.38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load

[Matt_X]

I'm not an expert. Not many true experts in this field. At best people can do is relates what our experiences and readings are, and hopefully help each other seperate marketing and misleading information from info that is more likely to be relevant. There's a reason there are many options in the marketplace - one of which is that there is no single product clearly better than the others.

I completely agree with your assessment that it makes little sense that 110 gr is better matched for 4" barrels. In fact, my conclusions are the opposite. I will use a 110 gr HP or FTX in a standard pressure 2" revolver because (a) the 110 is more likely to achieve the velocity needed (b) reduced recoil and quicker follow up. Hornady's Critical Defense seems to be pretty good in this niche (see Lucky Gunner, Paul Harrell, etc) .

You've probably come across the assertion that for a hollow point to expand, one of the requirements is that it hits at sufficient velocity. With a 4" barrel and +P loading, that should be less of an issue.

For you, I would think the availability ought to be an important consideration. If the ammo is so hard to obtain it wll become so precious you won't want to practice with it at all. That's another disadvantage with the 110 gr. It is not easily to find a target or practice cartridge with a 110 gr bullet. Closest is seems to be 125 gr. FMJ.

A few months ago Underwood soft lead SWHP was on sale. Its available in both standard pressure and +P. It ought to be similar to what you were originally asking for. BUT Underwood is a small brand and I didn't mention it earlier because its probably going to be difficult to buy where you are. Its not quite as expensive as Buffalo Bore.

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I forgot to mention the barrel length of my m27. It is a .4-inch model.

Speaking about the barrel lengh. I come across some opinions that heavier 158 grain rounds are better for short barrel lengh while for 4 inch plus range some ligher 38 special loads might be better suited.

in the lighter 38 special balll park I might be a oble to obtain some 125 grain sjhp round.

I am not sure if the opinions available only about the bullet weights and barre lenght have some merrit or not.

Just want to mention it because this opinion does not make much sense to me as a lay person.

As far as I know, there was time when there was a 110 grain JHP load in 38 special (called treasury load), which had quite a good reputation in some tactical settings, but I do not believe it was as effective as the 158 grain load in 38 special..

 

[WR Moore]

OK, we're drifting way back in time here but I guess some history is in order. The "Treasury load" (and some others) was a work around for a "progressive" political concern that shooting criminals with MAGNUM ammunition was cruel and unusual punishment forbidden by law.

The work around for this was to produce ammunition in .38 Special cases, but loaded to higher pressures and to be used ONLY in .357 Magnum firearms. [Yes, we issue .357 firearms, but we only load them with .38 Spl ammunition ] Said ammunition was produced under contract only after hold harmless agreements were signed by the various agencies that used them. Just in case the ammo was used in .38 Spl guns-and it often was. This lead to the development of the +P pressure rating* for several handgun cartridges.

I never used any of this ammunition, but my recollection is that it had some of the issues of the Silvertip round used in the infamous Miami FBI shootout. That is, insufficient penetration in some cases. As pointed out immediately above, this might be compensated for by short barrels.

*And for 9 mm, which got US 9 mm+P up to the ballistic delivery of much European ammunition produced under CIP standards.

 

[BKLooney]

Here ya go

Cheap 38 Special Ammo For Sale - 158 gr +P LSWCHP Federal Law Enforcement Ammunition In Stock - 5f0 rounds

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

As far as I know, there was time when there was a 110 grain JHP load in 38 special (called treasury load), which had quite a good reputation in some tactical settings, but I do not believe it was as effective as the 158 grain load in 38 special..

There are differences because the Treasury Dept...US Secret Service...and the FBI had different criteria for choosing ammunition. The FBI places importance on various factors they feel are most important to their needs...defeating auto glass while not defecting or losing effectiveness is one of the factors. The Treasury didn't use the same criteria.

What any law enforcement agency uses as criteria for their specific purposes may or may not be relevant to an individual citizen. Many agencies choose the same brand of ammo..."Low Bid". They pick a round based upon what they've always done and get the best price or sometimes they'll piggy back on a larger agency's contract for the better price regardless of the round's relevance to their needs.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I never used any of this ammunition, but my recollection is that it had some of the issues of the Silvertip round used in the infamous Miami FBI shootout. That is, insufficient penetration in some cases. As pointed out immediately above, this might be compensated for by short barrels.

The 9mm Silvertip that got a bad rap after the Miami Massacre was unfortunate. The bullet performed exactly as it was designed to do as desired by the FBI. What happened was the bad guy (Platt) the FBI agent shot with the Silvertip was a crossing shot...through his arm rather than a frontal shot. It penetrated exactly as far as designed...destroyed one lung but stopped an inch short of his heart...a fatal wound but not immediately so. If the shot had been a frontal shot it would have struck his heart and would have been immediately fatal or nearly so.

