.38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load

[JWintergreen]

One could go down a very deep rabbit hole on this topic. This ol' FBI load had been loaded at various velocities by the big three over the years. Some versions have worked better than others.

The latest Federal batch (.38G) works very well out of a four inch barrel. Here is a feller on youtube that got an average of 950fps out of a four inch 686. (Skip to the 10 minute mark).
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjqgfLxblyg&t=780s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjqgfLxblyg&t=780s[/ame]

 

[agent00]

Thanks a lot for the further replies guys. Very intersting stuff.

Also a big thanks to JWintergreen for the neat testing video.


@all I also advice to consider some 38 special 125 grain ammo as potential self defense load

I did some research and found out the a 125 sjhp load from magtech would be easily available.

A load from remington called REM 23771 would also be on backorder.

Do we have some users here that experiece with the 125 grain sjhp loads from remington and magtech?

 

[Matt_X]

Re: Magtech. Not a manufacturer I would rely on for a defensive or competition loads. See my post here


Re: using a cartridge with a lighter weight bullet.
The concept is that a lighter projectilve can be propelled faster and therefore will be more likely to expand. The drawback is that a lighter bullet carries less momentum. So its a tradeoff. In a non +P this could be worth it, especially with a short barrel. But it is a tradeoff.


Also, especially in revolver, a lighter bullet may change the point of impact (lower).



Might want to look at Brassfetcher.com for some of the science, older Paul Harrell videos for some of his experiments and discussion, and the Lucky Gunner Laboratory testing for some comparisons. If you are doing police work you will have slightly different needs than a citizen. Keep that in mind when reading about FBI and military testing. As citizens we don't shoot generally through things at maybe threats.

 

[WR Moore]

IF whoever loads Remington now keeps the original material specifications, the Remington 125 gr SJHP +P should expand well. The original +P loads expanded well, penetration was at the low end of FBI requirements, just right for self defense use.

At typical SD range, any change of POI is irrelevant. My experience was about 3 inches low at 25 yards. Raise your point of aim slightly.

As noted in at least one other thread, tests in the new easy to use "ballistic gel" don't produce the same results as tests in calibrated 10% actual ballistic gelatin. Does allow you to compare various loads. Somebody did tests using both and published the differences, but I don't recall what they were.

 

[JWintergreen]

The old Remington 125 grain SJHP .38 Special +P loading is fantastic out of a four inch barrel. For snubbies, the Golden Saber 125 grain "compact" loading is a very underrated round.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1YTscBaPPc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1YTscBaPPc[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRUSjvfRcwY&t=323s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRUSjvfRcwY&t=323s[/ame]

 

[agent00]

Thanks a lot for the further information guys.

@JWintergreen Thanks for posting another interesting test video.

 

[agent00]

Sorry for the the double post. What do you guys think about the Federal .38 Special "Train and Protect" LSWC-HP rounds?

That is another type of ammo I came across in my search for some 158 grain loads that migh be worth considering for home defense.

Do you guys have any exeperience/knowlege about that rounds?

 

[Narragansett]

I just came across an old box of Winchester 38 LSWCHP that are labeled " Police ". I think this is from the 70's or 80's. It has been in one of my ammo cans for a long time

 

[chief38]

I think I still have 6-8 boxes of the modern Remington HTP +P 158 grain .38 specials (FBI load) that I bought a few years back. They are OK, but not reliable expanders in most guns - especially carry length guns. To expand, a bullet needs a minimum velocity to do so. You did not list the barrel length in your M27, but in a 4-6" barrel you might have a chance at some expansion. Out of a 2" tube - no way.

When I carried a 2" Chief's Special, I used to carry Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC which in a 2" barrel produce 1,025 ft/sec. Not only are these specs advertised by the company, I have actually verified them with a chronograph as well, many times. Buffalo Bore is pretty much the ONLY company I am aware of that is honest when they rate their ammo performance. They list the performance out of ACTUAL revolvers in specific barrel lengths - not "test barrels". While the recoil is quite stiff in a J frame, in a M27 it should be a powder puff - lol.

 

[agent00]

I still have 6-8 boxes of the modern Remington HTP +P 158 grain .38 specials (FBI load) that I bought a few years back. They are OK, but not reliable expanders in most guns - especially carry length guns. To expand, a bullet needs a minimum velocity to do so. You did not list the barrel length in your M27, but in a 4-6" barrel you might have a chance at some expansion. Out of a 2" tube - no way.

When I carried a 2" Chief's Special, I used to carry Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC which in a 2" barrel produce 1,025 ft/sec. Not only are these specs advertised by the company, I have actually verified them with a chronograph as well, many times. Buffalo Bore is pretty much the ONLY company I am aware of that is honest when they rate their ammo performance. They list the performance out of ACTUAL revolvers in specific barrel lengths - not "test barrels". While the recoil is quite stiff in a J frame, in a M27 it should be a powder puff - lol.

