38 Special vs 380 acp (wound balistics)

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Bill ch

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I have read in a couple places that a 380 from a 3.5 inch barrel is wound balisticly more effective then a 38 spcl from a 2 inch barrel.

I have a couple 380s that I enjoy shooting but I find it difficult to believe that a round (any standard pressure round) from the 380 is going to be more effective then a round (any standard pressure round) from my model 60 38.
 
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The best answer that I can give is that gun writer Massad Ayoob shot a number of pigs in a slaughterhouse some years ago. He used a snub .38 and a .380.

The .38 penetrated their skulls much better.

If Ayoob sees this, he may tell us which ammo and guns he used. I'm pretty sure the snub.38 was an S&W and I think the .380 was a PPK/S or a Beretta.

I've thought a lot over the years about small defense guns, and I keep coming back to a three-inch barrelled S&W .38. That would add some 75 FPS to the hot Buffalo Bore load cited above. The Ruger SP-101 in .357 Magnum would be even more powerful, for those who can control it with full loads. With 140-145 grain bullets in .357, you're looking at about 1200 FPS from a three inch bbl.

But even with a true snub like your fine little M-60, I'd bet on it over the .380. And I think the revolver tends to be more reliable in these small guns, too. However, many find the .380 auto easier to shoot well.
 
Good posts. :)

I've worked on many homicide cases in which .380s and snub .38 Specials were used. Here are some takeaways from those that I've reviewed:


  • No person ever hit in the brain/spinal cord or heart/aorta in these cases with either a .38 Special or a .380 of any sort ever continued aggressive action beyond the moment of that hit. (BTW, spinal cord hits are incredibly rare and brain hits are rare - the reports of these are that the person went down like a light that was switched off. Heart/aorta hits are common and witness reports are that these result in an immediate cessation of aggressive action, but the person sometimes remained on his feet for up to a minute. Note that the brain and arms are above the heart/aorta, so they would be immediately affected by the loss of pressure delivering oxygenated blood, unlike the legs.)
  • No .380 ball round in these cases ever failed to penetrate sufficiently to hit these aforementioned vitals. (One such ball round actually overpenetrated and likely hit another person, but that hit was to the first target's calf, so that's not particularly indicative of too much penetrative power in .380 ball.) Same with .38 Special ball, which will overpenetrate even from a snub and still have a lot of energy - might be worth considering at least LSWCs to minimize danger of overpenetration.
  • In three shootings, .380 JHP rounds that were properly aimed to hit the aformentioned vitals failed to penetrate adequately to do so.
  • In .38 Special snub performance, no hollowpoints in these cases were ever described as having opened beyond "moderate deformation" of the projectile. (None of these hollowpoint shooting cases involved "modern" JHPs, such as the Winchester PDX1 or Speer short barrel Gold Dot bullets.)
Tastes great/less filling - your choice.

cheers, erich (carrying a tiny Ruger LCP with Buffalo Bore's psychotic ".380 +P" 95-gr ball - good for just south of 1100 fps from that gun)
 
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From what I've read there is currently no SAMMI standard for a +P load in .380 (someone pls. correct me if I'm wrong) so I'd be careful about using that in any of my guns.
 
Quite right: no SAAMI spec exists, which is why I put the quotation marks around the caliber in my post. I'm happy using it in my locked-breech Ruger, tho I'm sure Ruger would never endorse such.

shocker, I've seen dead-right-there one-shot kill cases with .22 LR 40-grain solids from small handguns. I've also seen a pile of cases where that did not happen. "Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen; everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins."
 
It really comes down to how the bullet expands as to if it is good or bad.
Some say to use a FMJ in a 380 for maximum penetration and some say with the new "High quality" bullets the JHP is the way to go.

A 380, 90,95 or 102gr Jhp that opens up and gets 10" of penetration or more is a lot better than a 158gr 38 spl, LRN that just puts a small hole in someone.

There are good and bad bullets in every caliber and some times even the very best bullet,for some reason or another will not expand or work as it should.

Some say bigger is better............and some say a .22 is better than nothing at all.
 
The 38 Special has much more potential and offers more options than the 380 ever will. But the 380 is often under-rated, and sometimes dismissed out of hand, when it shouldn't be.