After the event was when the Feebs started doing some serious study into what makes the preferred round for them...and their choice following that were suspect...their 10mm Lite choice for example. Blaming the Silvertip gave them the ability to avoid public disclosure of poor tactics and situational awareness on the parts of some of he agents involved.

 

[BRHP]

I believe that Snidley meant to say the training received by the FBI agents did not enable them to handle the situation better.

 

[WR Moore]

The 9mm Silvertip that got a bad rap after the Miami Massacre was unfortunate. The bullet performed exactly as it was designed to do as desired by the FBI. What happened was the bad guy (Platt) the FBI agent shot with the Silvertip was a crossing shot...through his arm rather than a frontal shot. It penetrated exactly as far as designed...destroyed one lung but stopped an inch short of his heart...a fatal wound but not immediately so. I.

Actually, the round severed the brachial artery. Platt was a dead man walking-and shooting-while bleeding to death. Agent Mireles did a book (FBI Miami Firefight) on the incident that pretty much lays the whole thing out.

 

[agent00]

Sorry for being late. Thanks a lot for the intersting historical information. Was not aware of the origin story of the Treasury load.

It also makes sense what @SnidelyWhiplash said. The requirments for law einforcement ammo does not always coincide with the needs of the average civilian.

As a resident of a appartment tactical pentetration is not important for home defense need. I need effective short range sd load does penetrate enough to do job without the risk of over penetration. Something in the ball park of the 158 grain swc rounds or a 125 grain sjhp should fit the bill perfectly I think.

ps: It is interesting how many not so known loads you can find here in Austria when you just dig deep enough.

I was able to locate some of the classic federal 38g rounds. They are cheaper

 

[sniper]

We have been too much inundated with "Information" that we sometimes overlook the facts: The Lead Semi Wadcutter "FBI" loads of the past are very effective...that's why they are still around. One shot stops are not the rule; far from it! Years of statistics show only about 20% or so of Civilian, including Police, bullets fired in anger actually hit where they are intended to.
Recoil has a real negative effect, and is cumulative. The super-light and compact, less than a pound revolvers and pistols that are in such demand today, even if loaded with mild ammunition, are more than many of us can handle proficiently, and most expanding bullets must reach a predetermined velocity, often in excess of 800 fps. to expand. If one of the super-light guns is loaded with hotter "defense" ammo, the safest person on the block may be the one shot at. I don't advocate a .22 caliber gun except in the case of physical or monetary inability to handle anything heavier, and I feel that the .380, despite its gaining popularity and better rounds for it may be marginal. Just a lot to consider in the tide of "LIGHTER, ONE-SHOT STOP PENETRATION OVERPENETRATION COMFORTABLE CONCEALED CARRY" information we get from "Experts" that we are subjected to from various media. No wonder so many people are confused!

 

[rwsmith]

Instead of starting pistol caliber/load wars the takeaway for Dade, North Hollywood and other shootouts is that agents needed carbines and rifles.

The distances encounted in civilian SD situations aren't the same as LE encounters. A pistol is appropriate because at close range it's feasible to shoot and hit until the threat is stopped. The agents in the big shootouts with pistols could only land a few hits with pistols. Even blasting away with more than a few rounds of buckshot at close range was ineffective.

Use a 158 gr. SWC +P, or a 110 grn JHP whatever works for you. I prefer standard loads with medium weight for caliber bullets in a JHP that's likely to expand and penetrate well.

The FBI, as well as other LE agencies provide valuable information to us civilians, who lack data to make the best choices. But not being an LE agent I tune my needs to what I'm most likely to encounter. I think that TODAY, the advances in technology have increased the effectiveness and reliability of JHPs which is why most LE agencies use them now rather than SWCs. There's nothing wrong or bad about SWCs, if they are a good fit with your philosophies about SD and CC. I also think that the adage, "Carry what you shoot well" applies in any case.

 

[Rick H.]

I was a working street officer when the so-called Miami FBI situation took place, as well as the North Hollywood situation. Both these incidents rocked law enforcement to its foundations and gave pause to what we might encounter in our daily patrol functions. There was also the Newhall Incident that was a few years before I started in law enforcement. All of these were tragic incidents that led to a self examination by many departments as to tactics and equipment. The after-action investigations were typical and had the expected results. Blame ran all over the place and many officers were left wondering about not only their department training for these events, but their equipment as well. It would be many more years unfortunately before law enforcement learned from these events and made some serious changes. I could go on and on, but you get the point I hope.