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I forgot to mention the barrel length of my m27. It is a .4-inch model.

Speaking about the barrel lengh. I come across some opinions that heavier 158 grain rounds are better for short barrel lengh while for 4 inch plus range some ligher 38 special loads might be better suited.

in the lighter 38 special balll park I might be a oble to obtain some 125 grain sjhp round.

I am not sure if the opinions available only about the bullet weights and barre lenght have some merrit or not.

Just want to mention it because this opinion does not make much sense to me as a lay person.

As far as I know, there was time when there was a 110 grain JHP load in 38 special (called treasury load), which had quite a good reputation in some tactical settings, but I do not believe it was as effective as the 158 grain load in 38 special..

 

[Matt_X]

I'm not an expert. Not many true experts in this field. At best people can do is relates what our experiences and readings are, and hopefully help each other seperate marketing and misleading information from info that is more likely to be relevant. There's a reason there are many options in the marketplace - one of which is that there is no single product clearly better than the others.

I completely agree with your assessment that it makes little sense that 110 gr is better matched for 4" barrels. In fact, my conclusions are the opposite. I will use a 110 gr HP or FTX in a standard pressure 2" revolver because (a) the 110 is more likely to achieve the velocity needed (b) reduced recoil and quicker follow up. Hornady's Critical Defense seems to be pretty good in this niche (see Lucky Gunner, Paul Harrell, etc) .

You've probably come across the assertion that for a hollow point to expand, one of the requirements is that it hits at sufficient velocity. With a 4" barrel and +P loading, that should be less of an issue.

For you, I would think the availability ought to be an important consideration. If the ammo is so hard to obtain it wll become so precious you won't want to practice with it at all. That's another disadvantage with the 110 gr. It is not easily to find a target or practice cartridge with a 110 gr bullet. Closest is seems to be 125 gr. FMJ.

A few months ago Underwood soft lead SWHP was on sale. Its available in both standard pressure and +P. It ought to be similar to what you were originally asking for. BUT Underwood is a small brand and I didn't mention it earlier because its probably going to be difficult to buy where you are. Its not quite as expensive as Buffalo Bore.

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I forgot to mention the barrel length of my m27. It is a .4-inch model.

Speaking about the barrel lengh. I come across some opinions that heavier 158 grain rounds are better for short barrel lengh while for 4 inch plus range some ligher 38 special loads might be better suited.

in the lighter 38 special balll park I might be a oble to obtain some 125 grain sjhp round.

I am not sure if the opinions available only about the bullet weights and barre lenght have some merrit or not.

Just want to mention it because this opinion does not make much sense to me as a lay person.

As far as I know, there was time when there was a 110 grain JHP load in 38 special (called treasury load), which had quite a good reputation in some tactical settings, but I do not believe it was as effective as the 158 grain load in 38 special..

 

[WR Moore]

OK, we're drifting way back in time here but I guess some history is in order. The "Treasury load" (and some others) was a work around for a "progressive" political concern that shooting criminals with MAGNUM ammunition was cruel and unusual punishment forbidden by law.

The work around for this was to produce ammunition in .38 Special cases, but loaded to higher pressures and to be used ONLY in .357 Magnum firearms. [Yes, we issue .357 firearms, but we only load them with .38 Spl ammunition ] Said ammunition was produced under contract only after hold harmless agreements were signed by the various agencies that used them. Just in case the ammo was used in .38 Spl guns-and it often was. This lead to the development of the +P pressure rating* for several handgun cartridges.

I never used any of this ammunition, but my recollection is that it had some of the issues of the Silvertip round used in the infamous Miami FBI shootout. That is, insufficient penetration in some cases. As pointed out immediately above, this might be compensated for by short barrels.

*And for 9 mm, which got US 9 mm+P up to the ballistic delivery of much European ammunition produced under CIP standards.

 

[BKLooney]

Here ya go

Cheap 38 Special Ammo For Sale - 158 gr +P LSWCHP Federal Law Enforcement Ammunition In Stock - 5f0 rounds

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

As far as I know, there was time when there was a 110 grain JHP load in 38 special (called treasury load), which had quite a good reputation in some tactical settings, but I do not believe it was as effective as the 158 grain load in 38 special..

There are differences because the Treasury Dept...US Secret Service...and the FBI had different criteria for choosing ammunition. The FBI places importance on various factors they feel are most important to their needs...defeating auto glass while not defecting or losing effectiveness is one of the factors. The Treasury didn't use the same criteria.

