.38 Special Ammo Velocity Comparisons: Historical vs. Modern

[SG-688]

Attached picture of Rem - UMC Hi-Way Master 110 grain 38-44 that was also sold as Peters Highway Patrol.

The 38-44 is in my odd cartridge bin while the Peters belongs to a friend. There's at least one discussion about zinc bullets on the forum. Old American Rifleman articles talk about them in handguns and rifles.

From a 1940 article by Arthur Caswell extolling the virtues of a custom Colt Detective Special:

"Furthermore, while I do not recommend the practice, I
have fired some very heavy loads in the Detective Special,
including the .38-44 cartridge and Remington 110 zinc
bullet, without experiencing any difficulty or painful
recoil."

 

[Doug M.]

Late member Art Doc/Saxon Pig wrote of similar views and experiences a decade or so ago.

 

[Dump1567]

Late member Art Doc/Saxon Pig wrote of similar views and experiences a decade or so ago.

Yeah, his info. always comes up when you search for this topic. Wasn't sure if he was still with us, I guess not.

What actually motivated me to ask AI, was the constant debate about +P ammo in older small frame guns like Det. Spl., Cobra's, J frames, etc. It seems it was probably just done without the "over thinking it" that is common today. And the guns could handle it, as long as it wasn't a steady diet of +P. But most non-shooters including a lot of LEO, probably won't shoot that much anyway. And the very popular LSWCHP 158 gr+P's found their way into most .38 Spl marked revolvers in the 80's regardless of size or if an alloy frame.

 

[Jim Watson]

SAAMI Reference: 750 fps (test barrel), 900 fps (vented barrel)

Since that is just precisely bass ackward, what are we to take the rest of this stuff to mean?
The standard PV test barrel for .38 Special is 7.7 inches.
The vented PV barrel has a 1.6" chamber to simulate a revolver cylinder, an .008" gap, and a 4" rifled barrel.

Never knew there was a 110 grain load in the '30s.

It does not show up in my 1939 Stoegers. If Mr Caswell was shooting it in 1940 it would seem to have been new on the market.


There may have been some sense in moderating .38 Special. OP75 has written of stretched revolver frames from even standard velocity ammo.
I think Ted Murphy was on his third M&P when it took +P to make Minor power factor in IDPA. They have since reduced the Rev power floor from 125 to 105. My usual midrange wadcutter load is pf 107, how convenient.

I went round and round over the low pressure US .357 Magnum vs Manly European stuff. Strangely enough, when I looked on the home market sites, that 3000 bar (43500 psi) ammo was still only showing about 1270 fps CIP.

 

[rockquarry]

Yeah, his info. always comes up when you search for this topic. Wasn't sure if he was still with us, I guess not.

What actually motivated me to ask AI, was the constant debate about +P ammo in older small frame guns like Det. Spl., Cobra's, J frames, etc. It seems it was probably just done without the "over thinking it" that is common today. And the guns could handle it, as long as it wasn't a steady diet of +P. But most non-shooters including a lot of LEO, probably won't shoot that much anyway. And the very popular LSWCHP 158 gr+P's found their way into most .38 Spl marked revolvers in the 80's regardless of size or if an alloy frame.

Call it "overthinking" if you wish, but it's obsessive behavior and common these days. Around the time of the +P designation and for at least a few years prior to it's introduction, things were looked at far more simply; maybe we were uninformed but I never heard of a .38 blowing up or being damaged in any way by using stout ammo. This includes J-frames, Airweights, Detective Specials, Cobras, etc. All were marked .38 Special on the barrels with no warnings or disclaimers. Folks were expected to use good judgement.

If the gun said .38 Special and the ammo said .38 Special all was well in paradise. You fired that ammo in that gun. Fortunately the obsessive folks weren't born yet or were in their infancy. Among the most popular ammos for .38 revolvers was the Super Vel 110 grain HP, but there were at least two other commercial ammos that were hotter; loaded to higher pressure.

I don't think many shooters during that era shot as much as they do now, but that's only a guess. Maybe that would account for guns not being damaged by hot ammo. Again, a guess...

 

[heeter3]

Thank you Dump1567.

 

[Rock185]

Come to think of it, I don't recall hearing of .38 Spcl. revolvers blowing up, other than with some reloader's double charge, etc. I was shooting with old friends years ago. The husband reloaded all the couple's ammo, including lightly loaded .38 Spcl. for his wife to use. One day, she was shooting her regular reloads, when there was a significantly louder boom from one round. Husband said he must have double charged that one, I wholeheartedly agreed. Fortunately, she was shooting a model 28, and no harm done to revolver, shooter or bystanders...

