It loses over 450 fps (over 30 percent)? I am sceptical (to say the least).
 
I have a Speer LE poster they put out a year or two ago, comparing the various calibers penetration results in each of the FBI test categories and they show the 38 135+P out of a SW640 as having a velocity of 860 fps while the 125gr 357 Mag out of a M65 (no bbl length) is clocked at 1189 - presuming the 65 is a 3" I don't see how they claim 1450 from a 4".
 
hotrod150 said:
Speer says their 357 load does 1450 fps out of a 4" but less than 1000 from a 2"? It loses over 450 fps (over 30 percent)? I am sceptical (to say the least).
Click to expand...
You're reading the numbers a little off. They said the Short Barrel 135gr load does just under 1,000 fps from a 2" barrel and their "normal" 125gr load does 1,450 from a 4" barrel. both rounds are very different. The short barrel load is intentionally designed to limit the velocities because the ammo is meant for those 12oz Airlite J frames S&W is making.

They are talking you about 2 different loads...
 
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