I have read in a couple places that a 380 from a 3.5 inch barrel is wound balisticly more effective then a 38 spcl from a 2 inch barrel.

I have a couple 380s that I enjoy shooting but I find it difficult to believe that a round (any standard pressure round) from the 380 is going to be more effective then a round (any standard pressure round) from my model 60 38.

2 loads from Buffalo Bore:

80gr. 380 Auto +P:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=252
Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel - 1235 fps (289 ft. lbs.)




158gr LSWCHP .38 Special +P:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)




Both +P's from the same manufacturer, and while the .380 is moving faster than the .38, the latter is packing more of a wallop. I'd trust a heavy .38 Special over a light .380 any day.

The best answer that I can give is that gun writer Massad Ayoob shot a number of pigs in a slaughterhouse some years ago. He used a snub .38 and a .380.

The .38 penetrated their skulls much better.

If Ayoob sees this, he may tell us which ammo and guns he used. I'm pretty sure the snub.38 was an S&W and I think the .380 was a PPK/S or a Beretta.

I've thought a lot over the years about small defense guns, and I keep coming back to a three-inch barrelled S&W .38. That would add some 75 FPS to the hot Buffalo Bore load cited above. The Ruger SP-101 in .357 Magnum would be even more powerful, for those who can control it with full loads. With 140-145 grain bullets in .357, you're looking at about 1200 FPS from a three inch bbl.

But even with a true snub like your fine little M-60, I'd bet on it over the .380. And I think the revolver tends to be more reliable in these small guns, too. However, many find the .380 auto easier to shoot well.

Energy and penetration are important and the .38 Special will deliver both more than a .380 Auto will.

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SWCA #3437

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwP...e_gdata_player
Warning: gruesome content.

My take:
Handguns are sharp sticks.
The vitals are small targets so stabbing has to be done accurately.
The stick must be reliable.

Good posts.

I've worked on many homicide cases in which .380s and snub .38 Specials were used. Here are some takeaways from those that I've reviewed:

• No person ever hit in the brain/spinal cord or heart/aorta in these cases with either a .38 Special or a .380 of any sort ever continued aggressive action beyond the moment of that hit. (BTW, spinal cord hits are incredibly rare and brain hits are rare - the reports of these are that the person went down like a light that was switched off. Heart/aorta hits are common and witness reports are that these result in an immediate cessation of aggressive action, but the person sometimes remained on his feet for up to a minute. Note that the brain and arms are above the heart/aorta, so they would be immediately affected by the loss of pressure delivering oxygenated blood, unlike the legs.)
• No .380 ball round in these cases ever failed to penetrate sufficiently to hit these aforementioned vitals. (One such ball round actually overpenetrated and likely hit another person, but that hit was to the first target's calf, so that's not particularly indicative of too much penetrative power in .380 ball.) Same with .38 Special ball, which will overpenetrate even from a snub and still have a lot of energy - might be worth considering at least LSWCs to minimize danger of overpenetration.
• In three shootings, .380 JHP rounds that were properly aimed to hit the aformentioned vitals failed to penetrate adequately to do so.
• In .38 Special snub performance, no hollowpoints in these cases were ever described as having opened beyond "moderate deformation" of the projectile. (None of these hollowpoint shooting cases involved "modern" JHPs, such as the Winchester PDX1 or Speer short barrel Gold Dot bullets.)

Tastes great/less filling - your choice.

cheers, erich (carrying a tiny Ruger LCP with Buffalo Bore's psychotic ".380 +P" 95-gr ball - good for just south of 1100 fps from that gun)

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Erich
Can you comment on 22 rim fire homicides?

From what I've read there is currently no SAMMI standard for a +P load in .380 (someone pls. correct me if I'm wrong) so I'd be careful about using that in any of my guns.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Quite right: no SAAMI spec exists, which is why I put the quotation marks around the caliber in my post. I'm happy using it in my locked-breech Ruger, tho I'm sure Ruger would never endorse such.

shocker, I've seen dead-right-there one-shot kill cases with .22 LR 40-grain solids from small handguns. I've also seen a pile of cases where that did not happen. "Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen; everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins."

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It really comes down to how the bullet expands as to if it is good or bad.
Some say to use a FMJ in a 380 for maximum penetration and some say with the new "High quality" bullets the JHP is the way to go.