I'd take a 38 Special every time in this comparison and carry a DAO SP101 in 357 loaded with "light" magnum rounds that perform like a 38 Special +P+. Winchester Q4204 110gr JHP.

My Kel-Tec P3AT with the right loads will get the job done too. If I can hit what I'm aiming at.
 
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While researching 38 sp. I found a description of the old British 38/200, meaning 200 gr. bullet. Seems that this weight slug is marginally stabilized at short barrel velocities. Hence, the bullet will tumble after entering the 'target'. That would hurt.
 
A high velosity 148gr HBwc bullet loaded "Backwards" will also flip after a short distance and Keyhole.
This is a "Specialty Load" that sometimes gets little penetration or might get 11 inches........never know which way the lead will fold........in or out.
 
Give me a good .38spl +P any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I consider .38spl +P and 9x19 the minimum cartridges for self defense in the revolver and semi auto platforms, respectively.

Usually my 642 is loaded with Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP +P, though I also have a stock of the excellent CCI/Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots.
 
I've got a 380 Ruger LCP "mouse gun", and used to carry it with Speer gold dot jhp's. Got to thinking it wasn't enough gun to bet my life on, so I bought one (then several more) j-frame S&W 38's. After some thought, I decided I'd rather have for-sure penetrationa and maybe some expansion rather than maybe expansion and maybe penetration-- so I switched my 38spl carry load from a 110 gr JHP at about 1000 fpm to a 158 gr lead SWC-HP at close to 900 fpm.
I don't carry it much anymore, but I changed the 380 carry load from JHP's to ball since I decided I wanted for-sure penetration ( even with no expansion) rather than iffy penetration and expansion.
Regarding 38 vs 380: I figure the 38 load & the 380 loads are both doing about 900 fps out of the short barrelled guns- the difference being that the 38 is throwing 75% more bullet. Nuff said.
 
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Erich is 100% correct the .380 ACP and .32 ACP pistols are best served by shooting full metal jacket or "ball" ammunition.

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT use hollow point ammunition for personal defense! If you use them, you run the risk of insufficient penetration. Suddenly your well-placed shots didn't break off the attack, and the individual is successfully plunging a knife in your chest. NOT GOOD!

Scott
 
People get too wrapped up in caliber, when shot placement is the key. It doesnt matter a whole lot what caliber you shoot someone with, if you dont hit the right spot to stop them. A
.22 in the face is way more dangerous than a .44mag in the toe. This is why practice with your intended SD weapon is vital. That being said, I personally wouldnt rely on a .22 for defense, because I know my odds are slim of getting a headshot on a guy coming at me with a pipe/knife etc, and I manage to practice quite a bit. On the other hand, either a .38 or a .380 would be fine with me, as a back up or for when you have to carry something smaller than a Shield, because as I said , I practice. The other thing is that range practice is only minimally helpful for SD. You need to go somewhere that you can practice drawing and firing rapidly, shooting from laying on your back and stuff like that, cuz it aint nothing like standing still punching holes in paper
 
jonesy814 said:
People get too wrapped up in caliber, when shot placement is the key. It doesnt matter a whole lot what caliber you shoot someone with, if you dont hit the right spot to stop them. A
.22 in the face is way more dangerous than a .44mag in the toe. This is why practice with your intended SD weapon is vital. That being said, I personally wouldnt rely on a .22 for defense, because I know my odds are slim of getting a headshot on a guy coming at me with a pipe/knife etc, and I manage to practice quite a bit. On the other hand, either a .38 or a .380 would be fine with me, as a back up or for when you have to carry something smaller than a Shield, because as I said , I practice. The other thing is that range practice is only minimally helpful for SD. You need to go somewhere that you can practice drawing and firing rapidly, shooting from laying on your back and stuff like that, cuz it aint nothing like standing still punching holes in paper
Click to expand...

The problem with the .380 ACP is one of diameter, weight and velocity. It really isn't travelling fast enough to penetrate well with the lighter weight bullets of the chambering. The .38 S&W Special has more mass, thus more momentum enhancing penetration. This is why it is best to rely on ball ammunition with the .380. I prefer to rely upon the penetration power of the .38 S&W Special. I want the certainty of reaching the vital organs.

Scott
 
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