 

[Dave Lively]

One other load I was always puzzled about is the .38 Super-Vel. I have a box here somewhere, but can't located it as I write this. Anyone know what the selling-point was of it? Obviously it was aclaimed to be "faster."

Looking at the article linked below Super Vel used a combination of light bullets and above SAAMI spec pressure to get reliable expansion at a time when expanding bullets from a 38 rarely expanded. Out of 4 inch model 19 the 110 grain 38+P load produced 293 ft-lbs of energy which is pretty good for a 38 +P. It also averaged about 10% over the SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Also interesting is that the same load produced 1428 fps or 497 ft-lbs out of Black Hills 8 inch test barrel. In the 80s I used to read a lot of reviews in gun magazines that included a line that started with "While I am sure this ammo produced its rated velocity in their test barrel in my gun . . .". Gun magazines never bit the hand that fed them back then.

Given what was available back when Super Vel was in business their ammo would have been a good choice. Jacketed hollow point bullets that reliably expanded at regular 38 velocity did not exist. Being able to get reliable expansion with adequate penetration without the blast and recoil of a 357 would made their 38 ammo an appealing option.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/the-legend-of-super-vel-ammo/137747

 

[Dump1567]

Looking at the article linked below Super Vel used a combination of light bullets and above SAAMI spec pressure to get reliable expansion at a time when expanding bullets from a 38 rarely expanded. Out of 4 inch model 19 the 110 grain 38+P load produced 293 ft-lbs of energy which is pretty good for a 38 +P. It also averaged about 10% over the SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Also interesting is that the same load produced 1428 fps or 497 ft-lbs out of Black Hills 8 inch test barrel. In the 80s I used to read a lot of reviews in gun magazines that included a line that started with "While I am sure this ammo produced its rated velocity in their test barrel in my gun . . .". Gun magazines never bit the hand that fed them back then.

Given what was available back when Super Vel was in business their ammo would have been a good choice. Jacketed hollow point bullets that reliably expanded at regular 38 velocity did not exist. Being able to get reliable expansion with adequate penetration without the blast and recoil of a 357 would made their 38 ammo an appealing option.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/the-legend-of-super-vel-ammo/137747

Super Vel is actually a company again and making ammo. Here's there 38 Special +P 90 gr. JHP "Super Snub". Not sure if it's any better than any other SD bullet available on the market now?

38 Special +P 90 gr. JHP "Super Snub"

38 Special +P 90 gr. JHP "Super Snub"

"Super Snub" is specifically tailored for snubnose revolvers, launching a 90 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point at over 1,300 fps from a 1 7/8 inch S&W J-frame barrel. "Super Snub" performs exceptionally well in ballistic ordnance gelatin, the only valid test of terminal performance. Our Jacketed Hollow Points typically expand to over .60 caliber with 95+ percent weight retention and penetration from 10 to 13 inches. This is "the" load for J-frames and other snubbies!

Ballistics Data

• Bullet: 90 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point
• Velocity: 1,300 fps
• Muzzle Energy: 338 ft/lbs

 

[rockquarry]

Looking at the article linked below Super Vel used a combination of light bullets and above SAAMI spec pressure to get reliable expansion at a time when expanding bullets from a 38 rarely expanded. Out of 4 inch model 19 the 110 grain 38+P load produced 293 ft-lbs of energy which is pretty good for a 38 +P. It also averaged about 10% over the SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Also interesting is that the same load produced 1428 fps or 497 ft-lbs out of Black Hills 8 inch test barrel. In the 80s I used to read a lot of reviews in gun magazines that included a line that started with "While I am sure this ammo produced its rated velocity in their test barrel in my gun . . .". Gun magazines never bit the hand that fed them back then.

Given what was available back when Super Vel was in business their ammo would have been a good choice. Jacketed hollow point bullets that reliably expanded at regular 38 velocity did not exist. Being able to get reliable expansion with adequate penetration without the blast and recoil of a 357 would made their 38 ammo an appealing option.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/the-legend-of-super-vel-ammo/137747

Looking at the article linked below Super Vel used a combination of light bullets and above SAAMI spec pressure to get reliable expansion at a time when expanding bullets from a 38 rarely expanded. Out of 4 inch model 19 the 110 grain 38+P load produced 293 ft-lbs of energy which is pretty good for a 38 +P. It also averaged about 10% over the SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Also interesting is that the same load produced 1428 fps or 497 ft-lbs out of Black Hills 8 inch test barrel. In the 80s I used to read a lot of reviews in gun magazines that included a line that started with "While I am sure this ammo produced its rated velocity in their test barrel in my gun . . .". Gun magazines never bit the hand that fed them back then.