A 380, 90,95 or 102gr Jhp that opens up and gets 10" of penetration or more is a lot better than a 158gr 38 spl, LRN that just puts a small hole in someone.

There are good and bad bullets in every caliber and some times even the very best bullet,for some reason or another will not expand or work as it should.

Some say bigger is better............and some say a .22 is better than nothing at all.

The 38 Special has much more potential and offers more options than the 380 ever will. But the 380 is often under-rated, and sometimes dismissed out of hand, when it shouldn't be.

I'd take a 38 Special every time in this comparison and carry a DAO SP101 in 357 loaded with "light" magnum rounds that perform like a 38 Special +P+. Winchester Q4204 110gr JHP.

My Kel-Tec P3AT with the right loads will get the job done too. If I can hit what I'm aiming at.

I have never felt "under-gunned" with my Sig 238 loaded with Hornady critical defense 90 gr .380, and yes it is all personal preference.

While researching 38 sp. I found a description of the old British 38/200, meaning 200 gr. bullet. Seems that this weight slug is marginally stabilized at short barrel velocities. Hence, the bullet will tumble after entering the 'target'. That would hurt.

A high velosity 148gr HBwc bullet loaded "Backwards" will also flip after a short distance and Keyhole.
This is a "Specialty Load" that sometimes gets little penetration or might get 11 inches........never know which way the lead will fold........in or out.

Give me a good .38spl +P any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I consider .38spl +P and 9x19 the minimum cartridges for self defense in the revolver and semi auto platforms, respectively.

Usually my 642 is loaded with Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP +P, though I also have a stock of the excellent CCI/Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots.

I've got a 380 Ruger LCP "mouse gun", and used to carry it with Speer gold dot jhp's. Got to thinking it wasn't enough gun to bet my life on, so I bought one (then several more) j-frame S&W 38's. After some thought, I decided I'd rather have for-sure penetrationa and maybe some expansion rather than maybe expansion and maybe penetration-- so I switched my 38spl carry load from a 110 gr JHP at about 1000 fpm to a 158 gr lead SWC-HP at close to 900 fpm.
I don't carry it much anymore, but I changed the 380 carry load from JHP's to ball since I decided I wanted for-sure penetration ( even with no expansion) rather than iffy penetration and expansion.
Regarding 38 vs 380: I figure the 38 load & the 380 loads are both doing about 900 fps out of the short barrelled guns- the difference being that the 38 is throwing 75% more bullet. Nuff said.

Here is a good writeup by Dr.Gary K. Roberts who studies gunshot wounds for military and LE and is considered an expert in the field of modern wound ballistics.

BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp - M4Carbine.net Forums

His qualifications can be found here: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

Erich is 100% correct the .380 ACP and .32 ACP pistols are best served by shooting full metal jacket or "ball" ammunition.

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT use hollow point ammunition for personal defense! If you use them, you run the risk of insufficient penetration. Suddenly your well-placed shots didn't break off the attack, and the individual is successfully plunging a knife in your chest. NOT GOOD!

Scott

People get too wrapped up in caliber, when shot placement is the key. It doesnt matter a whole lot what caliber you shoot someone with, if you dont hit the right spot to stop them. A
.22 in the face is way more dangerous than a .44mag in the toe. This is why practice with your intended SD weapon is vital. That being said, I personally wouldnt rely on a .22 for defense, because I know my odds are slim of getting a headshot on a guy coming at me with a pipe/knife etc, and I manage to practice quite a bit. On the other hand, either a .38 or a .380 would be fine with me, as a back up or for when you have to carry something smaller than a Shield, because as I said , I practice. The other thing is that range practice is only minimally helpful for SD. You need to go somewhere that you can practice drawing and firing rapidly, shooting from laying on your back and stuff like that, cuz it aint nothing like standing still punching holes in paper

The problem with the .380 ACP is one of diameter, weight and velocity. It really isn't travelling fast enough to penetrate well with the lighter weight bullets of the chambering. The .38 S&W Special has more mass, thus more momentum enhancing penetration. This is why it is best to rely on ball ammunition with the .380. I prefer to rely upon the penetration power of the .38 S&W Special. I want the certainty of reaching the vital organs.

Scott

Jerry Miculek's 2 liter bottle shots video made a believer out of me on the efficacy of .380 *Hornady Critical Defense over ball ammo. (*HCD if memory serves correctly.)