After all is said and done regarding choice of ammunition for a given firearm and with old age rapidly approaching for me I have come to realize that the most powerful ammunition isn't the problem, it's being able to hit what I need to hit. The most effective load or bullet in existence isn't going to help you one bit if you can't hit your adversary who is no doubt shooting at you, or threatening to do so. I don't carry a revolver anymore and my weapon of choice for concealed carry is a 9mm or .380. Now neither one may be the best in ballistic effectiveness, but I shoot them the best and consistently hit what I am shooting at. I am more concerned these days with first strike capabilities and putting a .38 caliber sized hole in the bad guy than if I am using an ultra-powerful load. 9 inches or 16 inches of penetration with double caliber bullet expansion is secondary to hitting my target. Head shots are great "IF" you can make them 100% of the time otherwise you are wasting ammunition. I still train primarily for center mass hits.

The best advice I could give to the OP is shoot whatever ammunition you can find in your home country and select the one you shoot best and most consistently with. Don't worry about three letter alphabet soup loads or loads that have special names attached to them. Use the ammunition you are most proficient with and practice alot with it. If your range allows it, practice moving drills with your chosen ammunition and move to cover or at least concealment. If nothing else a simple post will work for this just practice getting behind it. Good tactics work to your advantage more than ammunition choice. Even going prone can help in a real life shooting situation. Just remember, ammunition selection is just one small piece of the puzzle to survival.

Rick H.

 

[rockquarry]

I was a working street officer when the so-called Miami FBI situation took place, as well as the North Hollywood situation. Both these incidents rocked law enforcement to its foundations and gave pause to what we might encounter in our daily patrol functions. There was also the Newhall Incident that was a few years before I started in law enforcement. All of these were tragic incidents that led to a self examination by many departments as to tactics and equipment. The after-action investigations were typical and had the expected results. Blame ran all over the place and many officers were left wondering about not only their department training for these events, but their equipment as well. It would be many more years unfortunately before law enforcement learned from these events and made some serious changes. I could go on and on, but you get the point I hope.

After all is said and done regarding choice of ammunition for a given firearm and with old age rapidly approaching for me I have come to realize that the most powerful ammunition isn't the problem, it's being able to hit what I need to hit. The most effective load or bullet in existence isn't going to help you one bit if you can't hit your adversary who is no doubt shooting at you, or threatening to do so. I don't carry a revolver anymore and my weapon of choice for concealed carry is a 9mm or .380. Now neither one may be the best in ballistic effectiveness, but I shoot them the best and consistently hit what I am shooting at. I am more concerned these days with first strike capabilities and putting a .38 caliber sized hole in the bad guy than if I am using an ultra-powerful load. 9 inches or 16 inches of penetration with double caliber bullet expansion is secondary to hitting my target. Head shots are great "IF" you can make them 100% of the time otherwise you are wasting ammunition. I still train primarily for center mass hits.

The best advice I could give to the OP is shoot whatever ammunition you can find in your home country and select the one you shoot best and most consistently with. Don't worry about three letter alphabet soup loads or loads that have special names attached to them. Use the ammunition you are most proficient with and practice alot with it. If your range allows it, practice moving drills with your chosen ammunition and move to cover or at least concealment. If nothing else a simple post will work for this just practice getting behind it. Good tactics work to your advantage more than ammunition choice. Even going prone can help in a real life shooting situation. Just remember, ammunition selection is just one small piece of the puzzle to survival.

Rick H.

Certainly a good post based on good sense. Regrettably, shooing skills ands using the best ammunition for the shooter aren't of great priority to many.

 

[14daMoney]

I'll say this - what you carry versus what impact it will have on each particular target subject WILL vary greatly. Just because you 5K the target doesn't always guarantee they will fall down and stay down.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

"Aim small, miss small" is a well-known principle in marksmanship suggesting that focusing on a specific, small target will lead to more accurate and consistent results, even if you miss slightly. It's about narrowing your focus to improve your chances of hitting your target.

 

[rockquarry]

For those few who have an interest in marksmanship, the "aim small, miss small" rule is very true.

 

[Dhawk46]

Carry what you are comfortable and can score hits with. Focus on your front sight and PRESS the trigger.

 

[ArtyM]

You need to determine what shoots well in your firearm - in terms of point of impact with fixed sights and accuracy. Loads like the Remington 125 gr Golden Saber, Speer 135 Gr Gold Dot short barrel, and the Hornady 110 gr standard and +p 38 specials are all good. See what works best for you in your revolver. What shoots well in one may not in another. I find the Federal 158 LHP is accurate, but does not expand in many online reports. The Remington load expands well, but not accurate for me. It flattened in phone books. You just need to try loads out, but I recommend one of the jacketed loads that I mentioned.