Given what was available back when Super Vel was in business their ammo would have been a good choice. Jacketed hollow point bullets that reliably expanded at regular 38 velocity did not exist. Being able to get reliable expansion with adequate penetration without the blast and recoil of a 357 would made their 38 ammo an appealing option.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/the-legend-of-super-vel-ammo/137747

In contrast to the cited Sweeney article, there are two feature-length pieces, one in HANDLOADER #26 and the other in HANDLOADER #27 along these lines. #26 article is titled "Duplicating Those Hot Factory .38s" and in #27 is "Pressures of Those Hot .38s". Since we're on the subject of factory ammo here, the #27 article is more relevant.

These articles were published in 1970 when Super Vel ammo popularity was at its height. Lee Jurras, Super Vel owner did the pressure testing for a variety of the hottest factory .38s around at the time. I realize the conspiracy eccentrics will visualize conflicting interests since the Super Vel owner did the testing, but Neal Knox (easily one of the best and most reputable gun editors ever) participated in the work including putting the article together. That certainly lends credence to the published results.

Granted, today's pressure testing method have improved over what they were, but the results of Jurras' testing at the time showed the 110 grain Super Vel HP at 19,000, near the bottom of the high performance .38 loads. Norma's 110 grain JHP topped the list with a pressure of just over 27,000.

This information was taken from the actual article, not an Internet source.

 

[Doug M.]

If have seen old adds posted here that claimed that .38-44 (pretty stout) could be used even in smaller than K frames (both S&W and Colt). I am pretty sure that could be a bit more recoil than would be enjoyable. Frankly, bullet configuration is generally more important than pure velocity. 158 grain RNL will suck and is always a poor choice at any velocity. A good SWC, even at standard pressure/velocity will be pretty decent. Bill Jordan pointed out that most (men, remember the times) shooters were at their limit with standard .38 loads.

 

[James K]

I've shot +P out of my 38/44 Outdoorsman and you can certainly tell the difference, but the gun handles it no problem.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have read, sorry, no literature cite, that SuperVel used a slightly undersize bullet to get down the barrel faster.

I read that at one time the 110 gr CorBon was very hot loaded but that upon publication of the article, they dialed it back to mere +P.

 

[rockquarry]

I have read, sorry, no literature cite, that SuperVel used a slightly undersize bullet to get down the barrel faster.

I read that at one time the 110 gr CorBon was very hot loaded but that upon publication of the article, they dialed it back to mere +P.

In with some reloading stuff I bought years ago was a box of 110 grain Super Vel bullets. I didn't know at the time that Super Vel even sold bullets as components. I couldn't load them with the .38 Special dies I had as the bullets were far from snug when seated. I measured them but don't recall the diameter, probably .355" or .356". I don't think the undersized bullets had much to do with velocity (or accuracy), but they probably kept pressures down.

 

[Dump1567]

If have seen old adds posted here that claimed that .38-44 (pretty stout) could be used even in smaller than K frames (both S&W and Colt). I am pretty sure that could be a bit more recoil than would be enjoyable. Frankly, bullet configuration is generally more important than pure velocity. 158 grain RNL will suck and is always a poor choice at any velocity. A good SWC, even at standard pressure/velocity will be pretty decent. Bill Jordan pointed out that most (men, remember the times) shooters were at their limit with standard .38 loads.

I have this old box of High Velocity marked .38 Spl. Unfortunately it just had brass spent cases in it when I got it. Here's the warning on the back and the recommended guns it can be used in. But I'm sure many found there way into smaller frame guns.

 

[halfmoonclip]

the members of SAAMI have recently adopted the practice of adding a +P to the headstamp of the cartridge cases

For reloaders, do the +P brass have different volume, due to thicker brass in the case?
For the OP, thanks for your work.

Moon

 

[alwslate]

Contrary to what some folks like to say the standard .38 spl 158 gr RN lead has never been loaded to +P pressures or velocity.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, in strict modern SAAMI nomenclature, but ballistically the .38 HV sure was.

 

[Tim357]

Contrary to what some folks like to say the standard .38 spl 158 gr RN lead has never been loaded to +P pressures or velocity.

WW loaded 158LRN to +P at one time. I don't have the picture with me but it was features in one of G&A's handgun special editions. Sometime back in late 80's IIRC

 

[alwslate]

For reloaders, do the +P brass have different volume, due to thicker brass in the case?
For the OP, thanks for your work.

Moon

According to Brian Pearce the std and +P marked .38 spl cases are the same except for the marking.