There isn't a .380 hollow point in existence worth carrying, unless you want to shoot jackrabbits. The cartridge doesn't have enough power, the bullets not enough weight and sectional density, to both expand and penetrate.

I suppose it depends on which camp you are in; light and fast or heavy and slow. I personally like BB's 158 grain HEAVY +P 38 Special because it' s HEAVY & FAST. With just under 400 ft/lbs of ME I think it is a better choice for SD. IMHO the .380 is right on the fence and I personally like a bit more reassurance in a SD cartridge.

I am sure there are lots of bad guys who have fallen to the.380 acp but the real purpose of shooting a BG is to STOP the THREAT as fast as possible - not just to have them die later on. With almost 400 ft/lbs of ME from a 2" Chief's Special and the HEAVY BB's I feel that is the better package for me. YMMV.

I was in Law Enforcement 35 years. I have no clue how many shootings I helped work, way more than a hundred and way less than a thousand. With the perfect shot hitting exactly the right place anything .380 and up will end a fight. It's those not exactly shot in the exact best spot shootings that you have to look at. I'd never carry less than a 9mm/38 Spl with a good hollow point round. Both give good penetration and decent expansion. I don't carry short barrel guns. The barrel is not hard to hide. It's the rest of the gun that sticks out. I currently carry a M19/.357 with a 4" barrel or an older M59/9mm. I don't pick a carry gun because it's the smallest easiest gun to carry and I'll guarantee you that I never go unarmed.

I've carried the old .38 Special FBI load or its equivalent for seventeen years. I've done that because of its proven record on the street, from both four- and two-inch barrels, for several decades.

It's what I'm comfortable carrying, so I do. I don't like to go below .38 Special for self defense. I've read a lot of the research and pros and cons. I know bullet placement is the vital factor. I just have more confidence in a bigger, heavier, soft-lead hollowpoint bullet.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Biggest problems with 380 is inconsistent penetration

water will make almost anything expand. And I've never heard of water bottles attacking anyone

Just buy the appropriate round of Underwood ammo and you will feel adequately armed with either caliber.

It's not scientific, and it's not people, but I used to carry a .380 routinely, and quit because barn raiding critters often just ran off when shot. I've found a warm .38 158gr semiwadcutter to be a much better critter stopper, often penetrating end-to-end.

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Science plus Art

Just want to let you know that the "old" FBI Load is NOT the same as todays anemic one. The current Remington,Federal and Winchester versions are reduced 10 - 12 % and are about 100 - 120 fps slower than they were. I might suggest either using well stored older ammo or use the Buffalo Bore version which is excellent and better than the Big 3 ever were. This is not just my opinion, but my Chronograph tested results. Just want you to be aware.

People get too wrapped up in shot placement. Civilian self defense shootings tend to be at very short range, where the use of the sights is impossible.

Agreed. Additionally, flat point FMJ. Meplat is your friend.

Underwood makes a good one too. Standard pressure and plus p

IMO velocity isn't everything. All the velocity in the world won't mean a darn thing unless you hit what you shoot at. It's true today as it was 3 years ago when this thread was posted.Why do so many jump on the new company bandwagon just because they claim super high velocities? No matter which gun you choose, load it with the ammo that's accurate in your gun.

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SWCA #3437

Agree. that's why I point-shoot my carry revolvers.


For the issue of penetration:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...duct_list&c=60

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an actual conservative

It's worth taking a look at the Shooting the Bull .380 tests. No opinions, just repeatable facts and some surprising results. He found any quality .380 round loaded with the Hornady XTP bullet was the best choice. He also found some highly regarded ammo didn't get the job done.

I have read with interest the above 35 posts. The people who believe a 380ACP has not enough penetration need to YouTube some videos. With fmj ammo it often out penetrates the 357Mag with hollow point ammunition. A common theme "I have carried_______________ caliber with ___________ ammo for __________ number of years with no complaints" does not tell us much because it was never used. I have hunted big game for decades and was an elk guide for a number of years. I have over 100 projectiles recovered from downed game. I have documented every bullet at to distance shot, caliber, bullet weight and manufacture, and wound track. My great mistake was I never documented my handgun trials. Often when taking an animal, I would immediately prop him up and shoot his carcass with whatever handgun I was carrying to test bullet expansion. I probably did this 30 to 40 times. I recovered many bullets but did not document results as it was not the handgun that took the game. Dumb dumb. A few times I did and in archives you will find recovered bullets taken from an antelope I shot with a 380 ACP. I do remember the 2 mule deer I tested a snub nosed 38 Special using 110 grain hp ammo failed to exit on a broadside lung shot. I used a Ruger LCP with Buffalo Bore 95 grn fmj ammo to shoot through both sides and exit a mid sized mule deer's lung cavity. It was late winter and he had a heavy winter coat. An interesting note about the above story, that deer had stopped a Winchester 180 grain bullet from a 30-06 just minutes before.