What any law enforcement agency uses as criteria for their specific purposes may or may not be relevant to an individual citizen. Many agencies choose the same brand of ammo..."Low Bid". They pick a round based upon what they've always done and get the best price or sometimes they'll piggy back on a larger agency's contract for the better price regardless of the round's relevance to their needs.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I never used any of this ammunition, but my recollection is that it had some of the issues of the Silvertip round used in the infamous Miami FBI shootout. That is, insufficient penetration in some cases. As pointed out immediately above, this might be compensated for by short barrels.

The 9mm Silvertip that got a bad rap after the Miami Massacre was unfortunate. The bullet performed exactly as it was designed to do as desired by the FBI. What happened was the bad guy (Platt) the FBI agent shot with the Silvertip was a crossing shot...through his arm rather than a frontal shot. It penetrated exactly as far as designed...destroyed one lung but stopped an inch short of his heart...a fatal wound but not immediately so. If the shot had been a frontal shot it would have struck his heart and would have been immediately fatal or nearly so.

After the event was when the Feebs started doing some serious study into what makes the preferred round for them...and their choice following that were suspect...their 10mm Lite choice for example. Blaming the Silvertip gave them the ability to avoid public disclosure of poor tactics and situational awareness on the parts of some of he agents involved.

 

[BRHP]

I believe that Snidley meant to say the training received by the FBI agents did not enable them to handle the situation better.

 

[WR Moore]

The 9mm Silvertip that got a bad rap after the Miami Massacre was unfortunate. The bullet performed exactly as it was designed to do as desired by the FBI. What happened was the bad guy (Platt) the FBI agent shot with the Silvertip was a crossing shot...through his arm rather than a frontal shot. It penetrated exactly as far as designed...destroyed one lung but stopped an inch short of his heart...a fatal wound but not immediately so. I.

Actually, the round severed the brachial artery. Platt was a dead man walking-and shooting-while bleeding to death. Agent Mireles did a book (FBI Miami Firefight) on the incident that pretty much lays the whole thing out.

 

[agent00]

Sorry for being late. Thanks a lot for the intersting historical information. Was not aware of the origin story of the Treasury load.

It also makes sense what @SnidelyWhiplash said. The requirments for law einforcement ammo does not always coincide with the needs of the average civilian.

As a resident of a appartment tactical pentetration is not important for home defense need. I need effective short range sd load does penetrate enough to do job without the risk of over penetration. Something in the ball park of the 158 grain swc rounds or a 125 grain sjhp should fit the bill perfectly I think.

ps: It is interesting how many not so known loads you can find here in Austria when you just dig deep enough.

I was able to locate some of the classic federal 38g rounds. They are cheaper

 

[sniper]

We have been too much inundated with "Information" that we sometimes overlook the facts: The Lead Semi Wadcutter "FBI" loads of the past are very effective...that's why they are still around. One shot stops are not the rule; far from it! Years of statistics show only about 20% or so of Civilian, including Police, bullets fired in anger actually hit where they are intended to.
Recoil has a real negative effect, and is cumulative. The super-light and compact, less than a pound revolvers and pistols that are in such demand today, even if loaded with mild ammunition, are more than many of us can handle proficiently, and most expanding bullets must reach a predetermined velocity, often in excess of 800 fps. to expand. If one of the super-light guns is loaded with hotter "defense" ammo, the safest person on the block may be the one shot at. I don't advocate a .22 caliber gun except in the case of physical or monetary inability to handle anything heavier, and I feel that the .380, despite its gaining popularity and better rounds for it may be marginal. Just a lot to consider in the tide of "LIGHTER, ONE-SHOT STOP PENETRATION OVERPENETRATION COMFORTABLE CONCEALED CARRY" information we get from "Experts" that we are subjected to from various media. No wonder so many people are confused!

 

[rwsmith]

Instead of starting pistol caliber/load wars the takeaway for Dade, North Hollywood and other shootouts is that agents needed carbines and rifles.

The distances encounted in civilian SD situations aren't the same as LE encounters. A pistol is appropriate because at close range it's feasible to shoot and hit until the threat is stopped. The agents in the big shootouts with pistols could only land a few hits with pistols. Even blasting away with more than a few rounds of buckshot at close range was ineffective.

Use a 158 gr. SWC +P, or a 110 grn JHP whatever works for you. I prefer standard loads with medium weight for caliber bullets in a JHP that's likely to expand and penetrate well.

The FBI, as well as other LE agencies provide valuable information to us civilians, who lack data to make the best choices. But not being an LE agent I tune my needs to what I'm most likely to encounter. I think that TODAY, the advances in technology have increased the effectiveness and reliability of JHPs which is why most LE agencies use them now rather than SWCs. There's nothing wrong or bad about SWCs, if they are a good fit with your philosophies about SD and CC. I also think that the adage, "Carry what you shoot well" applies in any case.