 

[decuerno]

… Full mag loads would be a bit overkill.
…

IF …"overkill"… were even possible…. For self-defense….Isn't that exactly what you Want.???

 

[Rust E. Badge]

I am looking for new ammo to try out in my smith wesson model 27-2.

For self defense purposes I prefer to use 38 special rounds indoors for self defense. Full mag loads would be a bit overkill.

The .38 Special LSWCHP +P should offer more than enough performance needed.

As a history buff I am interested in .38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load.

I wonder if any of the available loads are close to the "original" specs or not?

No such animal as "overkill" in a gunfight, only in your mind or opinions of those who have only experienced imaginary deadly engagements.

 

[Sebago Son]

Of late I have been shooting the PPU / Privi 158 gr LSWHP version. It is advertized a little faster at 900 FPS and while I have not put it over the Chronograph yet, it feels a little hotter. My 3" 36, my 2" 60 and my 4" model 10 all love it. I got a great price at Midway of around $24 a box. Since my last purchase, Target Sports has it listed at $19!

 

[REParker]

Excellent post! Exceptionally clear and directly to the point of this discussion.

I agree. The list of items I've read, and believe, in order of importance when it comes to tactical/SD encounters is Bullet Placement is first, followed by Penetration. Everything else falls under the heading of Dumb Luck. I tend to lean on a reasonably penetrating round (~10+") with good expansion...at least 50% greater than caliber...but that's on me. I don't envision myself getting into it with drug crazed maniacs or a compliment of armed political zealots (not that it's not possible!). My concerns more address the assaulter who'd rather accomplish his goals without getting shot at all and views holes suddenly appearing in his body as immediate cause for alarm. Also, the through-and-through potential of some rounds, both in targets and walls, is something to be avoided as much as possible, IMO. I'm not a cop or the FBI and even in my work role these considerations are important. Sorry to be so long winded but this is an interesting and complicated topic, worthy of serious consideration. Ed

 

[roninflag]

i have shot a lot of game with the .357 . i prefer jacketed hollow points. 110, 125, or 140 in that order. the same with defense ammo, firing leaded ammo in my gun leaves a gray soot on it.

 

[38SPL HV]

I like any of the Fed/Rem/Win FBI loads …Remington's version probably the best one due to its softer metal.

 

[Riposte1]

I think most of the current FBI loads by Remington, Winchester, and Federal are pretty close to original ballistics.

I don't, but perhaps I'm nit picking.

We had a chronograph availble to our little group in the mid 1970s - Winchester FBI load got over 900 fps from a 4" S&W M-10 heavy barrel - fast forward to today, ant it gets 804 fps - but I should point out that is a different chrono and a different gun, same barrel length - so it might be fairly close. BTW Federal FBI loads of the last 20 years or so get 790 fps - same gun, same chrono and do not expand in either water nor gel, neither does Remington the Winchester does.

Likely a bad guy could not tell the difference.

Then again, I have clocked 1935 .357 Magnum factory ammo (158 SWC - gas checked) at 1550 fps - today it goes the mid 1200 fps range from the same maker (and longer barrel).

I should point out that modern factory loads can vary a LOT - I have two boxes of Federal .357 Magnum 125 gr. JHP - different lot numbers - on the same day, same gun, one clocked 1450 fps and the other lot clocked 1270 fps!

A good reason to test a few rounds of every box and good reason to buy "serious" ammo in case lots!

Riposte

 

[rockquarry]

I don't, but perhaps I'm nit picking.

We had a chronograph availble to our little group in the mid 1970s - Winchester FBI load got over 900 fps from a 4" S&W M-10 heavy barrel - fast forward to today, ant it gets 804 fps - but I should point out that is a different chrono and a different gun, same barrel length - so it might be fairly close. BTW Federal FBI loads of the last 20 years or so get 790 fps - same gun, same chrono and do not expand in either water nor gel, neither does Remington the Winchester does.

Likely a bad guy could not tell the difference.

Then again, I have clocked 1935 .357 Magnum factory ammo (158 SWC - gas checked) at 1550 fps - today it goes the mid 1200 fps range from the same maker (and longer barrel).

I should point out that modern factory loads can vary a LOT - I have two boxes of Federal .357 Magnum 125 gr. JHP - different lot numbers - on the same day, same gun, one clocked 1450 fps and the other lot clocked 1270 fps!

A good reason to test a few rounds of every box and good reason to buy "serious" ammo in case lots!

Riposte

See post #9 regarding Federal ballistics. I think they're pretty close to where they should be.