For those who carry a 380 watch this guys videos, he has done the testing and had some surprising results, this is the final wrap up but he has the test on his channel:

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686, Shield 9MM & 642

You might want to look at the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan as two data points.

Check out this video:

What kinda qualifier is that? A full metal jacket 380 will penetrate mote than a 357? So will a 9 mm or a 50 blog. But I bet a Fmj 357 will out penetrate a 380 funk. Apple's to bananas

I certainly hope you don't limit your training to point shooting only. Having read about some recent shootouts, it was obvious that the person involved was most successful when he started looking at the sights. Point shooting has its place, but isn't where someone should stop.

I had watched the video before now. Very interesting.

I would be distrustful of anything you read in most any gun rag these days. Those people are pandering to the advertisers, who sell guns and ammo. It wasn't, by any chance, an article about a .380 pistol or .380 ammo, was it?

Notice how inferior calibers are touted as "just as good as" the next thing up? For example, you often read that with premium loads, a 9mm is "just as good as" a .40 or .45. In fact, now that I think of it, the tag line these days is that all of the usual defense calibers (9mm, .357 SIG, .40) are "just as good as a .45."

No one EVER says that their pet load is "just as good as a .380." The very idea is ludicrous.

Everything is a compromise, and some people do not like to be inconvenienced. Often, such calibers/guns as .380s are touted because the person doing so carries one. And that is often because he likes the idea of being "armed," but does not like the perceived inconvenience of carrying the proper tool for the job.

The year that SIG Sauer introduced as new its little Colt Mustang copy, called the SIG Sauer 238, in .380 caliber, I happened to be looking at one right next to the famous firearms trainer Ken Hackathorn. I could not resist asking him his thoughts. His response was, "it looks like a pistol for someone who really doesn't need a pistol."

Some might find this interesting concerning a comparison of .380 acp. load ballistics in some of the most popular factory loads.
According to the reviewer and his testing, Precision One ammo using Hornady's XTP 90 gr.HP bullet penetrated 12.75 inches in ballistic ordinace gel and 4 layers of Denim and expanded reliably to between 10 and 11mm 100% of the time retaining almost all of it's weight. The video is impressive. Pretty good in my opinion.
Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull

The point I failed to make is for those who believe the 380 will not penetrate enough to make it a good defensive round. I know of nobody who does not consider the 357 Magnum an excellent defensive round, with far more penetration than necessary. Yet these same people who believe the 380, that has greater penetration, and yet it does not have enough penetration? This was the point I was unsuccessfully attempting to make. I am not comparing effectiveness of either caliber, just inches of penetration.

Although it varies with individuals, there is also the psychological effect of being shot. When one of my friends was shot, I believe it was his third time, he didn't realize it until he discovered he was leaking. He was shot in the side. And he was a former Marine.

I know from one of my cases that a guy took a shot in the arm with a .22. He was screaming and flopping on the ground like a fish out of water.

Yeah, but if you can't count on it...which you can't...

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It's an old idea. The Devel bullet was patented in 1992.



When bullets penetrate tissue or gelatin they create both a permanent crush cavity and a temporary cavity. Ballistic gelatin is damaged by the formation and collapse of the temporary cavity, but at pistol velocities temporary cavity is not a significant wounding factor. MAC is misinterpreting the results by measuring the temporary cavity effects rather than the permanent cavity.

[QUOTE=shawn mccarver;138913177

The year that SIG Sauer introduced as new its little Colt Mustang copy, called the SIG Sauer 238, in .380 caliber, I happened to be looking at one right next to the famous firearms trainer Ken Hackathorn. I could not resist asking him his thoughts. His response was, "it looks like a pistol for someone who really doesn't need a pistol."

[/QUOTE]

I own one but I like the response. Larry